Catholic University in Belgium Sacks Lecturer Who Called Abortion the Murder of an Innocent Person

[Thomas_White]

Yes. Do you think he advanced the pro-life cause by calling the relevant women’s Murfderers? Do you see the Church adopt that approach from the pulpit or in other fora.

Ps. I am neutral on the question of whether dismissal was appropriate, given an insufficient picture of the events.

I agree the circumstances are unclear. In general, I doubt that those of a particular ideology, including feminism, are likely to be dissuaded from their views by any reasoned argument. If that’s what happened in this instance, i.e., that ideologues were ready to pounce, the teacher would have been far better off if he did not stray from his subject.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

As ugly as it may seem, women do have that autonomy.

Women have autonomy in the same way a serial killer or a rapist has autonomy. One is physically capable of perpetrating acts of immense evil in this life, for years on end, and getting away with it. It is only in the next life that divine justice comes crashing down on the perpetrator’s head.

If the university ‘respects’ the autonomy of a woman who aborts her child, then it must ‘respect’ the autonomy of a drug pusher, a wifebeater, and a sex-slave merchant. The fact that the law permits women to kill their unborn children does not make that act one millimeter more legitimate and ‘respectable’ than crimes still forbidden by law.

That fact does not prevent exposing Catholic principles, which only a fool would do in the manner this lecturer appears to have adopted. It is not the usual practice of the Church (charged with moral teaching) to trumpet “abortion is murder and those women who have committed it are murderers”. Perhaps this is because, like this university, the Church is not sufficiently “Catholic”? Or perhaps because the Church recognizes the folly of such an approach?

Why is the lecturer a fool for teaching the plain truth?* And the Church has trumpeted the fact that abortion is murder - go read the catechism.

Better still, read Canon Law. A woman who aborts her child is a murderer and subject to excommunication: Canon 1398 - “a person who procures a successful abortion incurs an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication.” This means that at the very moment that the abortion is successfully accomplished, the woman and all formal conspirators are excommunicated. It’s not an ‘ordinary’ little mortal sin.

There may be some extenuating circumstances like fear or family pressure that diminish her culpability, but she remains responsible for committing a particularly evil act.

That’s the Church’s position. The fact that some churchmen try to gloss over it is strictly irrelevant.

*Because the secular social contract has determined that abortion is not morally wrong and hence it is not permitted to question it in mainstream social intercourse. One may only offer a contrary “opinion” from the social sidelines whilst in practice ‘respecting’ the established norm. No?

 

[Rau]

Women have autonomy in the same way a serial killer or a rapist has autonomy…If the university ‘respects’ the autonomy of a woman who aborts her child, then it must ‘respect’ the autonomy of a drug pusher, a wifebeater, and a sex-slave merchant.

Justin - this is abject nonsense. It is entirely appropriate to distinguish immoral and illegal from immoral and legal. The character of autonomy is entirely different.

Why is the lecturer a fool for teaching the plain truth? And the Church has trumpeted the fact that abortion is murder - go read the catechism.

As you know Justin, I pointed repeatedly to context. The lecturer would have come to no grief had he published a journal article covering the same ground as the Catechism. He’d have come to no grief had he sought to educate his students (presuming this was relevant to the course material at hand) about the teaching of the Church. "The Catholic Church, in its moral teaching, holds that abortion…etc. And modern Judaism holds that… etc. ] Try and see how context and means makes the difference between appropriate and inappropriate behaviour. And if that is not possible - be guided by the behaviour of our Church leaders themselves.

 

[Rose71]

I wish we could knock on the head this deluded idea that abortion is a ‘women’s issue’.
Are all aborted babies female? Are all aborted babies conceived by Immaculate Conception?

A decision about the future of an unborn child is a decision for BOTH parents to make on behalf of the innocent party: their child - who also has as much right to a life as they do.

When I was at university, it was taken for granted that lecturers would challenge perceptions and throw out some extreme views to fuel our thirst for learning and constructive debate (although calling abortion ‘murder’ is hardly an extreme view for a Catholic)

I dread to think how these precious little students will fare in the real world when they find people might (gasp) disagree with their views!

 

[Thomas_White]

I wish we could knock on the head this deluded idea that abortion is a ‘women’s issue’.
Are all aborted babies female? Are all aborted babies conceived by Immaculate Conception?

Of course abortion is a women’s issue, and in particular it is an issue of the strident feminists who are forever ranting about “reproductive health” and “a woman’s right to control her own body”, as well as other various euphemisms for abortion (i.e., the murder of an innocent child).

 

[Pulvis]

Women have autonomy in the same way a serial killer or a rapist has autonomy. One is physically capable of perpetrating acts of immense evil in this life, for years on end, and getting away with it. It is only in the next life that divine justice comes crashing down on the perpetrator’s head.

If the university ‘respects’ the autonomy of a woman who aborts her child, then it must ‘respect’ the autonomy of a drug pusher, a wifebeater, and a sex-slave merchant. The fact that the law permits women to kill their unborn children does not make that act one millimeter more legitimate and ‘respectable’ than crimes still forbidden by law.

Why is the lecturer a fool for teaching the plain truth?* And the Church has trumpeted the fact that abortion is murder - go read the catechism.

Better still, read Canon Law. A woman who aborts her child is a murderer and subject to excommunication: Canon 1398 - “a person who procures a successful abortion incurs an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication.” This means that at the very moment that the abortion is successfully accomplished, the woman and all formal conspirators are excommunicated. It’s not an ‘ordinary’ little mortal sin.

There may be some extenuating circumstances like fear or family pressure that diminish her culpability, but she remains responsible for committing a particularly evil act.

That’s the Church’s position. The fact that some churchmen try to gloss over it is strictly irrelevant.

*Because the secular social contract has determined that abortion is not morally wrong and hence it is not permitted to question it in mainstream social intercourse. One may only offer a contrary “opinion” from the social sidelines whilst in practice ‘respecting’ the established norm. No?

 

[Rose71]

Of course abortion is a women’s issue, and in particular it is an issue of the strident feminists who are forever ranting about “reproductive health” and “a woman’s right to control her own body”, as well as other various euphemisms for abortion (i.e., the murder of an innocent child).

I disagree with you because I do not subscribe to the idea that it is a ‘women’s issue’. It has been hi-jacked by the strident feminists, but not all women are strident feminists and more to the point, these strident feminists do not represent all women and have absolutely no right to claim that they do.

Abortion is an issue for everybody - regardless of gender. The sooner the media stops pandering to the idea that it’s just about women, the better (although, sadly, I can’t see them changing their tune soon)

 

[Thomas_White]

I disagree with you because I do not subscribe to the idea that it is a ‘women’s issue’. It has been hi-jacked by the strident feminists, but not all women are strident feminists and more to the point, these strident feminists do not represent all women and have absolutely no right to claim that they do.

Abortion is an issue for everybody - regardless of gender. The sooner the media stops pandering to the idea that it’s just about women, the better (although, sadly, I can’t see them changing their tune soon)

I agree that abortion is an issue for everybody, but nevertheless it is certainly a women’s issue that is hardly limited to strident feminists. Let’s face the simple truth: Men do not have abortions.

 

[Exsanguin8]

Men do not have abortions.

Men can grieve bitterly over the loss of their baby.

 

[commenter]

"In its statement, the famous traditionally Catholic university in Belgium stressed that abortion was legal in Belgium since 1990 and it respected women’s autonomy to opt for it. "
Posters are complaining that he had no right to inject abortion into a class where it, perhaps, did not exactly fit in. But why would a university inject the fact that abortion is ****legal ****into the debate about a lecturer? Isn’t that irrelevant to the Natural Law?

AFAIK the lecturer did not say abortion is illegal. So he did not lie. He said it was immoral, which it is according to Catholic teaching, which the university is required to uphold.

It is true that the bishops did not directly employ this person, so they are not directly accountable for his firing. But the bishops do, apparently, still list the university as Catholic in 2017. I am sure Louvain continues to get gifts, and students, choosing to go there because of its prior reputation as a Catholic institution.

This is a problem in the US. Bishops of the past proclaimed certain colleges as Catholic, when that statement used to be accurate. They are aware now this designation is no longer accurate, but the misperception continues. The continuing misperception does damage, as parents pay Catholic college tuition for what is now a public college education. Diocesan newspapers give faux catholic institutions free publicity, and Catholic high schools encourage students to go there, as if they were still Catholic.
The secular media loves to exploit this. Prolife is damaged by the silence.

I don’t blame the bishops for causing the secularization of Catholic institutions. I blame them for helping perpetuate the damaging inaccurate current labels.

 

[SuperLuigi]

That’s awful! A lot of surprising things are happening at Catholic universities these days.

And people will read these stories, blink at the screen a few times, and continue to support these universities.

Because the ultimate good in life is to ask “how’s school going, son”?

Oh, and it’s an “institution” with perm-pressed professionalism…ie “our university supports diversity and tolerance, yadda yadda ya.” Because that was the goal for every Catholic institution: making sure to collect and represent all different points of view that fir the mold of elite popular culture. That’s Jesus said “doesn’t matter what you do as long as you don’t hurt others”…Oh wait…

However, according to many Christian leaders, including some in the Catholic Church, such institutions can be blindly trusted, cos like, they don’t have the time (along with Catholic parents) to investigate.

The operate word describing this is scandal. No one talks about it anymore, and it’s easy to see why: no more easy money or gain in status. All those important things talked about in the Bible.

The best part in all of this for me is then getting messages from these same Christians of "why, I can’t believe this happened to my country!..they promised! they promised! :crying: and wondering why their children come home and lecture them on why they need to be more post-modern.

BTW, for those who will inevitably ask: NO ONE on this earth is above correction and can be wrong. So I’d advise avoiding the appeal to authority fallacy…

 

[SuperLuigi]

"In its statement, the famous traditionally Catholic university in Belgium stressed that abortion was legal in Belgium since 1990 and it respected women’s autonomy to opt for it. "
Posters are complaining that he had no right to inject abortion into a class where it, perhaps, did not exactly fit in. But why would a university inject the fact that abortion is ****legal ****into the debate about a lecturer? Isn’t that irrelevant to the Natural Law?

AFAIK the lecturer did not say abortion is illegal. So he did not lie. He said it was immoral, which it is according to Catholic teaching, which the university is required to uphold.

It is true that the bishops did not directly employ this person, so they are not directly accountable for his firing. But the bishops do, apparently, still list the university as Catholic in 2017. I am sure Louvain continues to get gifts, and students, choosing to go there because of its prior reputation as a Catholic institution.

This is a problem in the US. Bishops of the past proclaimed certain colleges as Catholic, when that statement used to be accurate. They are aware now this designation is no longer accurate, but the misperception continues. The continuing misperception does damage, as parents pay Catholic college tuition for what is now a public college education. Diocesan newspapers give faux catholic institutions free publicity, and Catholic high schools encourage students to go there, as if they were still Catholic.
The secular media loves to exploit this. Prolife is damaged by the silence.

I don’t blame the bishops for causing the secularization of Catholic institutions. I blame them for helping perpetuate the damaging inaccurate current labels.

A lot of Catholic parents and guardians need to do their homework on this stuff so at least everyone knows what they are expecting.

As I’ve said before a million times, we can’t afford to be “surprised” all of the time.

This is the information age and figuring this out isn’t rocket science.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Of course abortion is a women’s issue, and in particular it is an issue of the strident feminists who are forever ranting about “reproductive health” and “a woman’s right to control her own body”, as well as other various euphemisms for abortion (i.e., the murder of an innocent child).

Similar euphemism were applied to slavery and indentured servitude.

One does wonder if such things are human or property (here comes the magical word…) RIGHTS why such disguised rhetoric is needed to prop them up.

 

[commenter]

A lot of Catholic parents and guardians need to do their homework on this stuff so at least everyone knows what they are expecting.

As I’ve said before a million times, we can’t afford to be “surprised” all of the time.

This is the information age and figuring this out isn’t rocket science.

It is hard for parents and high school students to “do their homework” on this if the colleges claim to be Catholic, if they dust off the rarely used chapel for parent weekend, and if the diocese itself prints flattering articles about the college in the diocesan newspaper. You are right, it is not “rocket science” ****if ****you know there is a problem, but people don’t know there ****is ****a problem.

By the time most parents and students realize the college isn’t really Catholic, the student is well along in the college time.
Parents and alumni don’t know they even need to research this issue. Alumni keep giving money to colleges that were Catholic when they did attend their, though not now.

At least in the US, the Cardinal Newman Society prints a valuable Guide to Catholic Colleges and also high schools, check out their website. Getting that Guide into the local diocesan newspapers and high school guidance offices should be an urgent priority.

 

[Rose71]

I agree that abortion is an issue for everybody, but nevertheless it is certainly a women’s issue that is hardly limited to strident feminists. Let’s face the simple truth: Men do not have abortions.

And another simple truth: it would be impossible to carry out an abortion without an unborn child being present (which can be male, female, or (rarely) intersex. This state of events would not be possible without (name removed by moderator)ut from…a man.

I can see what you’re saying here, but as a woman and a Catholic, I absolutely cringe when anyone refers to murder of either sex as a ‘women’s issue’ because it does suggest women have somehow got more right to an opinion, or that men are somehow less affected (which is unfair to the men who didn’t want to lose a child, or might look back and bitterly regret being complicit in aborting a child and terminally unfair to the poor baby boys who never even make it out alive)

I don’t know what the law is in the USA, but I wish there was a law in the UK where the father could veto a termination.

Another concept (courtesy of the ‘sisterhood’) that needs knocking on the head is ‘falling pregnant’. A woman becomes pregnant because she has sexual intercourse with a man (usually!) It isn’t an illness, an accident or an inconvenience. It’s a wonderful gift and creating a new person is not something that should be seen as an unfortunate side effect of enjoying a bit of slap & tickle.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Rose71 and Justin Swanton.
:clapping:

Great posts.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

Justin - this is abject nonsense. It is entirely appropriate to distinguish immoral and illegal from immoral and legal. The character of autonomy is entirely different.

Legal/illegal is entirely irrelevant to the question of immorality. I realize of course that a positivist attitude towards morality makes moral or at least acceptable an act that is in itself immoral, so long as it is legal. But that has nothing to do with Catholicism.

As you know Justin, I pointed repeatedly to context. The lecturer would have come to no grief had he published a journal article covering the same ground as the Catechism. He’d have come to no grief had he sought to educate his students (presuming this was relevant to the course material at hand) about the teaching of the Church. "The Catholic Church, in its moral teaching, holds that abortion…etc. And modern Judaism holds that… etc. ] Try and see how context and means makes the difference between appropriate and inappropriate behaviour. And if that is not possible - be guided by the behaviour of our Church leaders themselves.

Philosophy comes from the Greek word φιλοσοφία, which means ‘love of wisdom’. In a class dedicated to an understanding of the most fundamental truths (what is meant by ‘wisdom’), establishing whether an unborn child is human or not is entirely appropriate. Once established that an unborn child is human (there are various philosophical ways of doing that - check out Aristotle’s De Anima for starters) one can immediately see the practical consequences of this philosophical deduction - which is a good way of showing how philosophy impacts on real life.

To teach that abortion is the teaching of one religion, the Catholic Church, whereas other religions have perhaps different notions on this and other subjects:

a) brings something into philosophy that doesn’t belong to it, namely the affirmations of various religious systems, and

b) reduces abortion to an opinion by one and possibly more religions, and we are right back to the socially-excluded prolifers and their placards in the streets. “That’s their opinion, dear.”

 

[Rau]

…To teach that abortion is the teaching of one religion, the Catholic Church, whereas other religions have perhaps different notions on this and other subjects…

…is fact and reality. The students are not all Catholic, and they are not at the university to learn nothing but Catholic beliefs and principals. And the university has no objective to constrain its programs to the confines of Catholicism. The university is not a vehicle for Catechesis - this is another reality, and on that basis, you, like me, might question why Catholic universities exist.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

…is fact and reality. The students are not all Catholic, and they are not at the university to learn nothing but Catholic beliefs and principals. And the university has no objective to constrain its programs to the confines of Catholicism. The university is not a vehicle for Catechesis - this is another reality, and on that basis, you, like me, might question why Catholic universities exist.

No, I would question why universities exist. Philosophy is about realities that are every bit as true and real and independent of religious revelation as the fact that the square root of 9 is 3. I may decide that the square root of 9 is 4 and be no threat to society, but if I have no objective and true notion of what makes humans human, and decide arbitrarily that some humans aren’t human because that’s my opinion (are Jews human? - ask Hitler), then we are in a very big puddle of poo.

 

[Thomas_White]

And another simple truth: it would be impossible to carry out an abortion without an unborn child being present (which can be male, female, or (rarely) intersex. This state of events would not be possible without (name removed by moderator)ut from…a man.

I can see what you’re saying here, but as a woman and a Catholic, I absolutely cringe when anyone refers to murder of either sex as a ‘women’s issue’ because it does suggest women have somehow got more right to an opinion, or that men are somehow less affected (which is unfair to the men who didn’t want to lose a child, or might look back and bitterly regret being complicit in aborting a child and terminally unfair to the poor baby boys who never even make it out alive)

I don’t know what the law is in the USA, but I wish there was a law in the UK where the father could veto a termination.

Another concept (courtesy of the ‘sisterhood’) that needs knocking on the head is ‘falling pregnant’. A woman becomes pregnant because she has sexual intercourse with a man (usually!) It isn’t an illness, an accident or an inconvenience. It’s a wonderful gift and creating a new person is not something that should be seen as an unfortunate side effect of enjoying a bit of slap & tickle.

The truth is that a woman can have an abortion without any (name removed by moderator)ut whatsoever from the father. Do a web search of “women’s issues”, and abortion will be a featured topic, if only under the euphemism “reproductive freedom”.

Abortion is a global women’s issue, and it is disingenuous to maintain otherwise.