Catholic University in Belgium Sacks Lecturer Who Called Abortion the Murder of an Innocent Person

[Rose71]

The truth is that a woman can have an abortion without any (name removed by moderator)ut whatsoever from the father. Do a web search of “women’s issues”, and abortion will be a featured topic, if only under the euphemism “reproductive freedom”.

Abortion is a global women’s issue, and it is disingenuous to maintain otherwise.

Please explain how an abortion can take place without any (name removed by moderator)ut whatsoever from the father. If the father didn’t supply the vital element needed for an abortion to take place, then who did?

I don’t need to trawl the internet to read a lot of feminist drivel about the ‘right’ to termination and how abortion is a ‘women’s issue’. I decided for myself a long time ago that these sort of women spout selfish nonsense. Just because they claim it is a ‘women’s issue’ doesn’t make it one. Perhaps only homosexual couples who wish to marry should have an opinion on same-sex marriage? Would that make it a ‘homosexual issue’, or would it still be an issue that has ramifications for society as a whole.

To perpetuate the myth that abortion is a women’s issue is, in my opinion, massively disrespectful to men, because it also suggests some lack of responsibility for men in all of this. Are you saying it’s fine for a man to have a 50% stake in creating a baby and than leave it to the woman to ‘sort it out’ if it wasn’t planned?

Yes, there are selfish and stupid women out there who don’t see fit to even let the man know they are expecting, or insist on going ahead without his consent, but were all these men raped? I suspect most of them undid their own zippers! Had either party stopped to think, or had any respect for one another or any moral compass…

 

[Rau]

Thomas is not claiming that men take no part in all the events that lead to pregnancy, nor that they have zero involvement in decisions about abortion. Men must accept some share of the “blame”.

I think he is observing that, by and large (that is, in most cases) it is women who are most outspoken on the right to abortion, and who make the final decision to abort. Yes, there are men who abandon women, who cajole and encourage them toward abortion - but by and large - women take the decision. How can it be otherwise?

 

[Rose71]

Thomas is not claiming that men take no part in all the events that lead to pregnancy, nor that they have zero involvement in decisions about abortion. Men must accept some share of the “blame”.

I think he is observing that, by and large (that is, in most cases) it is women who are most outspoken on the right to abortion, and who make the final decision to abort. Yes, there are men who abandon women, who cajole and encourage them toward abortion - but by and large - women take the decision. How can it be otherwise?

Yes, I understand perfectly what Thomas is saying: I just disagree with his definition of ‘a women’s issue’. I know many of the most vocal supporters of what they call ‘freedom of choice’ are women, but I still maintain that to conclude from their actions that abortion is a ‘women’s issue’ is playing right into their hands and giving the argument that women have more ‘right’ to an opinion about the topic more credence.

I also feel uncomfortable with the suggestion that since women are the ones who actually go into the abortion clinic and sign the forms, that the evil of abortion is somehow more of a ‘female sin’. Doctors of either sex can both perform abortions and pressure women into having abortions. People of either sex can choose either to keep quiet, or to speak out against the evil of abortion and both sexes have the same right to be heard. Many abortions are the end product of a sick and sad society that values materialism and self-satisfaction above all else and men and women both contribute to that.

In my opinion (and I’m happy to ‘agree to disagree’ with Thomas ) putting the label of ‘a women’s issue’ on abortion both serves to reinforce the message that it’s all about women ‘having the right to do what they want with their own bodies’ and suggests that women have more responsibility than men to speak out against it. These are both dangerous concepts to promote (however implicitly) because it isn’t a million miles away from the suggestion that fertility itself is just a ‘woman’s responsibility’ rather than placing the emphasis on educating and supporting men and women and encouraging them to appreciate the sanctity of marriage, family life and the rights of the unborn child.

Abortion is a symptom of a society that is failing, not a cause. The root cause is the cult of the ‘self’ - and we’re each and every one of us responsible for trying to sort that out.

As I think I said in the first post: when I was at university, a lecturer was expected to throw some curved balls and stimulate friendly debate and I hope that’s how Thomas is receiving my challenges. The main thing is that we both fundamentally disagree with abortion!

 

[Thomas_White]

Thomas is not claiming that men take no part in all the events that lead to pregnancy, nor that they have zero involvement in decisions about abortion. Men must accept some share of the “blame”.

I think he is observing that, by and large (that is, in most cases) it is women who are most outspoken on the right to abortion, and who make the final decision to abort. Yes, there are men who abandon women, who cajole and encourage them toward abortion - but by and large - women take the decision. How can it be otherwise?

That’s a fair summation of my views on abortion. I haven’t said that abortion is exclusively a women’s issue, only that it is a women’s issue. I would add that women have abortions and men do not. Given that fact, I do not see how abortion could not be a “women’s issue”.

 

[Thomas_White]

Please explain how an abortion can take place without any (name removed by moderator)ut whatsoever from the father. If the father didn’t supply the vital element needed for an abortion to take place, then who did?

That a man participates in the conception of human life is not the issue. A woman can certainly choose to end that human life by having an abortion without the father having any (name removed by moderator)ut whatsoever in it, to include even knowing about it. I would think this is utterly obvious.

 

[Rose71]

That a man participates in the conception of human life is not the issue. A woman can certainly choose to end that human life by having an abortion without the father having any (name removed by moderator)ut whatsoever in it, to include even knowing about it. I would think this is utterly obvious.

With all due respect, I think you are entirely missing my point. I am not disputing the fact that a woman can choose to have an abortion without asking or even informing the father of the child (yes, that is utterly obvious)

I am respectfully disagreeing that this means abortion should be referred to as a ‘women’s issue’ because the root cause: the reason why an abortion is even considered in the first place, is because of something that however you slice included the participation of a man. In addition, doctors of both sexes perform abortions and - crucially for me, babies of both sexes are killed.

I can see that you are saying it is a ‘women’s issue’ because it is the woman who goes through with the actual abortion, but I’m saying that before we label it a ‘women’s issue’ we ought to consider the bigger picture - not least, consider the person who really loses out here i.e. the unborn child and the people who are willing to perform the act - the doctors.

This leads me to conclude that calling it a ‘women’s issue’ is putting women at the centre of the issue when really, our primary concern should be the unborn child. This doesn’t by any means lessen the sins of the mothers who abort their babies, but realistically, to end or even reduce the number of abortions, we have to be clear that society as a whole needs to change and to pigeon-hole abortion as something that’s just all about women (otherwise, why call it a ‘women’s issue’ at all?) really only serves to play into the hands of the ‘women have the right to do what they like to their own bodies’ group on the one hand, while absolving the rest of our society from any blame or need for change.

I don’t expect you to agree with me - but that’s fine. Maybe I’ve made other people think. As I said, we agree on the most important point: abortion is murder.

God bless and thanks for the debate: I’m leaving it here because I’m happy I have made my point.

 

[mikekle]

I remember, not so long ago, when Catholics did not use pretzel logic to justify contradictions to the Faith.

This is a new art form today, it can be used to justify just about anything and everything and still being able to call yourself catholic.

 

[Pulvis]

This is a new art form today, it can be used to justify just about anything and everything and still being able to call yourself catholic.

True. :sad_yes:

 

[Thomas_White]

With all due respect, I think you are entirely missing my point. I am not disputing the fact that a woman can choose to have an abortion without asking or even informing the father of the child (yes, that is utterly obvious)

I am respectfully disagreeing that this means abortion should be referred to as a ‘women’s issue’ because the root cause: the reason why an abortion is even considered in the first place, is because of something that however you slice included the participation of a man. In addition, doctors of both sexes perform abortions and - crucially for me, babies of both sexes are killed.

I can see that you are saying it is a ‘women’s issue’ because it is the woman who goes through with the actual abortion, but I’m saying that before we label it a ‘women’s issue’ we ought to consider the bigger picture - not least, consider the person who really loses out here i.e. the unborn child and the people who are willing to perform the act - the doctors.

This leads me to conclude that calling it a ‘women’s issue’ is putting women at the centre of the issue when really, our primary concern should be the unborn child. This doesn’t by any means lessen the sins of the mothers who abort their babies, but realistically, to end or even reduce the number of abortions, we have to be clear that society as a whole needs to change and to pigeon-hole abortion as something that’s just all about women (otherwise, why call it a ‘women’s issue’ at all?) really only serves to play into the hands of the ‘women have the right to do what they like to their own bodies’ group on the one hand, while absolving the rest of our society from any blame or need for change.

I don’t expect you to agree with me - but that’s fine. Maybe I’ve made other people think. As I said, we agree on the most important point: abortion is murder.

God bless and thanks for the debate: I’m leaving it here because I’m happy I have made my point.

I don’t know there even is a meaningful disagreement. My point has been that certain groups, primarily feminist, have maintained that abortion (‘choice’, if you will) is a women’s issue. I just think this is beyond credible dispute. That’s all.

Otherwise, I agree with what you have said.