Catholic Vegetarianism

[OAO]

From Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI: "“A sort of industrial use of creatures, so that geese are fed in such a way as to produce as large a liver as possible, or hens live so packed together that they become just caricatures of birds, this degrading of living creatures to a commodity seems to me in fact to contradict the relationship of mutuality that comes across in the Bible”

From the Catechism 2416: “Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.”

The USCCB: “Catholic teaching about the stewardship of creation leads us to question certain farming practices, such as the operation of massive confined animal feeding operations. We believe that these operations should be carefully regulated and monitored so that environmental risks are minimized and animals are treated as creatures of God.” usccb.org/bishops/agricultural.shtml

Argument
(1) We have a duty to animals to treat them with mutuality.
(2) Factory farming violates the duty to treat animals with mutuality.
(3) Therefore, factory farming violates a moral duty.
(4) It is wrong to abet the violation of duties.
(5) Therefore, it is wrong to eat meat.

So, shouldn’t all Catholics be vegetarians?

 

[redhen]

Argument
(1) We have a duty to animals to treat them with mutuality.
(2) Factory farming violates the duty to treat animals with mutuality.
(3) Therefore, factory farming violates a moral duty.
(4) It is wrong to abet the violation of duties.
(5) Therefore, it is wrong to eat meat.

So, shouldn’t all Catholics be vegetarians?

Your main conclusion is off, what about in vitro (cultered) meat?

newsdesk.umd.edu/scitech/release.cfm?ArticleID=1098

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

From Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI: "“A sort of industrial use of creatures, so that geese are fed in such a way as to produce as large a liver as possible, or hens live so packed together that they become just caricatures of birds, this degrading of living creatures to a commodity seems to me in fact to contradict the relationship of mutuality that comes across in the Bible”

From the Catechism 2416: “Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.”

The USCCB: “Catholic teaching about the stewardship of creation leads us to question certain farming practices, such as the operation of massive confined animal feeding operations. We believe that these operations should be carefully regulated and monitored so that environmental risks are minimized and animals are treated as creatures of God.” usccb.org/bishops/agricultural.shtml

Argument
(1) We have a duty to animals to treat them with mutuality.
(2) Factory farming violates the duty to treat animals with mutuality.
(3) Therefore, factory farming violates a moral duty.
(4) It is wrong to abet the violation of duties.
(5) Therefore, it is wrong to eat meat.

So, shouldn’t all Catholics be vegetarians?

You must first prove that we are to treat animals with mutality.

This is defined as;

Main Entry: mu·tu·al·i·ty
Pronunciation: \ˌmyü-chə-ˈwa-lə-tē
Function: noun
Date: circa 1586
1 : the quality or state of being mutual
2 : a sharing of sentiments : intimacy

I can only assume that you mean defintion 1, the quality or state of being mutual which I do not see as working here. Are you trying to say that we must treat animals as we treat people? but again, you must first prove that.

 

[Joe_5859]

From Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI: "“A sort of industrial use of creatures, so that geese are fed in such a way as to produce as large a liver as possible, or hens live so packed together that they become just caricatures of birds, this degrading of living creatures to a commodity seems to me in fact to contradict the relationship of mutuality that comes across in the Bible”

From the Catechism 2416: “Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.”

The USCCB: “Catholic teaching about the stewardship of creation leads us to question certain farming practices, such as the operation of massive confined animal feeding operations. We believe that these operations should be carefully regulated and monitored so that environmental risks are minimized and animals are treated as creatures of God.” usccb.org/bishops/agricultural.shtml

Argument
(1) We have a duty to animals to treat them with mutuality.
(2) Factory farming violates the duty to treat animals with mutuality.
(3) Therefore, factory farming violates a moral duty.
(4) It is wrong to abet the violation of duties.
(5) Therefore, it is wrong to eat meat.

So, shouldn’t all Catholics be vegetarians?

If that were true, Cardinal Ratzinger would have went there, but he didn’t. I do not think any bishop or Pope has ever made such an assertion. That should also tell us something.

Just because Ratzinger called attention to questionable practices and because the Church advocates treating animals with kindness doesn’t mean that he is asserting that animals can never be used for food or anything else. To assert otherwise is to read far more into Ratzinger’s words than he ever intended to say.

 

[Whidbey]

There is a great book by Wesley Smith that addresses this and the difference between human and animal rights. We absolutely have the obligation to treat animals with respect and compassion, and yet in Genesis God clearly places them in our dominion, and at our use.
You can find the book here.

avemariaradio.onlinecatholicstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=10612

 

[I_Fortuna]

From Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI: "“A sort of industrial use of creatures, so that geese are fed in such a way as to produce as large a liver as possible, or hens live so packed together that they become just caricatures of birds, this degrading of living creatures to a commodity seems to me in fact to contradict the relationship of mutuality that comes across in the Bible”

From the Catechism 2416: “Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.”

The USCCB: “Catholic teaching about the stewardship of creation leads us to question certain farming practices, such as the operation of massive confined animal feeding operations. We believe that these operations should be carefully regulated and monitored so that environmental risks are minimized and animals are treated as creatures of God.” usccb.org/bishops/agricultural.shtml

Argument
(1) We have a duty to animals to treat them with mutuality.
(2) Factory farming violates the duty to treat animals with mutuality.
(3) Therefore, factory farming violates a moral duty.
(4) It is wrong to abet the violation of duties.
(5) Therefore, it is wrong to eat meat.

So, shouldn’t all Catholics be vegetarians?

I believe what they are referring to here is turning to cage free chicken and avoiding veal. Veal practices may be costrued as cruel. Calves are confined, not allowed to move from their stalls, milk fed and slaughtered while very young because the meat is more tender. Also, mistreating any animal for our vanity maybe considered cruel and not in the best interest of our soul’s journey.

Organic and Kosher meats may be more healthful for us all in addition to a more vegetarian diet.

 

[HereticalTheist]

I believe what they are referring to here is turning to cage free chicken and avoiding veal. Veal practices may be costrued as cruel. Calves are confined, not allowed to move from their stalls, milk fed and slaughtered while very young because the meat is more tender. Also, mistreating any animal for our vanity maybe considered cruel and not in the best interest of our soul’s journey.

Organic and Kosher meats may be more healthful for us all in addition to a more vegetarian diet.

I am happy to be both Catholic and Ovo-Lacto vegetarian (i.e. not vegan).

But I am not vegetarian primarily because I am concerned about animal rights (though I am). I think Catholics in particular have two much stronger reasons for vegetarian living:

1. Most of the poorest of the world’s poor both today and in the past have been unable to afford to eat meat…so by foregoing meat we self-identify with the poor and unprivileged.
2. It takes 16 pounds of grian to produce a single pound of Chicken breast meat. With all the food resources we are feeding to our animals, we could easily feed every living human being. Meat is an inefficient and unjust use of our natural resources. When people ask me why I am a vegetarian it gives me a platform to bring this injustice and the plight of the world poor to mind.

 

[RosalieM]

I too am a Catholic lacto-ovo vegetarian.

 

[OAO]

Yeah, the conclusion is off; what I meant was meat produced by factory farming methods.

Is the general treatment of livestock so different from the treatment of calves? I know there are small farms, but I mean in cases like the beef in the supermarket, McDonalds, etc.

Also, I’m not defending animal rights in the sense that rights activists do.

 

[Lypher]

From Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI: "“A sort of industrial use of creatures, so that geese are fed in such a way as to produce as large a liver as possible, or hens live so packed together that they become just caricatures of birds, this degrading of living creatures to a commodity seems to me in fact to contradict the relationship of mutuality that comes across in the Bible”

From the Catechism 2416: “Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.”

The USCCB: “Catholic teaching about the stewardship of creation leads us to question certain farming practices, such as the operation of massive confined animal feeding operations. We believe that these operations should be carefully regulated and monitored so that environmental risks are minimized and animals are treated as creatures of God.” usccb.org/bishops/agricultural.shtml

Argument
(1) We have a duty to animals to treat them with mutuality.
(2) Factory farming violates the duty to treat animals with mutuality.
(3) Therefore, factory farming violates a moral duty.
(4) It is wrong to abet the violation of duties.
(5) Therefore, it is wrong to eat meat.

So, shouldn’t all Catholics be vegetarians?

Error in logic flow… Using that arguement we could make the same claim for apartment buildings, and in fact we do…having sterile clean, sound apartments is legal, having slums will, and should, get you in trouble.

Clean kennels, versus nasty ones…kindness, but life does end in death and yes God gave us the creatures of the world to use.

In the end plants have feelings too…

 

[puzzleannie]

Argument
(1) We have a duty to animals to treat them with mutuality.
(2) Factory farming violates the duty to treat animals with mutuality.
(3) Therefore, factory farming violates a moral duty.
(4) It is wrong to abet the violation of duties.
(5) Therefore, it is wrong to eat meat.

So, shouldn’t all Catholics be vegetarians?

wrong, there is also the choice to eat meat that has not been raised in factory farms, such as grass fed beef, locally raised organic free range chicken and eggs, and so forth. or you can eat wild caught fish

 

[RosalieM]

Error in logic flow… Using that arguement we could make the same claim for apartment buildings, and in fact we do…having sterile clean, sound apartments is legal, having slums will, and should, get you in trouble.

Clean kennels, versus nasty ones…kindness, but life does end in death and yes God gave us the creatures of the world to use.

In the end plants have feelings too…

Plants aren’t nearly as evolved as animals. They are not flesh, blood and bones like we and the animals are. The don’t have eyes like we and the animals do.
True, God gave us the creatures of the world. That doesn’t mean we have to eat them if we choose not to.
If more people knew the brutal methods of slaughter; there would be less meat eating. Pigs are sometimes given sedatives in the slaughterhouses because they literally die of fear. There is adrenalin in flesh meat from the animals’ last fearful moments. Most of them are butchered alive. Kosher is the exception in the slaughter of animals, not the rule.
True, life does end in death. That doesn’t mean we have to condone slaughter if we choose not to.

 

[Lypher]

wrong, there is also the choice to eat meat that has not been raised in factory farms, such as grass fed beef, locally raised organic free range chicken and eggs, and so forth. or you can eat wild caught fish

 

[RosalieM]

I’ll take the free range eggs. I just don’t want to eat animals whether they’re slaughtered humanely or not. My choice. God bless y’all.

 

[redhen]

Since this topic of Catholic vegetarianism was based on moral arguments, not health claims, I feel it’s appropriate to post a 10 min. video from Andrew Linzey, an Anglican theologian at Oxford who argues for the intrinsic worth of non-human animals.

oxfordanimalethics.com/what-we-do/media/film-profile-of-director

Some have criticized his use of “rights” language, but I think that just stems from the western, Hobbesian view of the “war of all against all”, where rights are needed to protect us. I don’t think Dr. Linzey is actually trying to extend human rights to animals.

 

[Lypher]

Plants aren’t nearly as evolved as animals.

Well from a limited perspective of value this might be right, but on what scale? Plants will be alive long after we are… High radiation will wipe out every type of animal, even cockroaches if hi enough, but lichens will still be here. So it would seem that they have evolved in such a way as to put them on top of us in that category.

They are not flesh, blood and bones like we and the animals are.

Yes… and is that the only measure of value? Is a Fish wish lives alone less valuable then a highly socially developed Ant? Is the Ant then as valuable as a rat, or as valuable as a toad? I think this would be trying to classify based on intelligence? My point using a plant is that many Human beings have limited brain activity, so would we not allow them to be killed or would we, based on IQ? If we would allow a human vegetable to die we would need to ask why? Is it because the life is not worth living? So if we breed a Pig whose whole purpose in life was to be raised and killed, never to experience life outside of the pen. What is the difference? Are we measuring Potential then? So based on IQ we can draw finite lines of value? Is that how our system would work?

The don’t have eyes like we and the animals do.

Do eyes make value, I don’t think we should use this as a gage? I know of a couple of Blind Singers and they have immense value to me, probably have given more to humanity then I certainly have. Would we be worth more because we have eyes? What about for people that only have one arm or one leg or cant walk or work?

True, God gave us the creatures of the world. That doesn’t mean we have to eat them if we choose not to.

That is a true statement, and I love the ending with free will, but many people these days would force others to be vegetarians if they could. We were not made to be herbivores. If one chooses to give up the eating of animals we might wonder if they do so to raise the station of animals to that of man? Are they glorifying man, animals or God, since God gave them to us to use? If they give up eating them for God then we could see that as a sacrifice, but other reasons might be self centered. Do they shout from the Mountain tops look at me I don’t eat meat, or do they humble turn to God and offer up the sacrifice of giving something of value? I really don’t know if NOT eating meat would be a sin, but I think it might be if done for the wrong reasons. I have Bible study tonight and I am going to ask that question…

Thank you for causing me to think about it…

If more people knew the brutal methods of slaughter; there would be less meat eating.

Actually if we made people slaughter their own food we would have less killing in the cities as people would see the finality of death. (My Opinion) I was raised on a Farm and I like my Steak, Pork, Rabbits, Chickens, Goats and Sheep. I have raised my animals from babies and I know God put the animals here for man. That being said I tried to make their death easy and a painless as I could. Far less then in the wild.

Pigs are sometimes given sedatives in the slaughterhouses because they literally die of fear. There is adrenalin in flesh meat from the animals’ last fearful moments.

That is news to me as I never saw that on my farm or any of my friends…

Most of them are butchered alive.

The only animals I know of that are butchered alive, butchering is cutting them up, so you mean to cut them up while alive is kind of Kosher, and as far as I know they only cut across the throat. They bleed the animal out as they are not supposed to eat blood.

I have never heard of anyone else ever butchering animals while still alive, with the exception of Fish… I have seen fish fillet while still alive.

It would make no, and I mean absoutely no, sense to butcher most animals alive. Usually what happens on smaller farms is the animal is shot and then the throat is cut… the heart beats and pumps the blood out as you do not want all that blood in the meat. At larger slaughter houses they use an projectile that is air driven into the brain and then withdrawn. Again they are bleed out. I have not heard of mass producers butchering prior to the blood letting.

Kosher is the exception in the slaughter of animals, not the rule.

Kosher is harder on the animals…They bleed it out without killing it.

True, life does end in death. That doesn’t mean we have to condone slaughter if we choose not to.

For me it depends on if you are raising the value of animals to the level of man… But again I am going to ask my Priest if it is a sin…

You had a very good post… I enjoyed thinking about it, and I really do have an appreciation for anybody that can give up something of value to God. Priest do it, and we all try in Lent. So if you are able to sacrifice to honor God then I think it is a good thing.

God Bless you… Please Pray for me…

 

[puzzleannie]

I’ll take the free range eggs. I just don’t want to eat animals whether they’re slaughtered humanely or not. My choice. God bless y’all.

fine but that is not OP’s question, which he has brought out to a forum, out of the interest group of that name, so his question is based on the the Pope’s words, is it a moral imperative for Catholics to be vegetarian. He is not asking about choice, but doctrine. He is addressing CAtholics specifically, so the practices of any other religions are not meat for this forum either (pun intended), nor are various health arguments.

 

[RosalieM]

Well from a limited perspective of value this might be right, but on what scale? Plants will be alive long after we are… High radiation will wipe out every type of animal, even cockroaches if hi enough, but lichens will still be here. So it would seem that they have evolved in such a way as to put them on top of us in that category.

I meant how close they are to us in fellowship.

Yes… and is that the only measure of value? Is a Fish wish lives alone less valuable then a highly socially developed Ant? Is the Ant then as valuable as a rat, or as valuable as a toad? I think this would be trying to classify based on intelligence? My point using a plant is that many Human beings have limited brain activity, so would we not allow them to be killed or would we, based on IQ? If we would allow a human vegetable to die we would need to ask why? Is it because the life is not worth living? So if we breed a Pig whose whole purpose in life was to be raised and killed, never to experience life outside of the pen. What is the difference? Are we measuring Potential then? So based on IQ we can draw finite lines of value? Is that how our system would work?

**I mean a level of development not necessarily based on IQ, but how close to human some creatures are. e.g., an insect isn’t as close as a pig. Some pigs are pets. I think it might also depend on how some creatures can form relationships with people. Ever looked a cow in the eye? Of course you have. They are such gentle, sweet creatures. **

Do eyes make value, I don’t think we should use this as a gage? I know of a couple of Blind Singers and they have immense value to me, probably have given more to humanity then I certainly have. Would we be worth more because we have eyes? What about for people that only have one arm or one leg or cant walk or work?

I’m just saying the presence of eyes is closer to how we are made.

That is a true statement, and I love the ending with free will, but many people these days would force others to be vegetarians if they could. We were not made to be herbivores. If one chooses to give up the eating of animals we might wonder if they do so to raise the station of animals to that of man? Are they glorifying man, animals or God, since God gave them to us to use? If they give up eating them for God then we could see that as a sacrifice, but other reasons might be self centered. Do they shout from the Mountain tops look at me I don’t eat meat, or do they humble turn to God and offer up the sacrifice of giving something of value? I really don’t know if NOT eating meat would be a sin, but I think it might be if done for the wrong reasons. I have Bible study tonight and I am going to ask that question…

Thank you for causing me to think about it…

Giving up meat is not a sin. I know what you mean about militant vegetarians, though. It’s all to easy to be prideful.

Actually if we made people slaughter their own food we would have less killing in the cities as people would see the finality of death. (My Opinion) I was raised on a Farm and I like my Steak, Pork, Rabbits, Chickens, Goats and Sheep. I have raised my animals from babies and I know God put the animals here for man. That being said I tried to make their death easy and a painless as I could. Far less then in the wild.

Now for me, that would be like killing my beloved cat. Sorry.:shrug

That is news to me as I never saw that on my farm or any of my friends…

This happens in slaughterhouses. The pigs are quite intelligent, moreso than dogs I hear. They know what’s going on and can literally die of fear.

The only animals I know of that are butchered alive, butchering is cutting them up, so you mean to cut them up while alive is kind of Kosher, and as far as I know they only cut across the throat. They bleed the animal out as they are not supposed to eat blood.

Cows are roped in a “quartered” way and run thru buzz saws. It’s cheaper that way. I’ve seen the awful documentary films. I wish I had the name of documentary films I could refer you to.

I have never heard of anyone else ever butchering animals while still alive, with the exception of Fish… I have seen fish fillet while still alive.

As I said, I’ve seen programs on how cows, pigs, chickens are butchered alive on the industrial scale to save money.

It would make no, and I mean absoutely no, sense to butcher most animals alive. Usually what happens on smaller farms is the animal is shot and then the throat is cut… the heart beats and pumps the blood out as you do not want all that blood in the meat. At larger slaughter houses they use an projectile that is air driven into the brain and then withdrawn. Again they are bleed out. I have not heard of mass producers butchering prior to the blood letting.

I don’t know the name of the documentary I saw. It was horrific and I had to turn away. It could have been showing practices that are not widespread. I don’t know.

Kosher is harder on the animals…They bleed it out without killing it.

And I thought it was more humane…wrong.

For me it depends on if you are raising the value of animals to the level of man… But again I am going to ask my Priest if it is a sin…

Not raising animals to a human level. But I do feel they are my fellows. I do love them, perhaps inordinately.

You had a very good post… I enjoyed thinking about it, and I really do have an appreciation for anybody that can give up something of value to God. Priest do it, and we all try in Lent. So if you are able to sacrifice to honor God then I think it is a good thing.

God Bless you… Please Pray for me…

Thank you. I feel just a tad of sadness being farther away from the mainstream, but it is something I can do. Pax et Bonum.

 

[RosalieM]

fine but that is not OP’s question, which he has brought out to a forum, out of the interest group of that name, so his question is based on the the Pope’s words, is it a moral imperative for Catholics to be vegetarian. He is not asking about choice, but doctrine. He is addressing CAtholics specifically, so the practices of any other religions are not meat for this forum either (pun intended), nor are various health arguments.

I did not mention the practices of any other religion or emphasize health reasons. I am speaking for myself in hopes it could be a helpful point of view.

 

[4elise]

From Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI: "“A sort of industrial use of creatures, so that geese are fed in such a way as to produce as large a liver as possible, or hens live so packed together that they become just caricatures of birds, this degrading of living creatures to a commodity seems to me in fact to contradict the relationship of mutuality that comes across in the Bible”

From the Catechism 2416: “Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.”

The USCCB: “Catholic teaching about the stewardship of creation leads us to question certain farming practices, such as the operation of massive confined animal feeding operations. We believe that these operations should be carefully regulated and monitored so that environmental risks are minimized and animals are treated as creatures of God.” usccb.org/bishops/agricultural.shtml

Argument
(1) We have a duty to animals to treat them with mutuality.
(2) Factory farming violates the duty to treat animals with mutuality.
(3) Therefore, factory farming violates a moral duty.
(4) It is wrong to abet the violation of duties.
(5) Therefore, it is wrong to eat meat.

So, shouldn’t all Catholics be vegetarians?

Well… this (given the way I have to access meat, dairy, eggs, fish) has informed my choice and I see it as a faith reinforced decision to be vegan.