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4elise
Guest
You may be interested in joining our CAF group - Catholic Vegetarians and VegansI too am a Catholic lacto-ovo vegetarian.
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4elise
Guest
most of us do not have access to such meat, eggs, fish etc (if we do they are generally cost prohibitive) … however it is easy, healthy, inexpensive to prepare organic tofu
organic beans organic nuts veggies!
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4elise
Guest
I thank you for posting this - most people do not know this, and they falsely think it better.
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4elise
Guest
I would like to ask a very respectful question to those who eat meat.
Would there be something that if you learned it - something about the way your meat / dairy / eggs / fish - the animals raised for food and for their products- were raised and slaughtered - that would cause you to change your diet?
I ask this because it is what I learned at 50+ given my own faith formation as a Catholic - much of what was posted in the OP and subsequent posts regarding resources, and the issues of pollution that made it impossible for me to continue to eat meat, diary, eggs or fish.
It isn’t to raise animals to the level of humans. It is a human issue first for me - the issues of the impact on the environment of factory farming, the people who work in this industry, the many who do without around the world - and yes I do believe that we have a responsibility having been made in God’s image to care for animals - and I do not believe factory farms meet that criteria - or the overfishing that is done by commercial fishing…
Anyway - for 50 years I blissfully eat and prepared all kinds of meat because I hadn’t learned what I now know about factory farming - I also think if I didn’t believe that my Catholic faith calls me to examine my life in light of my relationship to ALL people and God’s creation - even with this knowledge I might not have been compelled to make such a change.
God Bless
Would there be something that if you learned it - something about the way your meat / dairy / eggs / fish - the animals raised for food and for their products- were raised and slaughtered - that would cause you to change your diet?
I ask this because it is what I learned at 50+ given my own faith formation as a Catholic - much of what was posted in the OP and subsequent posts regarding resources, and the issues of pollution that made it impossible for me to continue to eat meat, diary, eggs or fish.
It isn’t to raise animals to the level of humans. It is a human issue first for me - the issues of the impact on the environment of factory farming, the people who work in this industry, the many who do without around the world - and yes I do believe that we have a responsibility having been made in God’s image to care for animals - and I do not believe factory farms meet that criteria - or the overfishing that is done by commercial fishing…
Anyway - for 50 years I blissfully eat and prepared all kinds of meat because I hadn’t learned what I now know about factory farming - I also think if I didn’t believe that my Catholic faith calls me to examine my life in light of my relationship to ALL people and God’s creation - even with this knowledge I might not have been compelled to make such a change.
God Bless
R
RosalieM
Guest
Wow, I think I’d like to join the Catholic Vegetarians and Vegans group! I’ll click on the link and see what happens.
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4elise
Guest
I am happy to be both Catholic and Ovo-Lacto vegetarian (i.e. not vegan).
But I am not vegetarian primarily because I am concerned about animal rights (though I am). I think Catholics in particular have two much stronger reasons for vegetarian living:
- Most of the poorest of the world’s poor both today and in the past have been unable to afford to eat meat…so by foregoing meat we self-identify with the poor and unprivileged.
- It takes 16 pounds of grian to produce a single pound of Chicken breast meat. With all the food resources we are feeding to our animals, we could easily feed every living human being. Meat is an inefficient and unjust use of our natural resources. When people ask me why I am a vegetarian it gives me a platform to bring this injustice and the plight of the world poor to mind.
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RosalieM
Guest
…and the first sentence of 2418 goes on to say, “It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly.”
No one is saying you have to stop eating your meat. I think the Pope wants people to be more aware of and sensitive to the circumstances involving cruelty and draw their own conclusions and perhaps modify their choices.
Most, if not all scientific experimentation done on animals today can be done in different ways to come to the same conclusions. Animals are dying needlessly to save money and time for people who experiment on them and suffering needlessly for meat producers’ profits.
No one is saying you have to stop eating your meat. I think the Pope wants people to be more aware of and sensitive to the circumstances involving cruelty and draw their own conclusions and perhaps modify their choices.
Most, if not all scientific experimentation done on animals today can be done in different ways to come to the same conclusions. Animals are dying needlessly to save money and time for people who experiment on them and suffering needlessly for meat producers’ profits.
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tinalewis
Guest
My husband and I have been lacto-ovo-vegetarians since 1986. What’s the big deal? Why are people so madly in love with eating dead burned animals?
The time has come for all people to consider becoming vegetarians. Seems like St. Francis would agree.
The time has come for all people to consider becoming vegetarians. Seems like St. Francis would agree.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Just proved my argument above.
Why can’t my decision be as right for me as yours is for you? Why must I comply to your choice of living when both are viewed by the Church as valid?
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4elise
Guest
thistle - the Cathesism goes further to add:
2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
So while 2417 says that it is legitimate to use animals - 2418 states it is **contrary to our human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. **
If I have no other access to food then yes it is legitimate to use them for this purpose, provided I have not caused them to suffer.
However I have - living in the United States - ready, low cost, and healthy access to food that does not cause an animal to suffer or die - so since I have access to these alternatives it would be contrary to my human dignity (per the Catholic Cathesism) to cause them to suffer and die for my food, IMHO.
Blessings
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4elise
Guest
Dear Brother - you and I have met on many forums on this topic over the past year and we both continue in our position - so am quite sure that I can not ‘inflict’ this choice on you.
Because this is a Catholic group - I know speaking for myself, I always welcome the opportunity to discuss why this choice is informed by my faith and my understanding of how I am called to live my faith in the world today.
I appreciate that you and others do not make the same connection - but like the OP - given the teaching of the Church AND the way animals are raised today in CAFO’s - the issues of resources, animal welfare, pollution - these are all points that I have taken into consideration in making a radical change in my diet - and I welcome the opportunity to discuss this both with other Catholics who have made the same connection and respectfully with other who have not.
I posed a question on # 23 of this thread that I wonder if you would consider answering.
Blessings
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Yet you and others seem to say that our choice is not informed by our faith and our understanding of how we are called to live our faith in the world today.
It is fine if you chose this for yourself but to make the claim that our choice is somehow wrong when this is not what the Church teaches is what is wrong.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
So is it your claim that the Catechism contradicts itself? First saying that it is legitimate to use animals as food then saying that it is not?
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Lypher
Guest
Elise… No I was raised on a farm and am well aware of how animals are treated.
I can see why you might not eat meat, but eggs? and fish? Most fish are caught in the open ocean so I don’t see why you would not if it is just captive environment you worry about, as most fish are Caught just like God intended?
- I agree that hormones are bad and we should try to limit them.
- The people that work in this industry? Should they stay in the street? Do you have a job for them?
- Caring for animals does not an argument make. I have eaten Bugs in China, Snake in the US, Guinea Pigs in Peru, Horse in Mexico, and Dog in Korea. I have also eaten Quinoa, Lima Beans, Corn, Wheat, Barley, Rice Chick Pea and other legumes. Gods table has a lot on it.
I know and still have no problem. In fact if I my kids were hungry, and I had no food, I would have no trouble killing the the family dog to eat. I am not trying to sound flippant, which these posts can sometimes do. I just believe that the food chain is a food chain and my kids are more precious to me.
All the above being said. If we can ever figure out how to grow meat, which we will eventually do. I would have no problem not killing animals. That being said we would have to sterilize the ones that are here to prevent overpopulation. We would take away the capacity for these female beings to raise young. In the wild they would raise young and some would die to feed carnivore, part of life, we would eliminate this event for them.
The only argument I have seen so far that is valid, and which is why we eat pork, was the one concerning the amount of grain to raise a chicken. I cannot remember the exact number but I do not think 14 is it. I think it is likely less then 4 to 1. In other words every 4 pounds of grain is one pound of weight gain. The reason I say this is because the best converter, as I remember from my childhood days on the farm, are pigs and nearly 2 to 1. Which is why we raise a lot of them as it is more money. Cattle are one of the Worst with again if I remember something like 6-8 to 1. In any event this argument is valid because we could use the grain for ourselves instead of feeding it to animals. That being said if you agree with this argument then you CANNOT like Flex-Fuels because it is one of the most pathetic exchange rates and is driving up the cost of corn that we could use to feed the world.
In this world we have trade offs…lots of them. I think we need to learn to grow the meat in tanks and then we would be just fine. I have no problem eating processed steak you just need to make it taste and look like the real thing.
God Bless You Elise…
Keep pressing it is a good calling, although I do not subscribe it is worthwhile, as long as we do not mandate.
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OAO
Guest
The issue is not whether it is legitimate to use animals as food, the issue is whether it is legitimate to eat animals raised under the cruel conditions of factory farming.
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4elise
Guest
On many of these threads I have shared that many people in my own family - who I love, who I also believe are good Catholics, do not make this choice.
Never have I said that I think it is wrong to eat animals and their products for others.
When I (me, myself and I) learned about the issues related to CAFO production of meat, diary, and eggs - and learned about the pollution and over fishing issues of eating fish (which for me was the last to go) - I felt I had to change. I am not sure I would have made this change if I were not Catholic.
What I am trying to understand with that long question I posted earlier in the thread is — for those who do eat meat, dairy, eggs, fish, etc… is it possible that you do not think that the pollution is an issue because a) you don’t believe it is impacting communities b) you think it is the only way to eat c) you don’t care d) … /
Is it possible that regarding the way animals are raised in CAFOs you a) don’t know about it b) don’t think it constitutes suffering for the animals c) don’t think it matters because you eat it d)…
Is it possible that regarding resources a) it is something you don’t know about b) think it is ok to use that much resources for your food c) don’t care d) …
So again - I am really trying to understand. I know everyone has a different place in how they would view this issue - but it is difficult for me to understand that once a Catholic individual has this information why they would not make a change - it is easier to ask here really than in some cases face to face with friends because then, yes it seems pushy and I certainly don’t want to do that, with them - or here on the threads either.
Blessing
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4elise
Guest
No I am not saying that the Catechism contradicts itself - rather it clarifies the legitimate use of animals to that which does not cause unnecessary suffering or death.
Because I can have a healthy, inexpensive, readily available diet without causing animals unnecessary suffering or death as I understand it - this points to a vegan choice.
Blessings
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4elise
Guest
I am sure you on your farm treated animals differently than on CAFO’s ?? I know I have spoken with some people who have raised their own meat, or have access to that which does not come from CAFO’s ---- most of us do not however, or if we do it is way more expensive.
Eggs and dairies are the products of factory farms - those who raise chickens for eggs just toss out the male chicks born - and the pollution and the way animals are treated on large commercial dairies – example of how our preference has over ridden the treatment of animals - the way the turkeys have to be artifically incinimated because they have been breed to have too large breasts to breed naturally -
Fish was the last thing I gave up - and yes I miss it - but today’s commercial fishing operations in the open ocean is one of the largest causes of ocean pollution
I travel for my job and yes when offered hospitality I too have eaten pig ears, crickets, and chicken soup - but I think the OP was about was about what was available in the West - and how our choice of diet can be informed by our understanding of Church teaching - so Church teaching always has the value of man, made in God’s image at the heart of the discussion and should. So obviously I don’t want people jobless - and that is a complex issue to be sure - I do think however as more people move to a plant based diet the jobs shift with that move.
Of course your kids come first - don’t think that would be an argument. The issue of the ‘food chain’ implies that we go hunt and fish our own food (as some do of course) - not go to McDonalds or the supermarket where most have access to our food.
I am certainly in agreement that crops that could feed people should not be used to create fuel… and your point about resources is a HUGE factor for me - as it is for others on this thread - the amount of food and water used to raise animal protein / vs plant protein is staggering - and was in fact one of the things that caused me to make this change.All the above being said. If we can ever figure out how to grow meat, which we will eventually do. I would have no problem not killing animals. That being said we would have to sterilize the ones that are here to prevent overpopulation. We would take away the capacity for these female beings to raise young. In the wild they would raise young and some would die to feed carnivore, part of life, we would eliminate this event for them.
The only argument I have seen so far that is valid, and which is why we eat pork, was the one concerning the amount of grain to raise a chicken. I cannot remember the exact number but I do not think 14 is it. I think it is likely less then 4 to 1. In other words every 4 pounds of grain is one pound of weight gain. The reason I say this is because the best converter, as I remember from my childhood days on the farm, are pigs and nearly 2 to 1. Which is why we raise a lot of them as it is more money. Cattle are one of the Worst with again if I remember something like 6-8 to 1. In any event this argument is valid because we could use the grain for ourselves instead of feeding it to animals. That being said if you agree with this argument then you CANNOT like Flex-Fuels because it is one of the most pathetic exchange rates and is driving up the cost of corn that we could use to feed the world.
In this world we have trade offs…lots of them. I think we need to learn to grow the meat in tanks and then we would be just fine. I have no problem eating processed steak you just need to make it taste and look like the real thing.
God Bless You Elise…
Your comments that you would eat processed steak if it tasted like the real thing - my very respectful question is then if the reason that you can overlook the issue of pollution, resources, hormones, CAFO’s - only because of taste?
I’ve been cooking vegan for about 4 years now - and I would be more than happy to share some of the ways I have met that need for taste - with a plant based diet.
Blessings to you Lypher! (curious about your name? - Life Teen involvement?)
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