Catholic versus catholic

[Truthstalker]

From another thread, posed by 4given::

Question: how do you know that when the term “catholic” is used in historical records that it has anything to do with the RCC as we see it today? The word catholic means universal and Christ’s church is catholic in that it’s uinversal and includes all Christians. Just because the RCC took upon itself the name Catholic doesn’t necessarily prove the early church was the type of Catholic that we see today. It was catholic, small c, and consisted of all Christians. That’s my belief, anyway.

Good, good question. As a question one hesitation I have in asking it is to change ‘RCC’ to ‘Catholic’ as ‘RCC’ refers only to the Roman rite, whereas Catholic refers to all Christians who recognize papal authority. When trolls wander in here they often use ‘RCC’ erroneously, which causes Catholic hackles to understandably rise: they see RCC used this way and they think “here’s a troll here only to cause trouble.”

The second hesitation I have is that the Catholic church didn’t suddenly start calling itself the Catholic Church. For a long time it was the only church. So there needs to be a valid criterion (meaning, in part, one on all sides can reasonably agree to) by which to evaluate statements concerning the church as to whether a statement applies to the catholic church (meaning all of us) or the Catholic church (meaning only those who recognize papal authority). I will readily agree that there is no salvation outside the catholic church. I think Catholics agree with that. I think some Catholics will say there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. Big difference. And capitalization was a late invention, and most of the texts used were written long before the Orthodox-Catholic split. Resolution of this issue may be indeterminate.

 

[4given]

I want to say that if the term RCC is offensive here I’ll not use it. Would CC be preferable? If so, I’ll try to remember.

It’s my understanding that you aren’t Catholic so it’d be interesting to hear what they say about the term “catholic.”

I will comment on your statement that no one is saved outside the catholic or universal church. In a way that’s true, but I look at it this way. It’s not the church that does the saving. Being saved puts you in the catholic or universal church of Christ. My view anyway. To clarify, when I use the term church I refer to all believers in Christ or all the saved everywhere. I know Catholics mean the CC when the use the term. I think your right, though, that resoution of this is probably going to be indeterminate.

Ac 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 

[Image_of_God]

There is no salvation outside the catholic Church
and
There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

Are exactly the same.

Every Christian obtains salvation through her and there is no other “catholic” Church besides her.

She is the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.”

Catholic is catholic.

The captitalization of the word catholic goes as far back as the second century used by St. Ignatius. It is not a new invention.

Before the Great Schism, there was two forms of Christianity. They were Catholic, with a capital c and Arian. The Early Christians refer to themselves as Catholic before the Schism.

 

[Atreyu]

From another thread, posed by 4given::

Good, good question. As a question one hesitation I have in asking it is to change ‘RCC’ to ‘Catholic’ as ‘RCC’ refers only to the Roman rite, whereas Catholic refers to all Christians who recognize papal authority. When trolls wander in here they often use ‘RCC’ erroneously, which causes Catholic hackles to understandably rise: they see RCC used this way and they think “here’s a troll here only to cause trouble.”

The second hesitation I have is that the Catholic church didn’t suddenly start calling itself the Catholic Church. For a long time it was the only church. So there needs to be a valid criterion (meaning, in part, one on all sides can reasonably agree to) by which to evaluate statements concerning the church as to whether a statement applies to the catholic church (meaning all of us) or the Catholic church (meaning only those who recognize papal authority). I will readily agree that there is no salvation outside the catholic church. I think Catholics agree with that. I think some Catholics will say there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. Big difference. And capitalization was a late invention, and most of the texts used were written long before the Orthodox-Catholic split. Resolution of this issue may be indeterminate.

I wonder if there were any Christians before the Great Schism that had the same understanding of what the word “catholic” meant as do modern day Protestants. I can think of one who doesn’t: Ignatius of Antioch. From his Letter to the Smyrneans:
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution55 of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper56 Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.
To me, he clearly had an understand of the catholic church that is consistent with how modern Catholics understand the word catholic. And this is coming from someone who was a disciple of the apostle John, and the third bishop of a Petrine see; the same see where believers were first called Christians!

 

[Atreyu]

I want to say that if the term RCC is offensive here I’ll not use it. Would CC be preferable? If so, I’ll try to remember.

It’s my understanding that you aren’t Catholic so it’d be interesting to hear what they say about the term “catholic.”

I will comment on your statement that no one is saved outside the catholic or universal church. In a way that’s true, but I look at it this way. It’s not the church that does the saving. Being saved puts you in the catholic or universal church of Christ. My view anyway. To clarify, when I use the term church I refer to all believers in Christ or all the saved everywhere. I know Catholics mean the CC when the use the term. I think your right, though, that resoution of this is probably going to be indeterminate.

Ac 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The church (whatever that is) is the body of Christ, yes? So we know that if a particular person is saved, he must have been saved by Christ, right? Therefore, he must have been saved by the church. Therefore, there is no salvation outside the church.

 

[Image_of_God]

I want to say that if the term RCC is offensive here I’ll not use it. Would CC be preferable? If so, I’ll try to remember.

It’s my understanding that you aren’t Catholic so it’d be interesting to hear what they say about the term “catholic.”

I will comment on your statement that no one is saved outside the catholic or universal church. In a way that’s true, but I look at it this way. It’s not the church that does the saving. Being saved puts you in the catholic or universal church of Christ. My view anyway. To clarify, when I use the term church I refer to all believers in Christ or all the saved everywhere. I know Catholics mean the CC when the use the term. I think your right, though, that resoution of this is probably going to be indeterminate.

Ac 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

I have a different view. While somewhat true it is not completely true. Many non-Catholic Christians use the term catholic Church as if Jesus never intended there to be a visible structure of the Church as his body was visible.

“RCC” is offensive only if you use it to state the whole Catholic Church or the Eastern rites. If you use it to address Latin rite Christians, it is not offensive. RCC in the terms of the whole can be seen as offensive in so much as implies the ignorance of the
Eastern Catholics who are not of the Latin rite.

However, there is a different position. Roman Catholic can refer to all the of the Churches, because its headquarters is in Rome. It depends on how you use it. But in most cases Catholic Church is most prefered.

 

[Atreyu]

Before the Great Schism, there was two forms of Christianity. They were Catholic, with a capital c and Arian. The Early Christians refer to themselves as Catholic before the Schism.

This is overly simplistic. There were any number of heresies going around before the schism: Gnosticism, Arianism, Nestorianism and so on. The reason we say that there was only the Catholic Church and heresies, is that modern-day Protestants agree that all of these teachings were heresies! Apart from Iconoclasm maybe (some modern Protestants are Iconoclasts)…

 

[Image_of_God]

This is overly simplistic. There were any number of heresies going around before the schism: Gnosticism, Arianism, Nestorianism and so on. The reason we say that there was only the Catholic Church and heresies, is that modern-day Protestants agree that all of these teachings were heresies! Apart from Iconoclasm maybe (some modern Protestants are Iconoclasts)…

My point was that Arians were the most problematic of the heretics. I was not saying that there was no other heretics. I did not see fit to write them all down.

 

[4given]

There is no salvation outside the catholic Church
and
There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

Are exactly the same.

Every Christian obtains salvation through her and there is no other “catholic” Church besides her.

She is the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.”

Catholic is catholic.

The captitalization of the word catholic goes as far back as the second century used by St. Ignatius. It is not a new invention.

Before the Great Schism, there was two forms of Christianity. They were Catholic, with a capital c and Arian. The Early Christians refer to themselves as Catholic before the Schism.

Okay, so to clarify, you believe that the Catholic church or CC saves people and not Christ? Or that Christ only saves people through the CC? So in your viewpoint all of the Christians in the world who’ve trusted in Christ as Savior are going to hell becaues they don’t join up with the CC even though the Bible says that the Lord adds the saved to His universal church? I’m saved, yet I’m going to hell because I’m not a member of your church? I don’t think all Catholics believe that if that’s what you’re saying.

Oh and I’ve also heard from Catholics that I’m part of the CC, though imperfectly, whether I like it or not. I reject that, of course. And sometimes it’s hard to converse about it because Catholics and non-Catholics have a totally different view as to what the church is.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

This is overly simplistic. There were any number of heresies going around before the schism: Gnosticism, Arianism, Nestorianism and so on. The reason we say that there was only the Catholic Church and heresies, is that modern-day Protestants agree that all of these teachings were heresies! Apart from Iconoclasm maybe (some modern Protestants are Iconoclasts)…

Hi,
What is an Iconoclast?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I want to say that if the term RCC is offensive here I’ll not use it. Would CC be preferable? If so, I’ll try to remember.

It’s my understanding that you aren’t Catholic so it’d be interesting to hear what they say about the term “catholic.”

I will comment on your statement that no one is saved outside the catholic or universal church. In a way that’s true, but I look at it this way. It’s not the church that does the saving. Being saved puts you in the catholic or universal church of Christ. My view anyway. To clarify, when I use the term church I refer to all believers in Christ or all the saved everywhere. I know Catholics mean the CC when the use the term. I think your right, though, that resoution of this is probably going to be indeterminate.

Ac 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The bottom line is that according to Scripture and Apostolic Tradition there is ONLY ONE Church, not churches. So the question is of all the bodies of Christians in the world today claiming to be “the church”. Which ONE is actually, The Church, founded upon Peter, the flock turned over to Peter? Which ONE is the ONLY ONE that calims to have the successor of Peter still leading the Church on earth.

 

[Image_of_God]

Okay, so to clarify, you believe that the Catholic church or CC saves people and not Christ? Or that Christ only saves people through the CC? So in your viewpoint all of the Christians in the world who’ve trusted in Christ as Savior are going to hell becaues they don’t join up with the CC even though the Bible says that the Lord adds the saved to His universal church? I’m saved, yet I’m going to hell because I’m not a member of your church? I don’t think all Catholics believe that if that’s what you’re saying.

Oh and I’ve also heard from Catholics that I’m part of the CC, though imperfectly, whether I like it or not. I reject that, of course. And sometimes it’s hard to converse about it because Catholics and non-Catholics have a totally different view as to what the church is.

This is what the Cathechism says. All Catholics are required to believe it. Protestants, because of their partial union with the Catholic Church, can be saved by her. This is an orthodox teaching. This is what the early Christians thought. You are misunderstanding what I’ve said. All people who believe in the Christ, are through baptism set to some union with the Catholic Church. They can be saved by her.
But to imply the way you use catholic, in such that way, is a department from the way the Early Christians used it.
Paul taught that the Church at all times must follow the same doctrines.

 

[4given]

The church (whatever that is) is the body of Christ, yes? So we know that if a particular person is saved, he must have been saved by Christ, right? Therefore, he must have been saved by the church. Therefore, there is no salvation outside the church.

I guess I can’t really follow that view. Being saved by Christ is being saved by the church? Is Christ the church? I though He was the Bridegroom and the church His bride. Hmmm…Aren’t all Christians together considered in Scripture to be Christ’s bride or church? Do we then save ourselves? To me to say that the Christians are saved by the church is the same as saying the church is saved by the church.

 

[Atreyu]

Hi,
What is an Iconoclast?

Iconoclasts reject veneration of images and statues as being idolatry. Putting it simply… Basically, they equate “veneration” with “adoration”.

 

[4given]

This is what the Cathechism says. All Catholics are required to believe it. Protestants, because of their partial union with the Catholic Church, can be saved by her. This is an orthodox teaching. This is what the early Christians thought. You are misunderstanding what I’ve said. All people who believe in the Christ, are through baptism set to some union with the Catholic Church. They can be saved by her.
But to imply the way you use catholic, in such that way, is a department from the way the Early Christians used it.

Thanks for clarifying the Catholic viewpoint. I’m sure there’s more things I can learn about your beliefs even if I disagree with them.

 

[Truthstalker]

There is no salvation outside the catholic Church
and
There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

Are exactly the same.

Every Christian obtains salvation through her and there is no other “catholic” Church besides her.

She is the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.”

Catholic is catholic.

The captitalization of the word catholic goes as far back as the second century used by St. Ignatius. It is not a new invention.

Before the Great Schism, there was two forms of Christianity. They were Catholic, with a capital c and Arian. The Early Christians refer to themselves as Catholic before the Schism.

Capitalization did not develop until the Middle Ages.

I wonder if there were any Christians before the Great Schism that had the same understanding of what the word “catholic” meant as do modern day Protestants. I can think of one who doesn’t: Ignatius of Antioch. From his Letter to the Smyrneans:
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution55 of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper56 Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.
To me, he clearly had an understand of the catholic church that is consistent with how modern Catholics understand the word catholic. And this is coming from someone who was a disciple of the apostle John, and the third bishop of a Petrine see; the same see where believers were first called Christians!

Two issues: one is whether there were Christians who **rightly **believed there was salvation outside the Catholic church (ok, two sub-issues), and the second is that this was then, before there were Christians who conform to the Nicene Creed yet reject papal authority.

I do not think Ignatius in his wildest dream imagined a situation as we have it today, nor that his statement necessarily applies today. That was then; this is now. In his day Catholic = catholic because all Christians were both, because by definition all Christians were members of the catholic church. This was before the development of a lot of things that turned the catholic church into the Catholic church as a defined structure. At the Council of Nicea for the first time the Church stated what it believed and stated what it did not believe, and after that there was the first possibility of heresy. Ignatius, at 100 AD, was long before Nicaea at 325 AD, and cannot be expected to be aware of issues that emerged long after his martyrdom.

 

[Atreyu]

I guess I can’t really follow that view. Being saved by Christ is being saved by the church? Is Christ the church? I though He was the Bridegroom and the church His bride. Hmmm…Aren’t all Christians together considered in Scripture to be Christ’s bride or church?

Where did you get this idea? Was Judas a member of Christ’s church?

Do we then save ourselves? To me to say that the Christians are saved by the church is the same as saying the church is saved by the church.

The Church is the spotless bride of Christ, consisting of very sinful mortal men. For one of these men to be saved, he must be saved by Christ. As the Church is the body of Christ, saying he must be saved by Christ includes a requirement that he must be saved by the Church. Exactly how this happens, I have no real idea.

 

[Image_of_God]

Capitalization did not develop until the Middle Ages.

Two issues: one is whether there were Christians who **rightly **believed there was salvation outside the Catholic church (ok, two sub-issues), and the second is that this was then, before there were Christians who conform to the Nicene Creed yet reject papal authority.

I do not think Ignatius in his wildest dream imagined a situation as we have it today, nor that his statement necessarily applies today. That was then; this is now. In his day Catholic = catholic because all Christians were both, because by definition all Christians were members of the catholic church. This was before the development of a lot of things that turned the catholic church into the Catholic church as a defined structure. At the Council of Nicea for the first time the Church stated what it believed and stated what it did not believe, and after that there was the first possibility of heresy. Ignatius, at 100 AD, was long before Nicaea at 325 AD, and cannot be expected to be aware of issues that emerged long after his martyrdom.

No they were not. There were Arian Christians, Monophysite Christians, etc.
I said the Catholic Church= the catholic Church
After the Council of Nicea, they still held on to the belief the there is ONE Catholic Church. To state that two Churches that believe in and reject things and are in direct contradiction, are one catholic Church is not true.
The Church is the body of Christ. It is physical just as his body was.
Church doctrine is not subject to time.
The Cathechism teaches that there is one and only one catholic Church. All baptized Christians are brought into her to some degree. But it is no true that the catholic Church is just a group of Christians who believe in Christ and that is it. No, there is much more than that. This is the relativism that people are being warned about.

I suggest you read this:
catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

If you read the website above, it will show you that the capitalization of the word Catholic was developed far earlier than you think.

 

[Atreyu]

Capitalization did not develop until the Middle Ages.

Two issues: one is whether there were Christians who **rightly **believed there was salvation outside the Catholic church (ok, two sub-issues), and the second is that this was then, before there were Christians who conform to the Nicene Creed yet reject papal authority.

I do not think Ignatius in his wildest dream imagined a situation as we have it today, nor that his statement necessarily applies today. That was then; this is now. In his day Catholic = catholic because all Christians were both, because by definition all Christians were members of the catholic church. This was before the development of a lot of things that turned the catholic church into the Catholic church as a defined structure. At the Council of Nicea for the first time the Church stated what it believed and stated what it did not believe, and after that there was the first possibility of heresy. Ignatius, at 100 AD, was long before Nicaea at 325 AD, and cannot be expected to be aware of issues that emerged long after his martyrdom.

What about Gnosticism? That was around well before Nicaea.

However, my question remains unanswered. Are there any Christians before the schism that had a similar idea to the meaning of the word catholic as do modern Protestants?

 

[4given]

Where did you get this idea? Was Judas a member of Christ’s church?

The Church is the spotless bride of Christ, consisting of very sinful mortal men. For one of these men to be saved, he must be saved by Christ. As the Church is the body of Christ, saying he must be saved by Christ includes a requirement that he must be saved by the Church. Exactly how this happens, I have no real idea.

I see. Well, I’ve been online long enough. Have a nice evening.