Catholic view of Justification, the Biblical support for this view, and associated theological terminology.

[LatinRight]

God loves our freedom, and while He can offer us innumerable opportunities for our repentance, He leaves the final decision up to us - just as He did with the angels. It all flows from love, which must be a freely made, conscious and affirmative decision. No freedom, no love.

God bless Po18guy,

One of the shortest and one of the best post I read in the CAF.

I wouldn’t change anything in it, I only like add to it.

God has given us freedom to freely choose to work out of love for His Glory.

No freedom, no good works/supernatural works which pleases God.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[po18guy]

God bless Po18guy,

One of the shortest and one of the best post I read in the CAF.

:tiphat: On rare occasions, when I am almost incapable of coherent thought, something worthwhile may slip out.

 

[Wesrock]

Of course God knows who they are and He has completed the Book of life accordingly.

God has given enough grace to the reprobates that they could stay in the groups of the elect but they chosen to reject God and His grace and they leave.

They were among the elect, but they were newer part of the elect. – 1 John 2:19; Rom.11:29; Predestination of the elect. (DE FIDE) etc.

They were never in the state of grace, they were never part of the Bride of Christ, God never baptized them in the heavenly places into the Body of Christ, God never made them sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

If a reprobate would die in the state of Grace God would instantly lose His omniscience.

God knows precisely when each of us will die and whether it will be in a state of grace or not. It’s not as if God could be surprised or have His knowledge proven wrong. A member of the reprobate can be validly baptized and in a state of grace at some point in his life but ultimately lose it. There’s no risk that God will find Himself contradicted.

Paragraphs also make for easier reading.

 

[goout]

Paragraphs also make for easier reading.

:extrahappy:

 

[fhansen]

**God bless Cathoholic,

Fhil.2:12-13 is THE most misunderstand Bible verses in Christian circles.

Some theologically uneducated Christian believes Phil.2:12-13 means:

They must work for their salvation, in order to merit eternal life in heaven because Christ’s

merit on the cross wasn’t enough for their salvation.

Some Christian believes if they work enough for their salvation between baptism until they

die will merit eternal life and they use Phil.2:12-13 to attempt to prove it.

They believe as they progress with their works for their salvation, in the same way they

progress with their eligibility to merit eternal life.

They doesn’t know as God’s children/His elect in their first stage of their salvation at their

baptism they have received 100 % Legal Right/Eligibility to enter heaven as God’s free gift.

Christ merited for them paid in full on the cross.

Proof: If they would die even one second after their baptism they would instantly enter

heaven in heavenly glory. – RCC teaching.**
True-but a month or a year or ten years later, if they’ve succeeded in turning away from God and love again, they can lose their right to eternal life. Christ’s work on the cross does not merit universal salvation for man-man must respond in faith to begin with, and remain faithful.

**“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." **John 15:5-6

**“If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.” **Rom 11:17-21

 

[Cathoholic]

Your purpose in this exercise is apologetics with non-Catholics, correct?

po18guy. Yes I think that’s part of why I began this thread.

But also a learning discussion with “non-Catholic” positions that are confused to be “Catholic”.

We were discussing the sola fide issue on another thread (here) and I thought we were beginning to move away from the issue the OP asked for . . . (OP: “I am attempting to understand what Sola Fide means for Sola Fide Christians”).

Since the justification issue is so broad (prevenient grace, Baptism, natural faith, supernatural faith, hope and charity, imputed vrs. infused righteousness, the elect, the reprobate, moment vrs moment & lifelong process, eternal security, etc. etc.) that I thought we could accomplish more discussion of more of the issues here in a dedicated thread.

I would invite and welcome non-Catholics to join us here too!

 

[LatinRight]

True-but a month or a year or ten years later, if they’ve succeeded in turning away from God and love again, they can lose their right to eternal life. Christ’s work on the cross does not merit universal salvation for man-man must respond in faith to begin with, and remain faithful.

**“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." **John 15:5-6

**“If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.” **Rom 11:17-21

God bless Fhansen,

Well, if an elect would lose his faith, sure he would end up in hell and God would lose His omniscience.

At their baptism every elect receives God’s gift of FINAL PERSEVERANCE and God’s gift of EVERLASTING LIFE.

I’m sure Fhansen, you know the difference between EVERLASTING LIFE and PERIODICAL LIFE AND DEATH. – I’m sure I don’t have to explain the differences between the two.

An elect cannot die in the state of mortal sin because every elect has God’s gift of everlasting life. – No surprises.

Of course I know some people’s minds are tampered with.

When they read for example John 5:24 or 1 John 5:13, they read EVERLASTING LIFE but into their minds goes PERIODICAL LIFE AND DEATH. – That sickness is described in 2 Cor.4:3-4.

Another example Rom.8:30 states; “Those whom He has PREDESTINED He also called;” but goes into the mind as follows; Those whom He has PREDESTINED + REPROBATES He also called.

These people usually live their life in agonizing fear in the paralyzed state because they don’t know until they die they are elect or reprobate.

I’m sure you have an idea Fhansen what kind of ambassadors of the Lord Jesus Christ they are. – Their great commission is their great omission.

Every child of God/elect has Eternal Assurance on their salvation as described below.

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him

and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil

TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of "That Great and Special Gift of

Final Perseverance," and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of

which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’

Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who

stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final

perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and

even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas

said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and

guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote

Without this gift of God’s special grace “The Gift of Final Perseverance.” NONE OF US COULD

MAKE IT TO HEAVEN, without it the destiny of ALL OF US would be IN HELL.

God gives this special protecting and guarding grace to every of His children at baptism

called “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”

THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THIS SPECIAL PROTECTING AND GUARDING GRACE

How far this special protecting and guarding grace goes in our protection?

1. Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.
2. Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.
3. St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

God bless

LatinRight

 

[Cathoholic]

Latin Rite. You said:

I was concerned about the pattern of salvation.

I tried to prove reprobates (their names taken out from the Book of life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace from all eternity) can never be saved. . . .

Can they be “born again” or “born of water and the Spirit” or “Baptized”, then CHOOSE by their free will to eventually throw their salvation away?

Yes they can.

By definition Latin Rite, “The Reprobate” are the people who end up rejecting God definitively.

Contrariwise . . .

By definition, “The Elect” are the people who end up (or are) in Heaven.

So I probably wouldn’t phrase it that they “can’t be saved” so much as “they refuse to be saved” or in the future sense, “they ultimately will refuse to be saved”.

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. . . .

Saying they “can’t” be saved makes it sound like God is the cause for this sad fate.

Yet they themselves are the cause of their own catastrophic decision.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[LatinRight]

Latin Rite. You said:

Can they be “born again” or “born of water and the Spirit” or “Baptized”, then CHOOSE by their free will to eventually throw their salvation away?

Yes they can.

By definition Latin Rite, “The Reprobate” are the people who end up rejecting God definitively.

Contrariwise . . .

By definition, “The Elect” are the people who end up (or are) in Heaven.

So I probably wouldn’t phrase it that they “can’t be saved” so much as “they refuse to be saved” or in the future sense, “they ultimately will refuse to be saved”.

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. . . .

Saying they “can’t” be saved makes it sound like God is the cause for this sad fate.

Yet they themselves are the cause of their own catastrophic decision.

Just my 2 cents.

God bless Cathoholic,

Thank you for your post.

To understand reprobates can be saved or not we have to combine together

the Book of Life, Predestination of the elect, CCC 600, Rom.8:29-30, Rom.11:29; etc.

I working on it. Please you too try to working on it.

I will send you another post.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

Latin Rite. You said:

Can they be “born again” or “born of water and the Spirit” or “Baptized”, then CHOOSE by their free will to eventually throw their salvation away?

Yes they can.

By definition Latin Rite, “The Reprobate” are the people who end up rejecting God definitively.

Contrariwise . . .

By definition, “The Elect” are the people who end up (or are) in Heaven.

So I probably wouldn’t phrase it that they “can’t be saved” so much as “they refuse to be saved” or in the future sense, “they ultimately will refuse to be saved”.

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. . . .

Saying they “can’t” be saved makes it sound like God is the cause for this sad fate.

Yet they themselves are the cause of their own catastrophic decision.

Just my 2 cents.

God bless Cathoholic,

[CCC 600] To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “PREDESTINATION,” he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.” End quote.

According to the principle pointed out in CCC 600, God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world by taken out the names of the reprobates for their vehement rejection of God and His grace.

From the completion, the Book of Life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

The names of God’s children/elect left in the Book of Life, all of them predestined to heaven.

KEY FACTS WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND

There are two distinct groups of people in the world.

1. Elect. Predestined to heaven. Only their names are in the Book of Life.
2. Reprobates. In reality, by their vehement rejection of God and His grace they predestined themselves to hell.

THE PATTERN OF SALVATION OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD

The sequence of events in the salvation of the children of God:

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he.

1. Foreknew. – Those whom He foreknew he also predestined.
2. Predestined. – Those whom He predestined he also called.
3. Called. – Those whom He called he also justified.
4. Justified. – Those whom He justified he also glorified.
5. Glorified

It is a theological fact: God only called into His service those who are predestined to heaven no one else.

We cannot read into God called into His service the predestined and the reprobates. – What if a reprobate would die in the state of grace? God would instantly lose His omniscience.

The Body of Christ would be a mixture of the Bride of Christ and the reprobates. – It is unimaginable.

1 John 2:19 explains it:

1 John 2:19 (IGNATIUS CATHOLIC STUDY BIBLE)

“They went out from us; but they WERE NOT of us; for if they HAD

BEEN of us, they would CONTINUED with us; …”

We can be sure some of the reprobates whose names taken out from the Book of Life still among us in the Christian groups but they WERE not of us and they ARE NOT of us.

There is NO WAY under any circumstance they can be “born again” or “born of water and the Spirit” or “Baptized.”. – If they baptized and would die while some of them in the state of grace God would instantly lose his omniscience. Think about that Cathoholic.

They have been thrown away their salvation from all eternity.

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES. **

End quote Emphasize added.

If you Chathoholic still believe reprobates can be saved for a period of time, please try to explain, how does it possible reprobates are saved, they are in the state of grace and they never die in the state of grace.

Of course you have to prove also, God not only call the elect into His service but He call into His service the reprobates as well.

Also have to prove, the Body of Christ is NOT the Bride of Christ but the mixture of the Bride of Christ and the reprobates. – Which contradicts the Scripture!

God bless

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

Latin Rite. You said:

Can they be “born again” or “born of water and the Spirit” or “Baptized”, then CHOOSE by their free will to eventually throw their salvation away?

Yes they can.

By definition Latin Rite, “The Reprobate” are the people who end up rejecting God definitively.

Contrariwise . . .

By definition, “The Elect” are the people who end up (or are) in Heaven.

So I probably wouldn’t phrase it that they “can’t be saved” so much as “they refuse to be saved” or in the future sense, “they ultimately will refuse to be saved”.

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. . . .

Saying they “can’t” be saved makes it sound like God is the cause for this sad fate.

Yet they themselves are the cause of their own catastrophic decision.

Just my 2 cents.

God bless Cathoholic,

[CCC 600] To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “PREDESTINATION,” he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.” End quote.

According to the principle pointed out in CCC 600, God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world by taken out the names of the reprobates for their vehement rejection of God and His grace.

From the completion, the Book of Life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

The names of God’s children/elect left in the Book of Life, all of them predestined to heaven.

KEY FACTS WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND

There are two distinct groups of people in the world.

1. Elect. Predestined to heaven. Only their names are in the Book of Life.
2. Reprobates. In reality, by their vehement rejection of God and His grace they predestined themselves to hell.

THE PATTERN OF SALVATION OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD

The sequence of events in the salvation of the children of God:

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified; these he also glorified.

1. Foreknew. – Those whom He foreknew he also predestined.
2. Predestined. – Those whom He predestined he also called.
3. Called. – Those whom He called he also justified.
4. Justified. – Those whom He justified he also glorified.
5. Glorified

It is a theological fact: God only called into His service those who are predestined to heaven no one else.

We cannot read into God called into His service the predestined and the reprobates. – What if a reprobate would die in the state of grace? God would instantly lose His omniscience.

The Body of Christ would be a mixture of the Bride of Christ and the reprobates. – It is unimaginable.

1 John 2:19 explains it:

1 John 2:19 (IGNATIUS CATHOLIC STUDY BIBLE)

“They went out from us; but they WERE NOT of us; for if they HAD

BEEN of us, they would CONTINUED with us; …”

We can be sure some of the reprobates whose names taken out from the Book of Life still among us in the Christian groups but they WERE not of us and they ARE NOT of us.

There is NO WAY under any circumstance they can be “born again” or “born of water and the Spirit” or “Baptized.”. – If they baptized and would die while some of them in the state of grace God would instantly lose his omniscience. Think about that Cathoholic.

They have been thrown away their salvation from all eternity.

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES. **

End quote Emphasize added.

If you Chathoholic still believe reprobates can be saved for a period of time, please try to explain, how does it possible reprobates are saved, they are in the state of grace and they never die in the state of grace.

Of course you have to prove also, God not only call the elect into His service but He call into His service the reprobates as well.

Also have to prove, the Body of Christ is NOT the Bride of Christ but the mixture of the Bride of Christ and the reprobates. – Which contradicts the Scripture!

God bless

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

Latin Rite. You said:

Can they be “born again” or “born of water and the Spirit” or “Baptized”, then CHOOSE by their free will to eventually throw their salvation away?

Yes they can.

By definition Latin Rite, “The Reprobate” are the people who end up rejecting God definitively.

Contrariwise . . .

By definition, “The Elect” are the people who end up (or are) in Heaven.

So I probably wouldn’t phrase it that they “can’t be saved” so much as “they refuse to be saved” or in the future sense, “they ultimately will refuse to be saved”.

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. . . .

Saying they “can’t” be saved makes it sound like God is the cause for this sad fate.

Yet they themselves are the cause of their own catastrophic decision.

Just my 2 cents.

God bless Cathoholic,

[CCC 600] To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “PREDESTINATION,” he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.” End quote.

According to the principle pointed out in CCC 600, God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world by taken out the names of the reprobates for their vehement rejection of God and His grace.

From the completion, the Book of Life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

The names of God’s children/elect left in the Book of Life, all of them predestined to heaven.

KEY FACTS WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND

There are two distinct groups of people in the world.

1. Elect. Predestined to heaven. Only their names are in the Book of Life.
2. Reprobates. In reality, by their vehement rejection of God and His grace they predestined themselves to hell.

THE PATTERN OF SALVATION OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD

The sequence of events in the salvation of the children of God:

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified; these he also glorified.

1. Foreknew. – Those whom He foreknew he also predestined.
2. Predestined. – Those whom He predestined he also called.
3. Called. – Those whom He called he also justified.
4. Justified. – Those whom He justified he also glorified.
5. Glorified

It is a theological fact: God only called into His service those who are predestined to heaven no one else.

We cannot read into God called into His service the predestined and the reprobates. – What if a reprobate would die in the state of grace? God would instantly lose His omniscience.

The Body of Christ would be a mixture of the Bride of Christ and the reprobates. – It is unimaginable.

1 John 2:19 explains it:

1 John 2:19 (IGNATIUS CATHOLIC STUDY BIBLE)

“They went out from us; but they WERE NOT of us; for if they HAD

BEEN of us, they would CONTINUED with us; …”

We can be sure some of the reprobates whose names taken out from the Book of Life still among us in the Christian groups but they WERE not of us and they ARE NOT of us.

There is NO WAY under any circumstance they can be “born again” or “born of water and the Spirit” or “Baptized.”. – If they baptized and would die while some of them in the state of grace God would instantly lose his omniscience. Think about that Cathoholic.

They have been thrown away their salvation from all eternity.

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES. **

End quote Emphasize added.

If you Chathoholic still believe reprobates can be saved for a period of time, please try to explain, how does it possible reprobates are saved, they are in the state of grace and they never die in the state of grace.

Of course you have to prove also, God not only call the elect into His service but He call into His service the reprobates as well.

Also have to prove, the Body of Christ is NOT the Bride of Christ but the mixture of the Bride of Christ and the reprobates. – Which contradicts the Scripture!

God bless

LatinRight

 

[fhansen]

God bless Cathoholic,

Thank you for your post.

To understand reprobates can be saved or not we have to combine together

the Book of Life, Predestination of the elect, CCC 600, Rom.8:29-30, Rom.11:29; etc.

I working on it. Please you too try to working on it.

I will send you another post.

God bless.

LatinRight

LR, you’ve already been shown Trent’s position, the catechism’s position, Scripture’s position, Aquinas’s position, etc, in other threads. And yet you persist in your offbeat private interpretations, personal opinions.

The justified can lose their state of justice. They can also repent and regain it. We don’t know with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life, who are predestined to eternal life and who are not.

 

[LatinRight]

LR, you’ve already been shown Trent’s position, the catechism’s position, Scripture’s position, Aquinas’s position, etc, in other threads. And yet you persist in your offbeat private interpretations, personal opinions.

The justified can lose their state of justice. They can also repent and regain it. We don’t know with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life, who are predestined to eternal life and who are not.

God bless Fhansen,

Then please prove it. You can prove it by prove; in John 5:24; 1 John 5:13 the everlasting life is a mistake it means periodical life and death.

This is the only prove you need to do and everyone will believe you Fahnsen including me.

For that proof we don’t have to know who is an elect or reprobate.

That is a different issue. 2 Cor.13:5-6 deals with that issue.

Until then it means everlasting life.

God bless

LatinRight.

 

[LatinRight]

God knows precisely when each of us will die and whether it will be in a state of grace or not. It’s not as if God could be surprised or have His knowledge proven wrong. A member of the reprobate can be validly baptized and in a state of grace at some point in his life but ultimately lose it. There’s no risk that God will find Himself contradicted.

Paragraphs also make for easier reading.

God bless Wesrock,

Please read my post # 27.

You will see everyone will die in the state of grace who received God’s gift of Final

Perseverance and God’s gift of Everlasting life at their baptism. – These are God’s elect.

It is easy to say reprobates validly baptized.

Without proving it that statement is only your words.

Please prove with RCC teachings or Scripture that reprobates can be validly baptized.

When I write a statement I always prove it with RCC teachings or with the Scripture.

God Bless

LatinRight

 

[goout]

God bless Cathoholic,

[CCC 600] To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “PREDESTINATION,” he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.” End quote.

God bless

LatinRight

This discussion is not much different that wondering how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
There is an answer to that question, and the answer is reserved to God. And I think the point is, it is not spritually profitable or fruitful for apologetics to contemplate that knowledge or try to harness it. Maybe it’s an apple we should not be biting from. Presuming one’s name is in the book of life cannot be helpful.
You said:

According to the principle pointed out in CCC 600, God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world by taken out the names of the reprobates for their vehement rejection of God and His grace.

You’re talking about God/time in human terms here. Foreknowledge does not mean that God merely knew something “before” it happened. In God there is no time. God has his eternal plan. For us, that is “foreknowledge”. How else could we express it? But in God, before or after has no meaning.
The CCC simply can never adequately explain this attribute of God other than in the best human terms possible.

God has the book of life in his eternal plan, and, AND, we have the freedom to reject his plan even while our name might be in His book of life.

That word and is very important in Catholicism.

 

[LatinRight]

God has the book of life in his eternal plan, and, AND, we have the freedom to reject his plan even while our name might be in His book of life.

That word and is very important in Catholicism.

God bless Goout,

I know we have freedom to reject it.

Do you mean it is a possibility that an elect reject it and end up in hell?

God bless

LatinRight

 

[goout]

God bless Goout,

I know we have freedom to reject it.

Do you mean it is a possibility that an elect reject it and end up in hell?

God bless

LatinRight

Do you understand what you are asking here?
With respect, the question does not make sense.

Election is only known to God.
And (there’s that word again)
Rejection or acceptance of God’s offer of salvation is our choice in time and space.
One is an unknowable divine reality, and the other is a work in progress.

So for anyone to ask if these speculative scenarios are possible is nonsensical.
It might be worth pondering for theological reasons, but to have a specific answer? There is none.

The only course of action is for us to accept God’s offer of salvation. For you and me, that possibility of rejecting God is very real. Making that choice for God is all I need to be concerned with.

If God in his infinite wisdom has my name in that book, when I get there I’ll make sure the spelling is correct.

 

[fhansen]

God bless Fhansen,

Then please prove it. You can prove it by prove; in John 5:24; 1 John 5:13 the everlasting life is a mistake it means periodical life and death.

This is the only prove you need to do and everyone will believe you Fahnsen including me.

For that proof we don’t have to know who is an elect or reprobate.

That is a different issue. 2 Cor.13:5-6 deals with that issue.

Until then it means everlasting life.

God bless

LatinRight.

We simply cannot, with any amount of wisdom at least, take isolated passages and build our theology around them. By doing so many divergent theologies have resulted. Instead we should heed the wisdom of the entity whose members wrote the book, the Church. And this is why the Catechism teaches that, despite our veneration of Scripture:

**108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living”.73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74

113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).**

John 5:24:
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”

Here’s a similar concept expressed by our Lord in Matt 7:24:
**"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.”

So faith is not a matter of, “I hear, I believe, now, duh, I’m saved-end of story”. Faith is the beginning of our justification, not the end of it. It’s what we do with that faith-and any other gifts we receive- that determines our eternal destiny. The words of Jesus as relayed to us by St John are absolutely true, even if not inclusive of the entire truth on their own. Here are more directives from Jesus for example:
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…” Matt 28:19

**“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” **Mark 16:16

**"Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

“Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”** Matt 19:16-19

As you can see, Jesus did and said* lots* of things, many of them not even recorded according to John 21:25:

“Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

And 2 Thess 2:15:
“So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.”

1 John 5:13-15:
“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—
whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.”

We have confidence- we don’t have *over-*confidence, as in 100% certainty. And presumably not everyone who would’ve heard those words of John’s at the time ended up being among the elect, even if they thought otherwise at the time. Again, a mere profession of faith is meaningless:

“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.” Luke 6:46-49

In any case, Scripture was obviously never intended to serve as a catechism or systematized theological treatise.

 

[LatinRight]

God has the book of life in his eternal plan, and, AND, we have the freedom to reject his plan even while our name might be in His book of life.

That word and is very important in Catholicism.

God bless Goout,

I’m sorry it was my mistake. It was 3 am. and I didn’t sleep yet.

The question what I tried to ask is:

Is it a possibility that an elect rejects God’s plan and end up in hell?

I know we have free will but I never heard before that it is a possibility that an elect rejects God’s plan and end up in hell.

God bless

LatinRight