Catholic view of Justification, the Biblical support for this view, and associated theological terminology.

[Cathoholic]

“The elect” by definition Latin Rite, don’t end up in Hell.

But people who are still in this world, still in this lifetime, still in the realm of time . . . CAN be saved, then DECIDE to throw that salvation away.

If they do this, it is THEIR doing and not God’s doing.

Now I agree, these people who eventually threw away their salvation were not of “the elect” in the first place.

But they WERE “born again”, they WERE saved, they WERE re-born of water and the Spirit.

And then these people (in this hypothetical example) decided to throw their salvation that they were given away.

God does not program them to throw away their salvation.

I already showed you from the CCC that God predestines no one to go to Hell.

They freely CHOOSE to reject their salvation that they received.

That’s WHY you can be in “the Vine”, choose to not “remain” in the Vine, and choose to go to Hell.

Think of “the elect” as out of the realm of time.

Think of the concept of the elect as God’s realm.

By our WORKS, St. Peter says we can make our “calling and election sure”.

In other words, that is to show US. Not God (who already knows these things).

So don’t ask the question if “the elect can go to Hell.”

And don’t ask if “the reprobate can go to Heaven”.

These very questions have built-in self-contradictions.

 

[Cathoholic]

You can be born again (baptized), you can be saved and still not be among the elect.

If that occurs, you know THEY eventually freely decided to throw away their salvation.

 

[LatinRight]

God bless Fhansen,

I have read your post 3 times. I agree what you have written.

I view those things the same way, it makes sense. I believe, in general we have the same view.

There are CLEAR CUT THEOLOGICAL FACTS which are the foundation of those general views.

In this area I feel we don’t have the clear understanding.

Maybe because we never went into the theological facts of salvation.

If we don’t clearly understand the foundational FACTS of salvation, what we building on it like a house of cards, comes down cause confusions and destroys our faith.

I write down (using theological facts) the way I see the salvation of an elect.

I don’t go into we can know we are among the elect or not. It is a separate issue.

If we get down to the nitty-gritty we know, God saves the elect in three stages.

1. First stage of salvation; LEGAL SALVATION OF THE ELECT.
2. Second stage of salvation; PRACTICAL SALVATION OF THE ELECT.
3. Third stage of salvation; THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODIES OF THE ELECT.

1. First stage of salvation; LEGAL SALVATION OF THE ELECT.

God has chosen the elect according to God’s plan AND the co-operation of the elect with the grace of God.

Names of the elect stands written in the Book of Life, they are predestined to heaven, for them to lose their salvation is not possible.

God’s elect in the first stage of their salvation at their baptism received 100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to enter heaven as God’s free gift. – (DE FIDE)

The first stage of salvation done by faith alone, elect couldn’t even co-operate in it, it was an instant event at baptism.

End of the first stage of the salvation of the elect. Period.

2. Second stage of salvation; PRACTICAL SALVATION OF THE ELECT.

God’s plan of the second stage of salvation AND the elect co-operation with the grace of God.

The AND is not only important but it is crucial to do good works!!!

**We need to understand: **

It is big difference between our 100 % Irrevocable Legal Salvation (at the first stage of our salvation/initial justification), and our practical salvation (at the second stage of our salvation). – The two are not the same.

THIS IS OUR PRACTICAL SALVATION

This second stage of our salvation is done by Faith + Works.

In the second stage of our salvation (from baptism until we die) we have the chance to put as much supernatural work/merit under our belts as we can.

God’s plan for our second stage of our salvation AND we do our works which is; to work DECIDED FREELY (WE WORK NOT BECAUSE HAVE TO BUT BECAUSE WE WANT TO) out of love for the Glory of God. – NOT FOR OUR SALVATION!!!

WE MUST CLEARLY UNDERSTAND

If we work for our salvation, that work is wood, hay and straw, rejected by God.

We do NOT work for our salvation we work out of love for the Glory of God.

This work is NOTHING to do with our legal salvation (we already have it), EVERITHING to do with our supernatural merit.

God rewards it in heaven if our works up to the standard of good works/supernatural works.

For example:

Phil.2:12-15; We work out our salvation, …

In this stage of our salvation we work as ambassadors of Christ.

We do every kind of Christian works includes to work on to increase our holiness and justice day by day.

For our good works/supernatural merit God gives us rewards in heaven.

It cannot be the reward of heaven because we have received God’s gift of everlasting life in heaven at our baptism.

We have heaven already by Christ merit on the cross. – It was God’s free gift.

THIS IS AS FOLLOWS THE GREATEST CONFUSION COMES IN BETWEEN PROTESTANTS AND CATHOLICS

With our works (in our second stage of our salvation), we can increase our holiness and justice, but this ongoing work DOES NOT increase our 100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven.

If a Christian doesn’t understand the above theological fact, doesn’t understand salvation.

For the simple reason, which is:

At our baptism (at the first stage of our salvation) God has already given to us as His free gift: Our 100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven.

For the above reason we cannot increase our 100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to enter to heaven and we don’t need to increase it because we have it all since our baptism.

We don’t need to work for something and we cannot work for something what we already have.

Some theologically uneducated Christian believes, when we continually increase our justification and sanctification, in the same way we continually increase our Legal Right/Eligibility to enter heaven.

This is not the case at all, because at our baptism we have received as God’s free gift our 100 % Irrevocable Legal Right/Eligibility to enter heaven. – This 100 % Right CAN NOT be increased.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

**NOW WE CAN UNDERSTAND THE FOLLOWING TEACHINGS OF THE RCC ON OUR

LEGAL SALVATION (First stage of our salvation / initial justification.)

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan

Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?

We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.”

End quote. Emphasize mine.

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts

as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in

Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is

NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For

without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a

human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying

grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s

unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION. End quote.

Benedict also affirmed that Luther had correctly translated Paul’s words

as ‘justified by faith alone’ – the well known sola fide.**

Above is the technicality of our salvation.

The spirituality of our salvation is an encounter with Christ and our personal relationship with Christ.

To really understand our salvation beneficial to know both.

**CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING

Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.

The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its

object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL

GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the

Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings

out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY

KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.”** End quote. Emphasize mine.

If we live our Christian life in uncertainty, fear and doubt we can NEVER be qualified to do

supernatural works because our work instead of actual grace energized by the spirit of

slavery, the fear of hell and OUR WORKS REJECTED BY GOD.

I tell you Fhansen, the way I do supernatural work in the light of the above teachings:

1. I always keep in mind Eph.2:10.
2. I believe Rom.4:5-6; Eph.2:8-9; Rom.3:24; Rom.5:18; Rom.11:6; that I don’t have to

work for my salvation even an iota, my salvation is God’s free gift. – 100 % gift and I can contribute nothing to it.

For my work to increase my justification and sanctification God gives me reward in heaven if my work is up to the standard of supernatural merit.

But if I do my work to get or to keep my salvation I do my work for my own interest and that work is wood, hay and straw, rejected by God.

1. I believe, according to Rom.4:5-6; 1 Cor.3:12-15 **even if I do nothing or all my work

rejected by God I still enter into heaven, this knowledge SET ME FREE to freely decide to

work or not to work without the fear of hell**. – This is a condition to do supernatural merit.

There are other conditions as well. – It is not so simple to do supernatural merit. The standard is VERY HIGH.

1. I work as much as I possibly can, FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or

INTERNAL NECESSITY not BECAUSE IT WILL HELP ME SOMEHOW, but because I

want to do it out of SHEER for the Glory of God and for the love of others.

If we not set free to love freely, we cannot love.

If we not set free to freely decide to work, we cannot do supernatural work/merit.

We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,

WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **– The work we

MUST do is NOT supernatural work!!!**

MUST always kills our supernatural works/good works.

THE THIRD STAGE OF OUR SALVATION

Even of those Christians who died 2,000 years ago their salvation not yet completed.

Our salvation will be completed and we will be immortal at the fulfillment of John 14:1-3; 1 Thess.4:15-18; 1 Cor.15:42-44, 51-57; Rev.20:4-6.

**I ask you Fhansen, please correct my posts where you think need to be corrected.

This will be the greatest help that we might understand the facts of salvation in the same way.

If I made any theological mistakes, please point out my mistakes.**

God bless

LatinRight

 

[po18guy]

I seem to recall a potetially huge “IF” in Pope Benedict XVI’s wording regarding Luther and the “faith alone” issue since, if taken literally, it would directly contradict James 2:24.

 

[LatinRight]

I seem to recall a potetially huge “IF” in Pope Benedict XVI’s wording regarding Luther and the “faith alone” issue since, if taken literally, it would directly contradict James 2:24.

God bless Po18guy,

JUSTIFICATION: “BY FAITH ALONE”? James Akin

Quote: 7. On the subject of the kind of justification discussed in James 2:24, Trent quotes this verse only once and then applies it to progressive, not initial justification, so one does not have to do good works to get into a state of justification; **good works are fruits of the state of justification, not causes for entering it. **

The fact this passage does not refer to initial justification should be obvious since the justification of Abraham it refers to occurred years after Abraham was first justified by faith in Genesis 12, when By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go (Heb. 11:8).

Thus James 2:24 refers to later, progressive justification, by which one grows in righteousness, not initial justification, when ones sins are forgiven. End quote. Emphasis mine.

Pope Benedict XVI’s wording regarding Luther and the “faith alone” issue is literally correct because one does not have to do good works to get into a state of justification and then good works are fruits of the state of justification, not causes for entering into it.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[ericc]

My simplistic view of Justification. The rest seems too technical.

We are justified because of what we have become, not of what we did. Jesus 2 golden rules governs it:

1. Love God
2. Love neighbour.

If we love God, we will obey Him and try our best not to sadden Him. We can’t fake love. But we can fake our actions because the actions arose not out of love but of other baser motives. Children/spouses sometimes do the darndest things to obtain or curry favors from each other. Sometimes love just seems to be a tad missing. e.g. I did all those things for you and you must reciprocate or else no more future goodies from me.

We are not saved by doing good deeds. Good deeds are a result of genuine love in the relationship. James said , if I don’t see such good deeds, despite of what you claim, your faith is hollow. Note that he doesn’t say good deeds save. James 2:14

We are justified when we have internalized this love of God and God will take abode in us. John 14:23. Any good works we do are therefore all from God. If we have God in us, the good works are all from Him. Hence James is saying if no good deeds are seen from those who claimed to have faith, it is indicative that God is not (yet) in him.

 

[goout]

God bless Goout,

I’m sorry it was my mistake. It was 3 am. and I didn’t sleep yet.

The question what I tried to ask is:

Is it a possibility that an elect rejects God’s plan and end up in hell?

I know we have free will but I never heard before that it is a possibility that an elect rejects God’s plan and end up in hell.

God bless

LatinRight

Heaven and hell are free choices we all make, no exceptions.
Even BVM.
Do you dispute this?

 

[fhansen]

Benedict also affirmed that Luther had correctly translated Paul’s words

as ‘justified by faith alone’ – the well known sola fide.

Anyone who remotely knows Benedict and the Church, not to mention God’s will regarding salvation in general, will instinctively recognize something amiss, something* false,* in this statement without even needing to look up the quote itself. There will certainly be some kind of qualifier involved, as Po18guy mentioned.

 

[fhansen]

God bless Po18guy,

JUSTIFICATION: “BY FAITH ALONE”? James Akin

Quote: 7. On the subject of the kind of justification discussed in James 2:24, Trent quotes this verse only once and then applies it to progressive, not initial justification, so one does not have to do good works to get into a state of justification; good works are fruits of the state of justification, not causes for entering it.

The fact this passage does not refer to initial justification should be obvious since the justification of Abraham it refers to occurred years after Abraham was first justified by faith in Genesis 12, when By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go (Heb. 11:8).

Thus James 2:24 refers to later, progressive justification, by which one grows in righteousness, not initial justification, when ones sins are forgiven. End quote. Emphasis mine.

Funny, Trent actually uses James 2:20, “faith without works is dead”, in their paragraph on initial justification as an explanation for why faith, alone, is insufficient to justify us but that the virtues of hope and love are required as well, love being the necessary precursor to the works that God has prepared for us to do, love being the virtue upon which we’ll be judged. And then… the whole paragraph on the fruit of justification, which includes James 2:24, insists that those fruits are necessary to merit eternal life. Anyway, I don’t think I’d bother with Trent if I were you LR; it directly opposes a good part of your positions.

 

[po18guy]

God bless Po18guy, JUSTIFICATION: “BY FAITH ALONE”? James Akin
Quote: 7. On the subject of the kind of justification discussed in James 2:24, Trent quotes this verse only once and then applies it to progressive, not initial justification, so one does not have to do good works to get into a state of justification; good works are fruits of the state of justification, not causes for entering it.

Thus James 2:24 refers to later, progressive justification, by which one grows in righteousness, not initial justification, when ones sins are forgiven. End quote. Emphasis mine.

Pope Benedict XVI’s wording regarding Luther and the “faith alone” issue is literally correct because one does not have to do good works to get into a state of justification and then good works are fruits of the state of justification, not causes for entering into it.

God bless. LatinRight

The moment that faith arrives is a birthing. But, one must do something thereafter to have continuing life: breathe, eat, etc. Just as faith without charity is dead, so also is birth without breathing or nourishment dead.

Funny, Trent actually uses James 2:20, “faith without works is dead”, in their paragraph on initial justification as an explanation for why faith, alone, is insufficient to justify us but that the virtues of hope and love are required as well, love being the necessary precursor to the works that God has prepared for us to do, love being the virtue upon which we’ll be judged. And then… the whole paragraph on the fruit of justification, which includes James 2:24, insists that those fruits are necessary to merit eternal life. Anyway, I don’t think I’d bother with Trent if I were you LR; it directly opposes a good part of your positions.

The crucial distinction that must be made here is to separate clear, coherent Catholic theology from Luther’s unshakable belief that no works of any kind could or would be pleasing to God. Since Luther was convinced that we are filthy, detestable beings in God’s sight, there is no point in engaging in any works of charity or kindness. He left everything up to “God alone.” However, Saint Paul’s writings (“work out your salvation with fear and trembling”) must certainly have haunted him to distraction (something certainly did), as it clearly indicated that Luther was, to some degree, responsible for his own justification and ultimate salvation.

What did his own reasoning leave Luther with? Grave doubts about himself and his faith. He must have begged in tears for faith (a good thing), while living in constant torment over his detestable opinion of himself and his inability to please God. A truly dour and depressing outlook. Sadly, Luther was deceived (or self-deceived) on this point, as the words of our Lord run completely in contra Luther.

 

[Wesrock]

God bless Wesrock,

Please read my post # 27.

You will see everyone will die in the state of grace who received God’s gift of Final

Perseverance and God’s gift of Everlasting life at their baptism. – These are God’s elect.

It is easy to say reprobates validly baptized.

Without proving it that statement is only your words.

Please prove with RCC teachings or Scripture that reprobates can be validly baptized.

When I write a statement I always prove it with RCC teachings or with the Scripture.

God Bless

LatinRight

To quote Thomas Aquinas then, from Summa Contra Gentiles chapter 70:

[6] There is more. It seems superfluous to warn those not to sin who cannot sin. But in the evangelical and apostolic teaching the faithful are so admonished, although they have already received the grace of the Holy Spirit through the sacraments, for we read in Hebrews (12:15): “Looking diligently, lest any man be wanting to the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up do hinder”; and in Ephesians (4:30): “Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God whereby you are sealed”; and again: “He that thinks himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10). Even the Apostle himself says of himself: “I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway” (1 Cor. 9:27). Therefore, men are not rendered impeccable by the grace received in the sacraments.

[7] This excludes the error of certain heretics who say that man, after he has received the grace of the Spirit, is unable to sin, and that, if he sins, he never had the grace of the Holy Spirit.

[10] But the remarks taken from the Epistle of John are said for this reason: The gifts of the Holy Spirit by which a man is adopted or born again as a son of God have of themselves power enough to be able to preserve a man without sin, and a man cannot sin who lives by those gifts. He can, for all that, act against them, and sin by departing from them.

The entire premise and implication of this chapter, and of the one before and after, is that those who have received the grace of God can fall away and lose that grace. And why should Paul of all people be concerned for himself that he could become a castaway? Do you claim more assurance than the Apostle?

 

[Wesrock]

Furthermore, one cannot die the implication in this part of the Catechism:

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, **even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.**83

It’s possible for a valid baptism (those who receive it’s indelible mark and the graces conferred and configured to Christ) to not bear the fruit of salvation.

 

[fhansen]

Furthermore, one cannot die the implication in this part of the Catechism:

It’s possible for a valid baptism (those who receive it’s indelible mark and the graces conferred and configured to Christ) to not bear the fruit of salvation.

And according to the Church, it’s even possible for an unbaptized unbeliever to be saved for that matter.

 

[LatinRight]

“The elect” by definition Latin Rite, don’t end up in Hell.

But people who are still in this world, still in this lifetime, still in the realm of time . . . CAN be saved, then DECIDE to throw that salvation away.

If they do this, it is THEIR doing and not God’s doing.

Now I agree, these people who eventually threw away their salvation were not of “the elect” in the first place.

But they WERE “born again”, they WERE saved, they WERE re-born of water and the Spirit.

And then these people (in this hypothetical example) decided to throw their salvation that they were given away.

God does not program them to throw away their salvation.

I already showed you from the CCC that God predestines no one to go to Hell.

They freely CHOOSE to reject their salvation that they received.

That’s WHY you can be in “the Vine”, choose to not “remain” in the Vine, and choose to go to Hell.

Think of “the elect” as out of the realm of time.

Think of the concept of the elect as God’s realm.

By our WORKS, St. Peter says we can make our “calling and election sure”.

In other words, that is to show US. Not God (who already knows these things).

So don’t ask the question if “the elect can go to Hell.”

And don’t ask if “the reprobate can go to Heaven”.

These very questions have built-in self-contradictions.

God bless Cathoholic,

Thank you for your post.

I wish everyone saved, God has given us choice.

Deut.30:19; “…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, …”

My reasoning based on the Scripture and RCC teachings.

According to the following theological facts; God does not saves reprobates and don’t baptize them into the Body of Christ.

FIRST REASON – God’s pattern of salvation.

The sequence of events.

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified; these he also glorified.

1. Foreknew. – Those whom He foreknew he also predestined.
2. Predestined. – Those whom He predestined he also called.
3. Called. – Those whom He called he also justified.
4. Justified. – Those whom He justified he also glorified.
5. Glorified

There is no other pattern of salvation in the Scripture.

It is a theological fact: God only call into His service those who are predestined to heaven no one else.

SECOND REASON – By their baptism, and their rejection of their baptism, reprobates would profane God’s baptism, the Body of Christ/Bride of Christ.

Matt.7:6 (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)** – PROFANING THE HOLY**

“Do not give dogs what is holy; and not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.”

Commentary: “ Jesus redirects these insulting labels to anyone inhospitable to the Gospel, Jew or Gentile (cf. Phil.3:2; Rev.22:15).

What is holy: In Judaism, holiness characterized anything consecrated for covenant worship.

To treat holy articles in common manner would profane them (Ex.29:37;Lev.22:10-16).

Jesus carries this same notion into the New Covenant. End quote.

If God would give His gift of baptism the reprobates and when they rejects it they would profane God’s gift of baptism by trample it under foot and their rejection also profane the Body of Christ/Bride of Christ.

It is unimaginable that God would give the chance to those to profane (by trample under foot) His gift of baptism and to profane the Body of Christ/Bride of Christ whose names for their vehement rejection of God and his grace taken out from the Book of life from all eternity.

Cathoholic, would you give someone your most valuable gift who would profane it and reject it? – Don’t need to answer the question, we all know the answer.

We shouldn’t think we are wise then God.

THIRD REASON: If we think God need to baptize someone into the Body of Christ to know how he will act we limiting God’s ability.

God knows the way people would act under different circumstances.

God doesn’t need to baptize the reprobates into the Body of Christ to know they would profane His gift of baptism by trample it under foot and would profane the Body of Christ.

God bless

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

You can be born again (baptized), you can be saved and still not be among the elect.

If that occurs, you know THEY eventually freely decided to throw away their salvation.

God bless Cathoholic,

If we think God need to baptize someone into the Body of Christ to know how he will act we limiting God’s ability.

God knows the way people would act under different circumstances.

God doesn’t need to baptize the reprobates into the Body of Christ to know they would profane His gift of baptism by trample it under foot and would profane the Body of Christ.

Cathoholic, would you give someone your most valuable gift who would profane it and reject it? – Don’t need to answer the question,** we all know the answer.**

We shouldn’t think we are wiser then God.

God bless

LatinRight

 

[Cathoholic]

LatinRite.

Go back and re-read the citations of the Catechism.

I think your problem isn’t with me.

I think you are confused concerning the Catholic teachings.

Many of the things you have written are true, but you tend to absolutize them and ignore other aspects, verses, CCC citations, etc.

And with this post, I just want to help you have a full Gospel here and not lead others into confusion as well.

Appealing to God’s predestination is irrelevant as I already AGREE that God predestines people. All people.

So you citing Romans 8 is not persuasive concerning this discussion.

Romans 8 does NOT teach predestination “ALONE”.

It does not exclude free will and our cooperation with God.

But as I quoted from the CCC, God predestines NO ONE to condemnation.

But they CAN freely choose to be seperated from God. Even people who are regenerated or “born again” (baptized).

People who are IN Jesus, have free will too.

People who are IN “the Vine”, can freely choose to NOT REMAIN in the Vine.

And if they do this, and persist in such, they will be “cast away and burned”.

But notice they CAN fall away from grace.

The Catholic Church does NOT teach “Once saved always saved” or any approximation of this!

You asked . . .

Cathoholic, would you give someone your most valuable gift who would profane it and reject it? . . .
**
We shouldn’t think we are wiser then God. **

LatinRite.

It is also irrelevant as to what I think about me or my gifts.

God is infinitely higher than me.

*But consider . . *.

And God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son.

Would you say “the world” profaned and rejected Jesus.

I would. “Despised and rejected by men. A man of sorrows”.

So what I think about my gifts doesn’t matter here.

Did you not read the St. Thomas Aquinas quote where I cited St. Thomas as explaining that in our predestination, God takes into account our free will?

Now I agree. HOW you can have predestination and free will together is a mind bender.

We cannot understand it.

Yet that is exactly WHY I quoted the Council of Trent discussing this as a “secret” of God’s.

The co-existance of free will and predestination is a mystery.

But I am not going to ignore a subtle DENIAL of one or the other here.

And you do seem to be denying the free will component of our lives or at least minimizing it in a way that contradicts Church teaching.

 

[Cathoholic]

LatinRite (emphasis mine):

It is a theological fact: God only call into His service those who are predestined to heaven no one else.

The Holy Spirit (in Matthew 22:14):

Many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Cathoholic]

LatinRite:

QUOTE:
If we think God need to baptize someone into the Body of Christ to know how he will act we limiting God’s ability.

LatinRite. I have no idea how you came to concluding I think this?

God knows how “we will act” irrespective of if we are Baptized or not.

So I have no idea how to address your point here. Sorry. I must have made myself unclear.

 

[goout]

I wish everyone saved, God has given us choice.

God wishes everyone save, in fact he does more than wish, he acts for everyone.

According to the following theological facts; God does not saves reprobates and don’t baptize them into the Body of Christ.

No. Baptism is not a guarantee of salvation.

It is a theological fact: God only call into His service those who are predestined to heaven no one else.

Wrong. This is not a theological fact it is a misinterpretation. God calls all people into his service without exception.

It is unimaginable that God would give the chance to those to profane (by trample under foot) His gift of baptism and to profane the Body of Christ/Bride of Christ whose names for their vehement rejection of God and his grace taken out from the Book of life from all eternity.

**Have you ever seen a crucifix?
** It is not unimaginable, it is in fact a reality that God’s grace is trampled on.

Cathoholic, would you give someone your most valuable gift who would profane it and reject it? – Don’t need to answer the question, we all know the answer.

The answer is yes, God gives to those who profane him.

We shouldn’t think we are wise then God.

You should heed your own words and reexamine Catholic teaching.