Catholic view of Muslims

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bobballen_18

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Hello all,

I came across a facebook post by a Muslim friend of mine that got me thinking - she was asking why Christians claim they and Muslims believe in different Gods. I don’t usually post things on facebook about other religions because I haven’t done any research, but the question interested me so I googled it and responded back to her, basically saying the following:

Christians believe in a Trinitarian God, while Muslims do not, since they believe Jesus was just simply a messenger of God, not the Son of God/God himself. In this sense, they are different Gods, since they have different characteristics.

Is this accurate, or is this the best way to answer? Do you think it would be accurate to say that in some sense we believe in the same God - for example, their God would be the equivalent of our God the Father, first person of the Trinity? I mean, it doesn’t seem to me that we believe in totally different Gods - just that they have a very simplified version of the Christian God - almost like (no offense to any Muslims, but for lack of a better term) an unenlightened version of the Christian God?

Either way, the question of whether we believe in the same God or not to me seems to revolve around the Christian belief in the Trinity. What do you all think?
 
I believe the Lumen Gentium states that we do believe in the same God. The Muslim, thanks to their false prophet, just happens to have been mislead and believes in an incomplete (and at times very distorted) view of God.

People sometimes don’t understand this because they see, quiet correctly, that the properties or nature of God referred to by Muslims vs. Catholics are different. But what they forget is that Muslim view of God is not that different from a Catholic follower who is not well educated in their faith at times. So in that sense, Muslims at least know God in so far as natural reason allows it and whatever elements of truth their founder stole from Judaism and Christianity. But their knowledge is NOT through valid revelation. Since the Holy Trinity is not knowable by reason and is only known through Divine Revelation and the Church, the Muslim just does not know. It goes to show what a blessing it is to be Catholic and how much responsibility we have to get people out of their darkness, in to the true faith.

So it is our duty to explain to them
  1. Why Prophet Muhammad is unworthy of belief
  2. Why Christianity is true, using reason.
 
I believe the Lumen Gentium states that we do believe in the same God.
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Do you remember at all where in it that states this? Another friend (an agnostic who is partial to Islam, I believe) has chimed in on the conversation and will want hard evidence that Catholics, at least (who knows about other Christians), in the sense you have mentioned, know that Muslims know the same God we do.
 
Im sorry for the bluntness but facebook conversations are much to be desired. Besides Muslims don’t know enough of Catholicism as well.

Finally Mohammed called Christians “people of the book” which is inaccurate. If that’s as far as Mohammed understood, he’s hardly the one who knows God.

MJ
 
bobballen_18 said:
Do you remember at all where in it that states this? Another friend (an agnostic who is partial to Islam, I believe) has chimed in on the conversation and will want hard evidence that Catholics, at least (who knows about other Christians), in the sense you have mentioned, know that Muslims know the same God we do.
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This is what Lumen Gentium states
But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
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Full text here

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
 
Augustine3 said:
That’s interesting – why do you believe Muhammad is unworthy of belief?
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This is a rather long discussion.

But if I am to put it shortly, its as follows
  1. We must only accept any directly unverifiable truths from an authority
  2. The person who gives such knowledge about the supernatural must display authority over the supernatural
  3. There must be extraordinary level of testimony, unless witnessed first hand, to accept these displays of authority over the supernatural
  4. In the case of Mohammed, people claim that writing of the Quran is his biggest miracle
  5. The writing of the Quran is not necessarily a display of supernatural authority since there are those in every culture who have written texts transcending their current age
  6. Some say that Mohammed did some miracles like splitting of the moon
  7. But there are no reliable testimony to this fact. The martyrs for Mohammed simply claimed he was a prophet. We do not know if they were just mislead like the followers who die for various cult leaders today. Since they did not testify to the acts of Mohammed, we cannot know if the alleged miracles are true
  8. From the opposite end, we have witnesses who were willing to die and did die proclaiming that Christ rose from the dead, which if true would imply that Christ is the ultimate authority
  9. Mohammed who lived 600 years later from the event contradicts the event of the death and resurrection, contradicts historical truths surrounding biblical stories, contradicts the actual biblical accounts themselves and also seems to have no real reason for us to think he has authority to speak of supernatural truths or of such knowledge.
  10. Therefore, one must conclude, according to reason, that Mohammed is unfortunately not worthy of belief.
That was a very quick summary but I hope that helps!
 
Eufrosnia said:
This is a rather long discussion.

But if I am to put it shortly, its as follows
  1. We must only accept any directly unverifiable truths from an authority
  2. The person who gives such knowledge about the supernatural must display authority over the supernatural
  3. There must be extraordinary level of testimony, unless witnessed first hand, to accept these displays of authority over the supernatural
  4. In the case of Mohammed, people claim that writing of the Quran is his biggest miracle
  5. The writing of the Quran is not necessarily a display of supernatural authority since there are those in every culture who have written texts transcending their current age
  6. Some say that Mohammed did some miracles like splitting of the moon
  7. But there are no reliable testimony to this fact. The martyrs for Mohammed simple claimed he was a prophet. We do not know if they were just mislead like the followers who die for various cult leaders today. Since they did not testify to the acts of Mohammed, we cannot know if the alleged miracles are true
  8. From the opposite end, we have witnesses who were willing to die and did die proclaiming that Christ rose from the dead, which if true would imply that Christ is the ultimate authority
  9. Mohammed who lived 600 years later from the event contradicts the event of the death and resurrection, contradicts historical truths surrounding biblical stories, contradicts the actual biblical accounts themselves and also seems to have no real reason for us to think he has authority to speak of supernatural truths or of such knowledge.
  10. Therefore, one must conclude, according to reason, that Mohammed is unfortunately not worthy of belief.
That was a very quick summary but I hope that helps!
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What about the claim all attempts to produce literature greater than the Quran (in Arabic) over the centuries have failed? And the scientific claims of the Quran?
 
Augustine3 said:
What about the claim all attempts to produce literature greater than the Quran (in Arabic) over the centuries have failed? And the scientific claims of the Quran?
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Well, this can be disproved but I find it easier to grant the claim first. Then one can point out that such a thing is still not reason to think Muhammed as authoritative of the supernatural.

Given the claim is true,
  1. One can think of Muhammed as a great writer beyond anyone we ever knew. Because if not for Muhammed, there will be an alternate text we call as the greatest work of humanity anyway.
  2. One can also think of Muhammed as a great scientist or visionary ahead of his time. Arthur C. Clarke, H.G. Wells made scientific predictions in their sci-fi work. No one considers them as worthy of belief regarding the supernatural. Albert Einstein, great intellectual who made a lot of predictions and theories. We do not consider him authoritative regarding the supernatural truths.
So both of the above do not lead us to think he has access to proclaim unverifiable truths i.e. supernatural truths about God, heaven etc. Therefore, Muhammed would still be unworthy of belief.

P.S. Usually it is the Sunni branches of Islam that tend to make claims that the Quran is scientifically accurate. I find that Shia tend to shy away from it. But then again, since Shia is a minority, it doesn’t have much bearing.
 
MartinJordan said:
Im sorry for the bluntness but facebook conversations are much to be desired. Besides Muslims don’t know enough of Catholicism as well.

Finally Mohammed called Christians “people of the book” which is inaccurate. If that’s as far as Mohammed understood, he’s hardly the one who knows God.

MJ
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I asked the Muslims about this, they replied we are called the “People of the Book” because we once upon a time held in our possession the bible containing God’s revelation (prior to it being corrupt).

This presents a problem – some Muslims claim the four Gospels have been fabricated, others claim the Gospel was what Jesus preached only, hence nothing of the NT is inspired. The latter position contradicts their explanation the meaning “People of the Book”.
 
Let’s bring into this question the Jewish belief in God. Jews do not believe in a Trinity yet many Muslims believe that the Jewish faith is even more disparate than the Catholic Christian belief. What is their problem with our God? Why can’t we even get agreement that our Creator is one and the same for all three faiths of the children of Abraham?
 
bobballen_18 said:
Hello all,

I came across a facebook post by a Muslim friend of mine that got me thinking - she was asking why Christians claim they and Muslims believe in different Gods. I don’t usually post things on facebook about other religions because I haven’t done any research, but the question interested me so I googled it and responded back to her, basically saying the following:

Christians believe in a Trinitarian God, while Muslims do not, since they believe Jesus was just simply a messenger of God, not the Son of God/God himself. In this sense, they are different Gods, since they have different characteristics.

Is this accurate, or is this the best way to answer? Do you think it would be accurate to say that in some sense we believe in the same God - for example, their God would be the equivalent of our God the Father, first person of the Trinity? I mean, it doesn’t seem to me that we believe in totally different Gods - just that they have a very simplified version of the Christian God - almost like (no offense to any Muslims, but for lack of a better term) an unenlightened version of the Christian God?

Either way, the question of whether we believe in the same God or not to me seems to revolve around the Christian belief in the Trinity. What do you all think?
Click to expand...
If one states that Muslims do not believe in the same G-d as Christians based on their lack of belief in a Trinitarian G-d, then one MUST also state that Jews do not believe in the same G-d as Christians. I don’t think either of these statements is in accord with the Catholic Church, and I know neither is in accord with the Jewish faith.
 
Augustine3 said:
This presents a problem – some Muslims claim the four Gospels have been fabricated, others claim the Gospel was what Jesus preached only, hence nothing of the NT is inspired. The latter position contradicts their explanation the meaning “People of the Book”.
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👍

We have Pope Francis to give us a little glimpse of an answer (nothing new in Catholicism he was only reiterating) :

As we know, the Holy Scriptures are the testimony in written form of God’s Word, the canonical memorial** that attests to the** event of Revelation**.**

**The Word of God, therefore, precedes and exceeds the Bible. **

It is for this reason that the center of our faith is*** not only a book, but a history of salvation and especially a Person, Jesus Christ, the Word of God made flesh. ***

Precisely because** the Word of God embraces and extends beyond Scripture, **to understand it properly we need the constant presence of the Holy Spirit who “guides [us] to all truth” (Jn 16:13).

It should be inserted within the current of the great Tradition which, through the assistance of the Holy Spirit and the guidance of the Magisterium, recognized the canonical writings as the** Word addressed by God to His people who have never ceased to meditate and discover its inexhaustible riches.**

MJ
 
meltzerboy said:
If one states that Muslims do not believe in the same G-d as Christians based on their lack of belief in a Trinitarian G-d, then one MUST also state that Jews do not believe in the same G-d as Christians. I don’t think either of these statements is in accord with the Catholic Church, and I know neither is in accord with the Jewish faith.
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Apologies: I was addressing the Muslim view of Christians and their view of God. If they don’t accept our God, because of the Trinity, why do they not accept the God of the Jews who is not a Trinitarian God (but who is, in Christian terms, the Father in the Trinity)?
 
However we juggle our beliefs, the bottom line is that we are all created by the same God; and the same God hears all our prayers.

Blessings

Eric
 
I have come to understand that Jews, Christians, and Muslims do all believe in the one true God. There are certainly differences in our faiths, but I have found through dialogue with persons of these faiths we have a lot in common. I have been speaking with a Muslim and a Jew and we understand our religions are different, but we acknowledge that we are believers in the same God. I love them like my brother and my sister, and I feel loved by them too. Catholics do hold the fullness of the revelation of God and how He has revealed Himself.

I remembered reading about it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. (paragraphs #839-841)

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm

I think this paragraph is written beautifully:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”330
 
Eric_Hyom said:
However we juggle our beliefs, the bottom line is that we are all created by the same God; and the same God hears all our prayers.

Blessings

Eric
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Yes, I have always believed this, but when I bring it up with Muslim friends they deny it that we are created by the same God who hears all our prayers; whereas Jewish friends acknowledge that. I am wondering why.
 
Auntie_A said:
Yes, I have always believed this, but when I bring it up with Muslim friends they deny it that we are created by the same God who hears all our prayers; whereas Jewish friends acknowledge that. I am wondering why.
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Perhaps they depend on Mohammed more than their Quran? God is always One, but Mohammed comes along and says he’s the messenger of the one God.

Note the Catechism talks NOTHING about Mohammed.

MJ
 
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