Catholic View on Pull Out of Israeli Settlements?

[deekod1967]

Hi - I just wondered if anyone knew what the Vatican’s view is of the Israeli settlements and the pulling out of Gaza which id going on right now? Does the Church approve of the Israeli settlements or does it agree with the UN approved 1967 borders?

 

[Lance]

I don’t know the official view of The Vatican but would assume they would be for anything that will advance the cause of peace. I hope the suicide bombings stop but if they don’t, I forsee Israel retaking the Gaza strip and expelling as many Palestinians as possible and becoming much more hard line in their dealings with them.

 

[Jabronie]

Don’t ask me; I’m as pro-Israel as they get.

 

[gnjsdad]

The Vatican has always considered the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories an obstacle to peace.

 

[legeorge]

This is a really good question, I think. I would like to know where the Church stands on this as well. As for myself, I feel really conflicted about the whole thing. I can see both sides of the issue, but I feel so bad for those people. This is such a personal and religious issue for them. They risked their lives to be on the front lines for Israel and Judaism. Now they are being forced from their homes and businesses. The whole thing just makes me feel bad. I hope that this works, and the Palestinians will not use this as leverage to push their terroristic tactics further and further into Israel. I hope peace can prevail and bring meaning to the sacrifices these people are forced to make.

 

[Richardols]

gnjsdad:

The Vatican has always considered the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories an obstacle to peace.

Israel’s relationship with the Vatican is only cordial, not friendly. It recently was annoyed by what it perceived to be a lack of Vatican concern over each and everyattacks against Israelis.

They are also annoyed that the Vatican still holds to the 1948 UN resolution about the status of Jerusalem.

Decent people, the Israelis. Their government is often something else.

 

[Matt25]

In his visit to the Holy Land John Paul the Great said ewtn.com/holyland2000/News/right2homeland.htm

How can I fail to pray that the divine gift of peace will become more and more a reality for all who live in this land, uniquely marked by God’s interventions? Peace for the Palestinian people! Peace for all the peoples of the region! No one can ignore how much the Palestinian people have had to suffer in recent decades.
Your torment is before the eyes of the world. And it has gone on too long."

John Paul II continued: “The Holy See has always recognized that the Palestinian people have the natural right to a homeland, and the right to be able to live in peace and tranquillity with the other peoples of this area. In the international forum, my predecessors and I have repeatedly proclaimed that there would be no end to the sad conflict in the Holy Land without stable guarantees for the rights of all the peoples involved, on the basis of international law and the relevant United Nations resolutions and declarations.”

“Only with a just and lasting peace not imposed but secured through negotiation will legitimate Palestinian aspirations be fulfilled,” the Pope emphasized. “Only then will the Holy Land see the possibility of a bright new future, no longer dissipated by rivalry and conflict, but firmly based on
understanding and cooperation for the good of all.”

“I am fully aware of the great challenges facing the Palestinian Authority and People in every field of economic and cultural development,” the Holy Father said. “In a particular way my prayers are with those Palestinians - Muslim and Christian - who are still without a home of their own, their proper place in society and the possibility of a normal working life. My hope is that my visit today to the Deheisheh Refugee Camp will serve to remind the international community that decisive action is needed to improve the situation of the Palestinian people.”

“The promise of peace made at Bethlehem,” he closed, “will become a reality for the world only when the dignity and rights of all human beings made in the image of God are acknowledged and respected.”

 

[mpav]

I know JP the Great said that although Jerusalem was holy to Christians and Muslims, it was only promised to the Jews. I know that that doesn’t pertain to the Gaza Strip, but on that topic I keep reminding myself that it’s Israel’s neighbors that want her gone, and the occupation was a result of Israeli gains in a war begun by her neighbors.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

mpav:

I know JP the Great said that although Jerusalem was holy to Christians and Muslims, it was only promised to the Jews. I know that that doesn’t pertain to the Gaza Strip, but on that topic I keep reminding myself that it’s Israel’s neighbors that want her gone, and the occupation was a result of Israeli gains in a war begun by her neighbors.

I have been trying to make some sense of all this for a long time, and you bring up an interesting point. Please tell me where you found those words of John Paul’s. I would like to see them in context.

I also would be interested in knowing if he considered just Jerusalem as “only promised to the Jews,” or if he included all of the OT promise…an amount of land that stretched all the way from the Nile Delta to Lebanon and from the Mediterranean to Baghdad.

Any help on this would be really appreciated!

Anna

 

[gnjsdad]

Richardols:

Israel’s relationship with the Vatican is only cordial, not friendly. It recently was annoyed by what it perceived to be a lack of Vatican concern over each and everyattacks against Israelis.

Relations now are a bit frosty due to what the Vatican sees as Israeli delaying tactics in negotiations over the status of Catholic properties in Israel. The Catholic Church is really quite hamstrung in Israel. Of course, prostylization (sp?) is prohibited, and the Church is forbidden access to the media in Israel and cannot communicate in Hebrew in newspapers and television.

Richardols:

Decent people, the Israelis. Their government is often something else.

Agreed

 

[Matt25]

The Vatican says re Jerusalem ewtn.com/library/CURIA/STATJERU.HTM

The Holy See’s attitude with regard to the territorial situation of Jerusalem is necessarily the same as that of the international community. The latter could be summarized as follows: The part of the city militarily occupied in 1967 and subsequently annexed and declared the capital of the state of Israel is occupied territory, and all Israeli measures which exceed the power of a belligerent occupant under international law are therefore null and void. In particular, this same position was expressed and is still expressed by Resolution 478 of the U.N. Security Council, adopted on Aug. 20, 1980, which declared the Israeli “basic law” concerning Jerusalem to be “null and void,” and which invited countries with embassies in Jerusalem to move them elsewhere…

1. It is important to note that in its interventions the Holy See has always insisted on yet another question which, given the particular situation of Jerusalem, is of fundamental importance precisely for safeguarding the identity of the Holy City: Jerusalem is equally regarded as sacred by the three great monotheistic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In other words, no unilateral claim made in the name of one or other of these religions or by reason of historical precedence or numerical preponderance is acceptable. Jerusalem is a unique reality, universal because of its sacredness as a whole and for the three religions.

This was clearly underscored by His Holiness Pope John Paul II in his apostolic letter Redemptionis Anno of April 20, 1984. There he writes:

“Jews ardently love [Jerusalem] and in every age venerate her memory, abundant as she is in many remains and monuments from the time of David, who chose her as the capital, and of Solomon, who built the temple there. Therefore they turn their minds to her daily, one may say, and point to her as the sign of their nation…”

“Christians honor her with a religious and intent concern because there the words of Christ so often resounded, there the great events of the redemption were accomplished: the passion, death and resurrection of the Lord. In the city of Jerusalem the first Christian community sprang up and remained throughout the centuries a continual ecclesial presence despite difficulties…”

“Muslims also call Jerusalem ‘holy,’ with a profound attachment that goes back to the origins of Islam and spring from the fact that they have there many special places of pilgrimage and for more than a thousand years have dwelt there, almost without interruption.”…

1. His Holiness first invoked divine assistance: “May God assist the Israelis and the Palestinians to live from now on side by side with one another in peace, mutual esteem and sincere cooperation!” He added: “Allow me to confide that this hope could prove ephemeral if a just and adequate solution is not also found to the particular problem of Jerusalem.” (Thus the question of Jerusalem, together with all that it involves—politically, territorially, religiously, demographically, etc.—exists and is a fundamental one.)

1. The pope continued: “The religious and universal dimension of the holy city demands a commitment on the part of the whole international community in order to ensure that the city preserves its uniqueness and retains its living character.” (The pope thus calls for a commitment that is international in nature in order to preserve Jerusalem’s identity, especially from the religious and cultural point of view, the very reason why the city constitutes an important part of the world’s patrimony.) He goes on to say that: “The holy places, dear to the three monotheistic religions, are of course important for believers, but they would lose much of their significance if they were not permanently surrounded by active communities of Jews, Christians and Muslims, enjoying true freedom of conscience and religion, and engaging in their own religious, educational and social activities.”…

“It is my hope that the international community will offer to the political partners most directly involved the juridical and diplomatic instruments capable of ensuring that Jerusalem, one and holy, may truly be a crossroads of peace.” (Here His Holiness is asking for an international instrument and for international assistance to safeguard the true value that Jerusalem has for Israelis and Palestinians, for Jews, Christians and Muslims).

The Pope addresses this call to the good will of the political leaders of that region and of the whole world, and to their sense of justice. It is a plea he makes to all believers and a prayer to the God of the three religions, who chose to bless that region with a special manifestation of his presence. God did so in order to call men and women to accept, understand and make their own contribution to his message of brotherhood and peace.

 

[gilliam]

Matt25:

The Vatican says re Jerusalem ewtn.com/library/CURIA/STATJERU.HTM

From the Vatican, May 1996.

 

[Matt25]

STATEMENT OF H.E. MSGR. CELESTINO MIGLIORE

*Monday, 3 November 2003  *  *

vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2003/documents/rc_seg-st_20031103_migliore-unrwa_en.html*

The Holy See is convinced that the present conflict in the Middle East will find a lasting solution only when there are two independent and sovereign States living side by side in peace and security. To this end, questions concerning Palestinian refugees and Israeli settlements, for example, or the problem of setting territorial boundaries and defining the status of the most sacred places of the City of Jerusalem, need to be the subject of open dialogue and sincere negotiation. Mr Chairman, my delegation is of the firm conviction that the international community must assist all parties involved to realize that the occupation of the territories of the West Bank and Gaza and the terrorist attacks are triggering the unending spiral of acts of violence and retaliation which afflict both the Palestinians and the Israelis. An integral part of the current “road map” to peace clearly calls for a two State solution. It is incumbent upon both parties, assisted by the international community, to endorse the “road map” as a tool of negotiation and confidence building so that the issues of difference can be addressed and accords of resolution produced.

While these negotiations are now at the crossroads, we must continue to assist those for whom violence has become the norm for daily activity…

it is the hope of my Delegation that any solution found for the multifaceted problems of the region will include the question of the Holy City of Jerusalem. In light of the numerous incidents of violence and the rigors imposed by closures, the Holy See renews its consistent call for “…internationally guaranteed provisions to ensure the freedom of religion and of conscience for its inhabitants, as well as permanent, free and unhindered access to the holy places by the faithful of all religions and nationalities” (A/Res/ES 10-2, 5 May 1997). Current levels of violence have caused pilgrims to stay away from the Holy Land, thus imposing even more severe economic penalties on all the people of the region, besides hindering the right of people from all over the world to visit and pray at the religious sites.My Delegation also notes that the local population does not have free access to their shrines and holy places…

Many of these problems, such as the isolation and suffering of various communities, the dwindling of the Christian population due to emigration caused by harsh living conditions, lack of access to holy shrines and sites, are in some way connected to the current conflict, but that should not discourage us from seeking possible remedies, from working now to meet the challenges.

As members of the family of nations, we must continue to work for the success of every genuine effort to bring peace to the Holy Land. Only with a just and lasting peace - not imposed but secured through negotiation - will legitimate aspirations of the people of this Land be fulfilled. Only then will the Holy Land see the possibility of a bright new future, no longer dissipated by rivalry and conflict, but firmly based on understanding and cooperation for the good of all. The outcome depends greatly on the courageous readiness of those responsible for the destiny of this part of the world to move to new attitudes of compromise and compliance with the demands of justice.

**

 

[JOHNYJ]

Jerusalem in Israel now and forever ! Internationalise, what under the U N . Thats one terible Idea !
Also Israel better be ready to Re-occupy Gaza and the west bank. This time drive them all into neighboring Arab countries, where they belong !
No more refugee camps to spawn terrorism.

 

[JOHNYJ]

gnjisdat # 10
You must be thinking of Egypt or Syria. Israel is a democratic state . It has political parties,arabs sit in parliament some may even be christians.Freedom of religion is allowed in Israel.There are all kinds of Newspapers .Proselytism may be illegal, I dont know,but.There are Evangeical protestants there and they do a lot of it.

 

[Richardols]

JOHNYJ:

Proselytism may be illegal

It IS illegal.

There are Evangeical protestants there and they do a lot of it.

Not to the Jews. It is illegal, and such missionaries would be deported immediately for doing so. They may be preaching to the Arabs. That’s okay.

 

[gilliam]

Richardols:

It IS illegal.

cite?

 

[Thekla]

JOHNYJ:

gnjisdat # 10
You must be thinking of Egypt or Syria. Israel is a democratic state . It has political parties,arabs sit in parliament some may even be christians.Freedom of religion is allowed in Israel.There are all kinds of Newspapers .Proselytism may be illegal, I dont know,but.There are Evangeical protestants there and they do a lot of it.

Israel is a Jewish state and a democracy - that’s a bit of a dichotomy. I mean, can you really put qualifiers on a democracy?

“Palestinian Christians and Muslims living within Israel’s boundaries have Israeli citizenship but not the Israeli nationality. The two terms are interchangeable in the United States but not in Israel. Citizenship (ezrahut), in Israel, may be held by Christians and Muslims as well as Jews, while nationality (le’um), which bestows significantly greater rights than citizenship, may be claimed by Jews, and Jews alone.”

Sure, it’s wildly better than a dictatorship, but whenever you give different rights to different groups, you are asking for trouble.

 

[bapcathluth]

All Israeli citizens have the same rights. Druze, Circassians and many Bedouin serve in the army as do the Jews. Israelis Arabs don’t serve in the army, for obvious reasons, but they do have representatives in parliament, they can vote, they have their own state-funded schools, etc. I don’t see how this isn’t Democratic.

 

[Thekla]

bapcathluth:

All Israeli citizens have the same rights. Druze, Circassians and many Bedouin serve in the army as do the Jews. Israelis Arabs don’t serve in the army, for obvious reasons, but they do have representatives in parliament, they can vote, they have their own state-funded schools, etc. I don’t see how this isn’t Democratic.

Unlike other democracies, Israel has no single-document Consitution; they were supposed to write one, but it never got done. Also, because Israel is a Jewish state, there are rights afforded to Jews that others do not have. No one said Israel is not a democracy, but the truth is that democracies aren’y supposed to have different rights for different people.