S
Shoshana
Guest
Code:
It is such a waste of time and resources and it serves no purpose…other than man’s sickly pride! :banghead:
- Status
It is such a waste of time and resources and it serves no purpose…other than man’s sickly pride! :banghead:
R
rlg94086
Guest
Blessings Shoshona,Believe what you want to believe thestickman, but I believe in recycling!Code:
My understanding (via Michael Medved’s show) is that the Palestinians demanded the bulldozing. It has nothing to do with Israeli pride. I will see if I can find a news story with the data to back that assertion up.
Robert
R
rlg94086
Guest
Here you go…
theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050821.wisra0821/BNStory/International/
B
bekalc
Guest
The point is that the Palestinians were the natives of the land. They were promised when the helped the Allies in World WAr I, that they (the natives) would be allowed the right ot self determination.
Their land was handed over to the Israeli’s by foreign powers, when the Palestinians still made up the overwhelming majority of the population. The Palestinians never agreed to the TransJordan solution.
The Palestinians were their first and have been treated horribly. They were already living on the land, before the state of Israel was created. so what if a part of Jordan, and well then again the Jordanians were living already in Jordan; was given to the inhabitants of Jordan. It has nothing to do with the people who lost their homes and lands, when the state of Isreal was created. Thats’ the issue.
Those people at the very least deserved to be compensaed if they are to move to Jordan as some of you are arguing. But, they aren’t being compensated and Jordan is not letting many of them. So, that’s some of the problem with this argument well Jordan’s their homeland. Fine, but at the very least those displaced people deserve compensation from the Israeli government. Because well they are the natives. And native inhabitants of a land, have more rights then people who want to move into the land, as far as I’m concerned.
Their land was handed over to the Israeli’s by foreign powers, when the Palestinians still made up the overwhelming majority of the population. The Palestinians never agreed to the TransJordan solution.
The Palestinians were their first and have been treated horribly. They were already living on the land, before the state of Israel was created. so what if a part of Jordan, and well then again the Jordanians were living already in Jordan; was given to the inhabitants of Jordan. It has nothing to do with the people who lost their homes and lands, when the state of Isreal was created. Thats’ the issue.
Those people at the very least deserved to be compensaed if they are to move to Jordan as some of you are arguing. But, they aren’t being compensated and Jordan is not letting many of them. So, that’s some of the problem with this argument well Jordan’s their homeland. Fine, but at the very least those displaced people deserve compensation from the Israeli government. Because well they are the natives. And native inhabitants of a land, have more rights then people who want to move into the land, as far as I’m concerned.
R
rlg94086
Guest
The problem is the Israelis were on the land as well…technically they are also native Palestinians, as this term refers to a region which had arabs and jews. There was no nation of Palestine until after WW1.
J
jjwilkman
Guest
i have stated several times on these forae, that i think jerusalm should be an international city/state. it always goes over like a lead balloon. i get rocks thrown at me. well, now i feel better…
B
bekalc
Guest
When the Un decided to partion of a Palestinian state and the Israeli state giving the Israelis over half the country, The Jewish pouplation in Palestine made up less then ten percent of the population. The overwhelming majority of the people were the Palestinians, these people since they were living on the land deserved the right of self determination. And they were against the idea of the place they already viewed as home, being given to the Jews. Don’t they the majority have a right to be against this, and shouldn’t they be given a say in what happens now that the Ottomon empire was gone? While there were some Jews living there, the natives to the land actually were against it to, fearing it would destroy relations with their Jewish neighbors.
Jews who come from Arab lands, are actually treated poorly by European Jews. IT doesn’t matter that their wasn’t a nation of Palestinians. The point was that those people were living there, and they were promised by the British that if they helped the Allies defeat the Ottomons, they would be given self determination, and the Allies rennigged.
A great analogy would be if another country went into Puerto Rico, and said Puerto Rico’s never been a country, so that this minority religion in the group can have their own home land, screw the fact that majority of the current inhabitants arent’ that religion and so are going to be second class citizens in their own homes. In my mind ts inconconscienable.
W
walstan
Guest
So when Canada invades America you will all become Canadians!!! Just because the Canadians say so. Brilliant. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
It’s much more likely that the invasion of America will come from the south. Will? hek! Is.
S
stillsmallvoice
Guest
Hi all!
One of my very few, entirely self-imposed, cyberrules is that I will respectfully decline to participate in any online discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I’ve lived here for almost 19 years. Believe it or not, I surf sites such as CAF for r&r, to make new friends and to just get away (if even for a little while) from the reality outside my door; I need some sanctuary from “the situation” as we call it in Hebrew. These (jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html & mfa.gov.il/mfa) are pretty good sites that present a Jewish/Israeli point-of-view on it well enough.
I would, however, like to quote I Maccabees. In I Maccabees 15:33-34, Simon the Hasmonean says the following to Antiochus VII’s messengers:
It is not illegal to try and persuade someone to change his/her faith in Israel (whether Jewish or not). It is illegal to offer anyone a material/financial inducement to do so. Any organization, religious or otherwise, has full access to the commercial press vis-a-vis buying ads, etc.
Israel’s minority Arab communities are not subject to compulsory military service. However, many Muslim Arab Bedouin (tinyurl.com/4k9ep) volunteer for military service (I’ve served with several during my annual stints of reserve duty), as do an increasing number of Christian Arabs. Not many Muslim Arabs, who aren’t Bedouin, volunteer. Members of the Druze (tinyurl.com/29dtg) & (tiny) Circassian (Muslim, but not Arab) communities are subject to compulsory military service. Other than the fact that the state President must be a Jew, this is the only legal difference between Israel’s Jewish & Arab citizens. The language of instruction in public schools in the Arab sector is Arabic; the Arab sector schools have their own curriculum that is specially tailored to suit their needs.
There are, at present, 2 Druze members of the Knesset (both from Sharon’s Likud Party) and 9 Arab members (from a variety of parties). There’s also an Arab judge on the Supreme Court.
There is no civil marriage or divorce in Israel. The State of Israel has kept the system that prevailed under the former British Mandate, which in turn kept up the old Ottoman millet system. Under the Ottomans, the various religious communities had their own rabbinical/ecclesiastical-canon/sharia courts, the judges of which were paid by the state, and which had complete, legally-recognized, autonomy in matters of personal status (mainly marriage & divorce). Each religious community was free to conduct its own affairs in these matters. This system still prevails today in Israel & is recognized as the law of the land. Thus, Israel has rabbinical courts, Islamic sharia courts, Druze and Bahai religious courts and ecclesiastical/canon courts for the Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, (Latin) Roman Catholic, Maronite, (Melkite) Greek Catholic, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Chaldean Catholic and (Anglican) Episcopal communities. Thus, by law, Israeli citizens who are Roman Catholic, may not get divorced. (See tinyurl.com/2rs8q for a good article on the various Christian communities in Israel. This jcpa.org/jl/vp490.htm is a good, extensively-footnoted, article on the Christians in the Palestinian Authority-controlled areas.)
Israel has no constitution (long story; see tinyurl.com/6w2gn for an article entitled: “Development of the Law in Israel: The First 50 Years”, scroll down to the section entitled “Israel’s Quest for a Constitution”). Instead, we have 11 basic laws (the difference between a basic law and an ordinary law is that the former can only be amended by an absolute majority of at least 61 MKs, not a simple majority of those present & voting) that, together, function as a constitution; see tinyurl.com/8yjjr).
(cont.)
One of my very few, entirely self-imposed, cyberrules is that I will respectfully decline to participate in any online discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I’ve lived here for almost 19 years. Believe it or not, I surf sites such as CAF for r&r, to make new friends and to just get away (if even for a little while) from the reality outside my door; I need some sanctuary from “the situation” as we call it in Hebrew. These (jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html & mfa.gov.il/mfa) are pretty good sites that present a Jewish/Israeli point-of-view on it well enough.
I would, however, like to quote I Maccabees. In I Maccabees 15:33-34, Simon the Hasmonean says the following to Antiochus VII’s messengers:
I would like to point out a few factual errors that have been made on this thread.
It is not illegal to try and persuade someone to change his/her faith in Israel (whether Jewish or not). It is illegal to offer anyone a material/financial inducement to do so. Any organization, religious or otherwise, has full access to the commercial press vis-a-vis buying ads, etc.
Israel’s minority Arab communities are not subject to compulsory military service. However, many Muslim Arab Bedouin (tinyurl.com/4k9ep) volunteer for military service (I’ve served with several during my annual stints of reserve duty), as do an increasing number of Christian Arabs. Not many Muslim Arabs, who aren’t Bedouin, volunteer. Members of the Druze (tinyurl.com/29dtg) & (tiny) Circassian (Muslim, but not Arab) communities are subject to compulsory military service. Other than the fact that the state President must be a Jew, this is the only legal difference between Israel’s Jewish & Arab citizens. The language of instruction in public schools in the Arab sector is Arabic; the Arab sector schools have their own curriculum that is specially tailored to suit their needs.
There are, at present, 2 Druze members of the Knesset (both from Sharon’s Likud Party) and 9 Arab members (from a variety of parties). There’s also an Arab judge on the Supreme Court.
There is no civil marriage or divorce in Israel. The State of Israel has kept the system that prevailed under the former British Mandate, which in turn kept up the old Ottoman millet system. Under the Ottomans, the various religious communities had their own rabbinical/ecclesiastical-canon/sharia courts, the judges of which were paid by the state, and which had complete, legally-recognized, autonomy in matters of personal status (mainly marriage & divorce). Each religious community was free to conduct its own affairs in these matters. This system still prevails today in Israel & is recognized as the law of the land. Thus, Israel has rabbinical courts, Islamic sharia courts, Druze and Bahai religious courts and ecclesiastical/canon courts for the Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, (Latin) Roman Catholic, Maronite, (Melkite) Greek Catholic, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Chaldean Catholic and (Anglican) Episcopal communities. Thus, by law, Israeli citizens who are Roman Catholic, may not get divorced. (See tinyurl.com/2rs8q for a good article on the various Christian communities in Israel. This jcpa.org/jl/vp490.htm is a good, extensively-footnoted, article on the Christians in the Palestinian Authority-controlled areas.)
Israel has no constitution (long story; see tinyurl.com/6w2gn for an article entitled: “Development of the Law in Israel: The First 50 Years”, scroll down to the section entitled “Israel’s Quest for a Constitution”). Instead, we have 11 basic laws (the difference between a basic law and an ordinary law is that the former can only be amended by an absolute majority of at least 61 MKs, not a simple majority of those present & voting) that, together, function as a constitution; see tinyurl.com/8yjjr).
(cont.)
S
stillsmallvoice
Guest
(cont.)
Now, as to the Disengagement Plan. I’m not keen on it. I don’t think that such a thing ought to happen & I don’t think that anything good will come of it. Currying favor with the world by making unilateral concessions is a bad idea because the world in general & the Arabs in particular, will never be satisfied with the quantity & quality of the concessions we’re making & will always want more. (Anyone, in any bazaar/market, anywhere in the world knows that you don’t give away something for nothing; I’m not against the idea of evacuating certain areas in principle, but I wanna know that we’re getting something tangible in return; it’s the unilateral aspect of the Disengagement Plan that bothers me the most). I believe that the vast majority of Muslim Arabs, while some may recognize that we exist, still do not recognize that we have a right to exist. It isn’t Gush Katif per se that offends them it is our very existence here as Jews in an independent Jewish state that offends them. We shouldn’t fool/delude ourselves here; Tel Aviv, in this respect, is no different from Neveh Dekalim (the largest Jewish community in the Gaza Strip). I think that Sharon, being a career military man (see jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/sharon.html), is carrying out the classic move of withdrawing from over-extended & vulnerable lines to shorter, more defensible ones. I personally would never have built communities in the Gaza Strip (which was under Egyptian military control from 1948-67 & was not treated as a part of integral Egypt; Gazans could only, with great difficulty, move out of the Strip into Egypt proper; and of course, the late Anwar Sadat refused to take it back) in the first place but withdrawing from them now will create 2 problems. To the Arabs, it will give the impression of weakness (hey, we beat on the Jews and they ran away; let’s beat on them some more & see where else they’ll run away from). To the uneducated & uninformed in the West, it’ll give the impression that we can/should similarly withdraw from Judea and Samaria (the “West Bank”, a term coined by Jordan’s King Abdallah I, the current king’s great-grandfather), even though Gaza and Judea & Samaria are not even remotely similar/comparable. Oh well, we’ll see.
Besides, we should take a long view. We’re going to get it all back soon anyway (when the Messiah comes).
Zev Chafets had a pretty good op-ed piece on Sharon, Bush & disengagement in The New York Times the other day: tinyurl.com/bcvkx.
The whole public atmosphere here is so charged & there is so much rancor that it makes me heartsick. Those who oppose disengagement are wearing orange t-shirts & tying orange ribbons to their cars, bags, etc. Those who favor the disengagement (and they’re far less well-organized than the opponents) are tying blue & white ribbons to their cars, bags, etc. Wendy & I have tied both orange & blue and white ribbons to the Mazda & our bags. We both feel that we (Jews) are, and must remain, not friends (it goes waaay beyond that), but one people and one family despite our sharpest & most strongly felt differences of opinion; those who happen to disagree with us are our brothers & sisters now and will still be so after the disengagement. We must transcend, and be bigger than, our differences of opinion, however strongly the latter may be felt. The 3 ribbons are our statement against all the rancor & highly charged feelings. We live in a religious, very right-wing neighborhood (jr.co.il/ma/pic/ma012.htm). Orange ribbons & streamers are everywhere. Ours is, so far, the only car to sport both orange and blue & white ribbons (tied to the antenna). Yohanan (just finished 2nd grade) has told us that some of his friends have accused us of being “leftists”. As a matter of fact, we’re not; but we tell him that a) it isn’t true & that b) he should tell these friends that as much as we care about the Land of Israel, we care about the People of Israel even more. We don’t know about “right-winger” and “leftist”; such adjectives are far less important than the noun that counts, i.e. “Jew”.
(cont.)
Now, as to the Disengagement Plan. I’m not keen on it. I don’t think that such a thing ought to happen & I don’t think that anything good will come of it. Currying favor with the world by making unilateral concessions is a bad idea because the world in general & the Arabs in particular, will never be satisfied with the quantity & quality of the concessions we’re making & will always want more. (Anyone, in any bazaar/market, anywhere in the world knows that you don’t give away something for nothing; I’m not against the idea of evacuating certain areas in principle, but I wanna know that we’re getting something tangible in return; it’s the unilateral aspect of the Disengagement Plan that bothers me the most). I believe that the vast majority of Muslim Arabs, while some may recognize that we exist, still do not recognize that we have a right to exist. It isn’t Gush Katif per se that offends them it is our very existence here as Jews in an independent Jewish state that offends them. We shouldn’t fool/delude ourselves here; Tel Aviv, in this respect, is no different from Neveh Dekalim (the largest Jewish community in the Gaza Strip). I think that Sharon, being a career military man (see jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/sharon.html), is carrying out the classic move of withdrawing from over-extended & vulnerable lines to shorter, more defensible ones. I personally would never have built communities in the Gaza Strip (which was under Egyptian military control from 1948-67 & was not treated as a part of integral Egypt; Gazans could only, with great difficulty, move out of the Strip into Egypt proper; and of course, the late Anwar Sadat refused to take it back) in the first place but withdrawing from them now will create 2 problems. To the Arabs, it will give the impression of weakness (hey, we beat on the Jews and they ran away; let’s beat on them some more & see where else they’ll run away from). To the uneducated & uninformed in the West, it’ll give the impression that we can/should similarly withdraw from Judea and Samaria (the “West Bank”, a term coined by Jordan’s King Abdallah I, the current king’s great-grandfather), even though Gaza and Judea & Samaria are not even remotely similar/comparable. Oh well, we’ll see.
Besides, we should take a long view. We’re going to get it all back soon anyway (when the Messiah comes).
Zev Chafets had a pretty good op-ed piece on Sharon, Bush & disengagement in The New York Times the other day: tinyurl.com/bcvkx.
The whole public atmosphere here is so charged & there is so much rancor that it makes me heartsick. Those who oppose disengagement are wearing orange t-shirts & tying orange ribbons to their cars, bags, etc. Those who favor the disengagement (and they’re far less well-organized than the opponents) are tying blue & white ribbons to their cars, bags, etc. Wendy & I have tied both orange & blue and white ribbons to the Mazda & our bags. We both feel that we (Jews) are, and must remain, not friends (it goes waaay beyond that), but one people and one family despite our sharpest & most strongly felt differences of opinion; those who happen to disagree with us are our brothers & sisters now and will still be so after the disengagement. We must transcend, and be bigger than, our differences of opinion, however strongly the latter may be felt. The 3 ribbons are our statement against all the rancor & highly charged feelings. We live in a religious, very right-wing neighborhood (jr.co.il/ma/pic/ma012.htm). Orange ribbons & streamers are everywhere. Ours is, so far, the only car to sport both orange and blue & white ribbons (tied to the antenna). Yohanan (just finished 2nd grade) has told us that some of his friends have accused us of being “leftists”. As a matter of fact, we’re not; but we tell him that a) it isn’t true & that b) he should tell these friends that as much as we care about the Land of Israel, we care about the People of Israel even more. We don’t know about “right-winger” and “leftist”; such adjectives are far less important than the noun that counts, i.e. “Jew”.
(cont.)
S
stillsmallvoice
Guest
(cont.)
The Israeli right lives in a fantasyworld totally detached from reality because it thinks that we can beat the Palestinians into docile submission & that the latter will then, out of the fear in their hearts, leave us alone. Wrong. The Israeli left lives in a fantasyworld totally detached from reality because it thinks that if we withdraw to the 1967 lines (which the late, left-wing, Abba Eban, see jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Eban.html, once derided as “Auschwitz lines”) the Palestinians/Arabs will then, out of the goodness of their hearts, leave us alone. Wrong. Both do their respective ostrich imitations & stick their heads into an ideological sandbox of their own devising, forgetting that one who sticks his head in sand usually gets it in the other part of his body rendered prominent thereby.
And ssv lives (“on a darkling plain, Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, Where ignorant armies clash by night”; see eecs.harvard.edu/~keith/poems/dover.html) in a confusionworld immersed in reality, depressed thereby, too afraid to slip into the ignorance-is-bliss comforts of this or that fantasy.
Howzat?
Be well!
ssv
The Israeli right lives in a fantasyworld totally detached from reality because it thinks that we can beat the Palestinians into docile submission & that the latter will then, out of the fear in their hearts, leave us alone. Wrong. The Israeli left lives in a fantasyworld totally detached from reality because it thinks that if we withdraw to the 1967 lines (which the late, left-wing, Abba Eban, see jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Eban.html, once derided as “Auschwitz lines”) the Palestinians/Arabs will then, out of the goodness of their hearts, leave us alone. Wrong. Both do their respective ostrich imitations & stick their heads into an ideological sandbox of their own devising, forgetting that one who sticks his head in sand usually gets it in the other part of his body rendered prominent thereby.
And ssv lives (“on a darkling plain, Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, Where ignorant armies clash by night”; see eecs.harvard.edu/~keith/poems/dover.html) in a confusionworld immersed in reality, depressed thereby, too afraid to slip into the ignorance-is-bliss comforts of this or that fantasy.
Howzat?
Be well!
ssv
S
Shoshana
Guest
Ani Ibi:
Then, does that make us Americans??? 
Code:
S
Shoshana
Guest
Code:
G
grotto
Guest
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_10_3v.gif About the once barren land, Gaza, it can be made valuable and productive as proven by the Israeli settlers. But, and the but is big, without respect for life among people, there is nothing but infrastructure, homes, businesses, and the homey things we come to love in our lives. Right?
As for the removal and demolishing of all these good things, it is the perogative of the owner. In other words, “You put it there, now you pick it up!”
Read the Holy Bible if you need to know what type of people have occupied the land, in varying levels of authority. I think you will see that people called Jews lived there and many others of the Palestine LAND region. People come and people go; some set up shop, form families, community, live productive lives in their faith. Some people just refuse to be peaceful but instead have murder in their hearts full of hatred. I would call such a place most BARREN.
This land is being prepared for the people who need a place, but there need is no greater than those who are sacrificing their efforts in order to have peaceful lives. It serves no good to forecast behaviors of selfish greed and evil intent as if it is expected to happen. History is only good to learn something from it, not to repeat miserable human behavior.
Pray for peace! If murder and violence are allowed to continue, people will have to suck up their lost efforts and defend themselves. What else could one do?
As for the removal and demolishing of all these good things, it is the perogative of the owner. In other words, “You put it there, now you pick it up!”
Read the Holy Bible if you need to know what type of people have occupied the land, in varying levels of authority. I think you will see that people called Jews lived there and many others of the Palestine LAND region. People come and people go; some set up shop, form families, community, live productive lives in their faith. Some people just refuse to be peaceful but instead have murder in their hearts full of hatred. I would call such a place most BARREN.
This land is being prepared for the people who need a place, but there need is no greater than those who are sacrificing their efforts in order to have peaceful lives. It serves no good to forecast behaviors of selfish greed and evil intent as if it is expected to happen. History is only good to learn something from it, not to repeat miserable human behavior.
Pray for peace! If murder and violence are allowed to continue, people will have to suck up their lost efforts and defend themselves. What else could one do?
B
bapcathluth
Guest
Thank you SSV for an interesting perspective from somebody who lives there.
B
bekalc
Guest
I personally don’t trust this settlement. i have a hard time seeing why this is “independence for those people” when ISreal will control their water, air, borders etc. They are nothing in my mind but larger prison camps. As long as the Palestinians are treated this way, there is no way terrorism will stop. How much hope does the average Palestinian have?
To me, the only thing that matters is that the Palestinians were living there and they weren’t given a voice when Isreal became a “Jewish state.” Of course those people didn’t want a Jewish state in the beginning. Why would the majority at that time want a Jewish state, when the overwhelming majority of people weren’t Jewish. If someone came to the United States and said we are going to make America Muslim, (a foreign power helping them.) I wouldn’t support it either. The Palestinian people were there, and they deserved some respect, and consideration for the fact that they were the people inhabitting the land. They got none.’
It doesn’t really matter if they were a legal country or not, once the Ottoman empire was over thrown, the inhabitants of their territories deserved self determination.
Please understand I’m not saying this because I dislike Jews. For a long time I wanted to support Isreal, my stepmother is Jewish and I see the need for a Jewish homeland I really do. Especially because of the Holocaust. But the truth is if any other group did what has been done to the Palestinians, I’d be against it. I’m sympathatic to the need for a Jewish state, but I do not approve of the way this state has been built. Just as I’m sympathetic to the rights of the Palestinians, but don’t support the way some Palestinian terrorists attempt to achieve their aims.
The truth is that many Palestians I hear are trying to be citizens of Israel, but these people aren’t offered that choice. Yes their are militants, but I suspect that a large number of Palestinians just want to be able to move freely, raise their families, and build their lives just as Israelis want this. When their is food on the table and a chance of a decent life, the majority of people don’t revolt. But right now this is not the condition the Palestinians are in. From my study of terrorism, one of the goals of these groups is to get the aggressor to crack down on those normal people, so more join their cause.
Their is also the fact that eventually the Palestinians will out number the Jews in that land. And the average Arab person is reling against this injustice, and why shouldn’t they be?
AT the very least, if the Palestinians aren’t given the right to return, they at the very least deserve enough compensation so that they can build their lives in another country. But currently these people aren’t getting that. Why should the Palestinains, who have basically been living in that land for 2,000 years, feel that Israelis have more right to the land, then they do?
Personally I’m beginning to wonder why they don’t just create a great big secular state out of Isreal and write a constitution which grants freedom of religion, the right for Jewish people to return, and equal rights to all groups involved. Eventually the Arabs will have the demographic majority anyways, and they won’t be able to be beaten down forever. Any other side which wants “a pure Palestinian state” or a Jewish state in mind, should and could promptly go find unihabitated land and settle there.
To me, the only thing that matters is that the Palestinians were living there and they weren’t given a voice when Isreal became a “Jewish state.” Of course those people didn’t want a Jewish state in the beginning. Why would the majority at that time want a Jewish state, when the overwhelming majority of people weren’t Jewish. If someone came to the United States and said we are going to make America Muslim, (a foreign power helping them.) I wouldn’t support it either. The Palestinian people were there, and they deserved some respect, and consideration for the fact that they were the people inhabitting the land. They got none.’
It doesn’t really matter if they were a legal country or not, once the Ottoman empire was over thrown, the inhabitants of their territories deserved self determination.
Please understand I’m not saying this because I dislike Jews. For a long time I wanted to support Isreal, my stepmother is Jewish and I see the need for a Jewish homeland I really do. Especially because of the Holocaust. But the truth is if any other group did what has been done to the Palestinians, I’d be against it. I’m sympathatic to the need for a Jewish state, but I do not approve of the way this state has been built. Just as I’m sympathetic to the rights of the Palestinians, but don’t support the way some Palestinian terrorists attempt to achieve their aims.
The truth is that many Palestians I hear are trying to be citizens of Israel, but these people aren’t offered that choice. Yes their are militants, but I suspect that a large number of Palestinians just want to be able to move freely, raise their families, and build their lives just as Israelis want this. When their is food on the table and a chance of a decent life, the majority of people don’t revolt. But right now this is not the condition the Palestinians are in. From my study of terrorism, one of the goals of these groups is to get the aggressor to crack down on those normal people, so more join their cause.
Their is also the fact that eventually the Palestinians will out number the Jews in that land. And the average Arab person is reling against this injustice, and why shouldn’t they be?
AT the very least, if the Palestinians aren’t given the right to return, they at the very least deserve enough compensation so that they can build their lives in another country. But currently these people aren’t getting that. Why should the Palestinains, who have basically been living in that land for 2,000 years, feel that Israelis have more right to the land, then they do?
Personally I’m beginning to wonder why they don’t just create a great big secular state out of Isreal and write a constitution which grants freedom of religion, the right for Jewish people to return, and equal rights to all groups involved. Eventually the Arabs will have the demographic majority anyways, and they won’t be able to be beaten down forever. Any other side which wants “a pure Palestinian state” or a Jewish state in mind, should and could promptly go find unihabitated land and settle there.
L
Leeta
Guest
In East Jerusalem, there were many Catholic Palestinians who had properties near the Wailing Wall which were occupied and seized by Israeli squaters who want to help God fulfill what many Jews of the Zionist persuasion see as prophecies in the Old Testament. They want to rebuild the Temple (now how is that going to happen when a mosque is sitting on top of it? perhaps these Jews foresee the conversion of all Muslims, too?).
The Old Testament prophecies concern the Catholic Church which is the Kingdom of God.
The Israelis have legal abortion and they encourage and fund embryonic stem cell research and sell Jewish embryos to German researchers so that deadly experiments can be carried out on them. The birth rate is not reproductive among Israelis. So how are they going to prevail? Simply by force of arms.
I saw a demonstration on my way to pray at Planned Parenthood, of Jews critical of the Israeli government. One sign read, The Oppressed have Become the Oppressors".
I agree with the Vatican. Its plan seems the only reasonable first step for these peoples to begin to live in peace.
The withdrawal from Gaza is a good first step. The next step is for everyone to forgive from the heart instead of living by “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth”.
But then the Muslims and Jews are not christians and don’t have a cultural background to consider forgiveness.
The Old Testament prophecies concern the Catholic Church which is the Kingdom of God.
The Israelis have legal abortion and they encourage and fund embryonic stem cell research and sell Jewish embryos to German researchers so that deadly experiments can be carried out on them. The birth rate is not reproductive among Israelis. So how are they going to prevail? Simply by force of arms.
I saw a demonstration on my way to pray at Planned Parenthood, of Jews critical of the Israeli government. One sign read, The Oppressed have Become the Oppressors".
I agree with the Vatican. Its plan seems the only reasonable first step for these peoples to begin to live in peace.
The withdrawal from Gaza is a good first step. The next step is for everyone to forgive from the heart instead of living by “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth”.
But then the Muslims and Jews are not christians and don’t have a cultural background to consider forgiveness.
A
akitapip
Guest
I heard each settler family (or settler?) is getting $300,000.
A
Adonis33
Guest
Where did you hear this from? Would this be $300,000 in addition to a new house?
- Status