Catholic View toward Protestants

[dnar]

If you’re strong in your Catholic faith. Then again, why listen to Joel Osteen? I wouldn’t.

Jon

I wouldn’t listen to him either. I was just trying to give an example, and I don’t know of any other Protestant preachers…

 

[JonNC]

I wouldn’t listen to him either. I was just trying to give an example, and I don’t know of any other Protestant preachers…

There’s probably a Lutheran one in town. But you don’t have to go there to hear what he must say. You can read the Lutheran Confessions online.

My simple point is that before you do, be strong in your Catholic faith.

Jon

 

[jpelham]

If you’ll pardon my directness, God certainly does not call anyone to heresy, and every Protestant sect is heretical. It is also true, however, that if the universal call to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church is obscured or distorted by ambient noise, of the world and its prince, who does his best to confuse things, and the seeker does his or her best to humbly seek the truth, then God’s grace is sufficient even for those who, through no willful fault of their own, have been diverted from the fullness of the truth.

 

[aragonjohn1]

The CC recognizes varying degrees of truth in Protestant beliefs/theology-knowing that they lack the “fullness of truth” to be found only in the Catholic Church. She calls them “separated brethren” who profess a belief in the Trinity and Baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I agree!

 

[theyoungmonk]

While a protestant may be called to any of the valid vocations, in this case the priesthood (/diaconate), they would be unable to fully fulfil that vocation. So they may create some form of shadow/imitation vocation, so it may be possible that said protestant minister is called to Holy Orders, but his heresy stops his understanding of the priesthood and thus he takes the wrong path. Thus Pastor X may be called to preach the Gospel that doesn’t mean he is fulfilling it fully or that God is calling him to preach the parts that are erroneous.

He is called though to holiness and union in Christ’s One Holy and Apostolic Church, as are we all, thus he is most certainly not called to preach protestant heresy.

 

[Ungern]

Although the Orthodox don’t use the word “transubstantiation”, they are saying what transubstantiation means. Guess they don’t like philosophical terms.

This is why I like how our eastern brethren use the term Mysteries to refer to the Sacraments. The full nature of what happens is truly beyond complete human understanding–even though we can experience it in its fullness.

Sometimes we can let our human intellect get focused on the details that we forget that the full nature can not be completely understood with our limited human intellect. This is where faith comes in.

Just my humble thoughts.

Ungern

 

[Danize]

The Catholic Church teaches that most Protestant churches are still in some imperfect communion with the Catholic Church, the one true and universal church. They derive their verasity and commission to preach the Gospel via this unsevered spiritual connection. The Holy Trinity is one and so too those who acknowledge it as formulated in the Nicean Creed, a creed that major Protestant denominations adhere to. Of course, much of this goes unacknowledged by said Prostestant churches…

 

[jwakja]

In my wothless opinion I look at protestants as people who shun what God has asked or directed us to do on earth in order to attain heaven and be with Him eternally, which isn’t easy by my means, and set up their own rules. They essentially tell God “here is how WE are going to act, believe, and worship you regardless of what You have asked us to accept and perform”. WE follow OUR rules and demands NOT what You ordered us to do here on earth. In essence, WE do what We want and NOT what YOU want. But please accept this since WE want it and take us to heaven anyway, OK!

 

[richardferris]

In my wothless opinion I look at protestants as people who shun what God has asked or directed us to do on earth in order to attain heaven and be with Him eternally, which isn’t easy by my means, and set up their own rules. They essentially tell God “here is how WE are going to act, believe, and worship you regardless of what You have asked us to accept and perform”. WE follow OUR rules and demands NOT what You ordered us to do here on earth. In essence, WE do what We want and NOT what YOU want. But please accept this since WE want it and take us to heaven anyway, OK!

I would caution against that strong of a view in all respects. I made my way from Pentecostal to LCMS Lutheran and simply never considered Catholicism because I was raised in Protestant thinking that Catholic teaching/church was corrupt. I was truly seeking truth and wanting to find the most faithful church, which is why I landed in LCMS.

NOW however, my eyes are open to the fullness of the deposit of faith and the authority which is invested in Christ’s church - and I am enrolled in RCIA in the local Catholic parish! I eagerly await full communion with my brothers and sisters in the Catholic church!

 

[jpelham]

Here is a review of Saint Cyprian’s examination of the tendency to leave the Church and start one’s own in the 3rd century:

stpeterslist.com/6272/those-who-start-their-own-church-follow-the-voice-of-satan-11-teachings-from-st-cyprian-ad-250/

Athanasius did not leave when most of the Church was infected by Arianism. Learned Luther’s studies evidently slighted the example of Athanasius.

 

[rfournier103]

My view is that we share a love of Jesus, and I truly pray that we can all be reunited one day AS WE SHOULD BE. I embrace ALL followers of Christ as my brothers, and I would welcome any and all who wish to join us, regardless of their previous affiliation.

That being said… men like Jack Chick, Ian Paisley, and James White make it very hard for me to be charitable sometimes and I am forever thankful that these so-called ‘defenders of true Christianity’ are in a distinct minority. Their anger and hatred is stunningly, and embarassingly repugnant.

I guess it could be said I hold two views… One for your everyday God-fearing Protestants, and another for the hate-mongers; who are so blinded by their hatred, they refuse to see the love, message, and charity of God, Jesus, and the Catholic Church.

 

[gkoomen]

Nita,

Thanks - Couldn’t have said it better myself…

One thing I would add though…At least two of the Protestant Churches do worship through “The mass” and both of these do hold to the “real presence”. These are the Lutheran and Anglican Churches. In fact the Anglican views (high Anglican) are so near to the Catholic view that the Church has made provision for them to enter the Catholic Church while retaining most of their practices. This is the “Anglican Ordinate”

I believe that Lutherans have defined the real presence as “Consubstantiation” but I don’t believe that the Anglican Church has attempted a definition.
The EO likewise has not attempted to define or explain the mystery of the real presence.

Peace
James

I was an Anglican for most of my adult life. (a long time!) The Book of Common Prayer states that, “The Body and Blood of Christ are received only in a spiritual and heavenly manner.” The Articles of Religion condemn trans substantiation. Some High Anglicans believe it because the Church claims no teaching authority - the authority is in “God’s Word written”. I always believed I was receiving Jesus; but since becoming Catholic the experience of the Eucharist has become so much more rich and powerful. I feel sorry for those who don’t enjoy it. Yet, God didn’t call me into the Catholic Church until 4 years ago. And I knew Protestant pastors who were definitely called by God. I guess we just have to leave Him to run things His Way.

 

[Chuck_Finley]

dnar:

if a man says “God has called me to be a preacher and spread his word.” If this man is protestant, this cannot be true can it?

If he means “God has given me extra-Biblical revelation and revealed to me that he wants me to be a preacher”, then, no. But if he means that God has called me to be preachers through His word and that he met the criteria for that call, sure.

1. Paul wrote to us under the inspiration of God.

1. Under the inspiration of God, Paul said if anyone preach another gospel let that one be accursed.

1. Therefore, Paul under the inspiration of God said 'Protestants are accursed."

Is this not logical?

No, because you haven’t defined what is another gospel" or demonstrated that Protestants teach a Gospel different than the one Paul talked about.

 

[jpelham]

…But if he means that God has called me to be preachers through His word and that he met the criteria for that call, sure.

…you haven’t defined what is another gospel" or demonstrated that Protestants teach a Gospel different than the one Paul talked about.

That Protestants teach a gospel different from that of the Catholic Church, which is built upon ‘the one Paul talked about,’ is clear.

The one who perceives a call to be a Protestant preacher surely may be hearing something that originates in a true calling, but if he has not yet questioned whether the ‘still small voice’ has been distorted by a trusted chorus of protestations against the apostolic priesthood, then he could honestly join their refrains, and still be part of a Christian community with salvific benefits. But that is not the Church. The Church teaches just this.

In other words, certainly God never calls one to be a Protestant preacher, because one cannot be called to preach an erroneous or incomplete gospel. But if one mistakes a call to the altar for a call to the pulpit, and he has done the best he can do, then even if he has chosen spiritual life in a pitched tent instead of the castle, God’s grace is sufficient.

 

[JonNC]

That Protestants teach a gospel different from that of the Catholic Church, which is built upon ‘the one Paul talked about,’ is clear.

The one who perceives a call to be a Protestant preacher surely may be hearing something that originates in a true calling, but if he has not yet questioned whether the ‘still small voice’ has been distorted by a trusted chorus of protestations against the apostolic priesthood, then he could honestly join their refrains, and still be part of a Christian community with salvific benefits. But that is not the Church. The Church teaches just this.

In other words, certainly God never calls one to be a Protestant preacher, because one cannot be called to preach an erroneous or incomplete gospel. But if one mistakes a call to the altar for a call to the pulpit, and he has done the best he can do, then even if he has chosen spiritual life in a pitched tent instead of the castle, God’s grace is sufficient.

On this point, from the USCCB

1. Catholic judgment on the authenticity of Lutheran ministry need not be of an all-or-nothing nature. The Decree on Ecumenism of Vatican II distinguished between relationships of full ecclesiastical communion and those of imperfect communion to reflect the varying degrees of differences with the Catholic Church.(164) The communion of these separated communities with the Catholic Church is real, even though it is imperfect. Furthermore, the decree positively affirmed:

Our separated brothers and sisters also celebrate many sacred actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each church or community, and must be held capable of giving access to that communion in which is salvation.(165)

Commenting on this point, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith, wrote in 1993 to Bavarian Lutheran bishop Johannes Hanselmann:

I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.(166)

If the actions of Lutheran pastors can be described by Catholics as “sacred actions” that “can truly engender a life of grace,” if communities served by such ministers give “access to that communion in which is salvation,” and if at a eucharist at which a Lutheran pastor presides is to be found “the salvation-granting presence of the Lord,” then Lutheran churches cannot be said simply to lack the ministry given to the church by Christ and the Spirit. In acknowledging the imperfect koinonia between our communities and the access to grace through the ministries of these communities, we also acknowledge a real although imperfect koinonia between our ministries.

1. Ecumenical understanding would be furthered if in official Roman Catholic documents Vatican II’s reference to defectus in the sacrament of Order among “ecclesial communities” were translated by such words as “defect” or “deficiency.”(167) As Walter Cardinal Kasper has stated: “On material grounds [aus der Sachlogik], and not merely on the basis of the word usage of the Council, it becomes clear that defectus ordinis does not signify a complete absence, but rather a deficiency [Mangel] in the full form of the office.”(168) Translations of defectus as “lack” misleadingly imply the simple absence of the reality of ordination. Translation as “defect” or “deficiency” would be consistent with the sort of real but imperfect recognition of ministries proposed above. While short of full recognition, such partial recognition would provide the basis for first steps toward a reconciliation of ministries as envisioned, e.g., in the international Roman Catholic-Lutheran statement Facing Unity.(169)

109.** We recommend that Roman Catholic criteria for assessing authentic ministry include attention to a ministry’s faithfulness to the gospel and its service to the communion of the church, and that defectus ordinis as applied to Lutheran ministries be translated as “deficiency” rather than “lack.”**

nccbuscc.org/seia/koinonia.shtml#9

Seems Catholic clergy - Bishops! - hold a different view than the ones you express in your post.
Jon

 

[jpelham]

On this point, from the USCCB

Seems Catholic clergy - Bishops! - hold a different view than the ones you express in your post.
Jon

How? Granting that my post was too abbreviated. Does God call one to anything but the truth? And can the truth be, in any respect, “deficient”?

 

[JonNC]

How? Granting that my post was too abbreviated. Does God call one to anything but the truth? And can the truth be, in any respect, “deficient”?

I would encourage you to ask your Bishop, if you are in the US. I believe there are things in Catholic teaching that are wrong (very few, mind you) , but Ihave no question of the calling and indeed valid ordination of, for example, the local Catholic priest who is a very good friend.

Jon

 

[SPH1]

I agree that it must be made clear exactly what St. Paul meant about “another gospel.” Probably most Protestants would think that means “faith alone.” But I don’t know that that is what St. Paul meant, especially since St. Paul didn’t explicitly say those words. The Gospel could also mean the birth, death, resurrection, etc. of Christ. Or perhaps St. Paul meant the whole of the orthodox Christian experience.

We can get into whether God is calling people to be ministers/followers of Islam, Hinduism, etc. And these may also have some truth, to varying degrees.

There is one other thing from St. Paul: God is not the author of confusion. 1 Cor. 14:33. So it’s not possible that God is calling Protestant clergy, at least in the sense he is calling Catholic clergy. (Nor did God “found” Protestantism.)

In my mind, the issue not only involves how close one is to Catholic truth, but their attitude toward the Holy Catholic Church. Those actively hostile, trying to bring Catholics out at every opportunity, are - at best - in the same position of St. Paul BEFORE his conversion: persecuting Christ’s Church. IMO, they are in the worst position with God.

 

[jpelham]

I believe there are things in Catholic teaching that are wrong (very few, mind you), but I have no question of the calling and indeed valid ordination of, for example, the local Catholic priest who is a very good friend.

The you are a very unusual Protestant. And I encourage you to charitably study Catholic teaching, and discuss it with your friend.

 

[JonNC]

The you are a very unusual Protestant. And I encourage you to charitably study Catholic teaching, and discuss it with your friend.

I would surely hope not. I’ve never heard any Lutheran question the validity of Catholic orders, and I think that would apply to Anglicans as well. But you are right; there are many who don’t, and referring to SPH1’s comment, I see only an advancement of division, against Christ’s call, in being actively hostile to the clergy who are in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

I’m having dinner with him next week, notfor theological purposes, though it could easily come up.

Jon