Catholic View toward Protestants

[jpelham]

…Second, I think it would be more appropriate to say that Unlike the many other *religions *
the Catholic church leaves Salvation to God. I have never been in a protestant church that did not teach that Salvation was God’s free and undeserved gift to us, and that only through repentance, acceptance, and belief do we attain His Grace. Only a few versions/denominations/factions seem to add that any other actions or works were necessary…

Virtually all Protestant communities regard their doctrinal commitment to be the single correct one, and other confessions to be, perhaps in varying degrees, heretically deficient. Calvinist communities are a case in point. The salvation of souls committed to ‘erronious’ confessions is in their view uncertain at best, leaving aside the dogmatic issue of predestination in Calvinism, Virtually all Protestant commiunities regard members of the Catholic Church to be lost and deceived, on the road to perdition. The Catholic Church regards all who sincerely search for the Truth to be compensated by the grace of God for deficiencies that are beyond their knowledge or control.

It is accurate to say, “Unlike the many other communities of our separated Christian brethren.”

 

[Jehannette]

I hope you don’t mind me further questioning a few of these points

First, I understand that Catholics say you do not have to be Catholic to be accepted by God ( an interesting choice of words I note) I also understand that the church says you do not even have to be a Christian to be accepted by God? A kind of Natural Salvation if you will.

This is not what the Church reaches:

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Of course, it is Baptism which makes one a member of the Church:

1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: “Therefore . . . we are members one of another.” Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.”

And, “Outside the Church there is no salvation”:

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Conclusions:

1. One cannot choose not to be Baptized.
2. One cannot choose not to be Catholic.

 

[jpelham]

… Calvinist communities are a case in point. The salvation of souls committed to ‘erronious’ confessions is in their view uncertain at best…"

“…erroneous…” - please pardon my rush.

 

[jncarlos007]

Virtually all Protestant communities regard their doctrinal commitment to be the single correct one, and other confessions to be, perhaps in varying degrees, heretically deficient. Calvinist communities are a case in point. The salvation of souls committed to ‘erronious’ confessions is in their view uncertain at best, leaving aside the dogmatic issue of predestination in Calvinism, Virtually all Protestant commiunities regard members of the Catholic Church to be lost and deceived, on the road to perdition. The Catholic Church regards all who sincerely search for the Truth to be compensated by the grace of God for deficiencies that are beyond their knowledge or control.

It is accurate to say, “Unlike the many other communities of our separated Christian brethren.”

Unfortunately I have to agree with your post. I am only recently studying Calvinsim so I cannot comment too much on the actual point there, but I understand the spirit of your position. Again I would change one word in your point, the first ‘Protestant’ to ‘Religious’, as it only makes sense that any member of any religion would regard their doctrine to be the only true doctrine (even “tolerant” and/or relativists must adhere to that idea) and all others to have various true or false premises within them.

 

[jncarlos007]

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

This ending contradicts everything you quoted above it, which was my point to begin with. According to what you just posted, you do not have to be Catholic, baptized, or Christian to achieve eternal salvation, but yet you do as well. So what is the point? This is the question I want an answer for, and I am not just asking because you are Catholic and I want a “gotcha” moment, I ask EVERYONE these questions, and so far very few want, or can, answer them.

I know what my “idea” is for the answer, but I want to know official “we are right and true” positions as well.

PS- I
do choose not to be Catholic, and I have my reasons for that, but they are probably not what you would expect

 

[JonNC]

Virtually all Protestant communities regard their doctrinal commitment to be the single correct one, and other confessions to be, perhaps in varying degrees, heretically deficient. Calvinist communities are a case in point. The salvation of souls committed to ‘erronious’ confessions is in their view uncertain at best, leaving aside the dogmatic issue of predestination in Calvinism, **Virtually all Protestant commiunities regard members of the Catholic Church to be lost and deceived, on the road to perdition. **The Catholic Church regards all who sincerely search for the Truth to be compensated by the grace of God for deficiencies that are beyond their knowledge or control.

It is accurate to say, “Unlike the many other communities of our separated Christian brethren.”

I honestly don’t believe this to be a fact. Lutherans certainly do not. Anglicans don’t. I don’t believe Methodists do. I would guess that the rather liberal, anything goes types don’t. In fact, I suspect the bolded opinion is probably a rather narrow swath of communions.

Jon

 

[jpelham]

…I would change one word in your point, the first ‘Protestant’ to ‘Religious’, as it only makes sense that any member of any religion would regard their doctrine to be the only true doctrine…

Agreed, with thanks for your apt clarification.

 

[jpelham]

This ending contradicts everything you quoted above it, which was my point to begin with. According to what you just posted, you do not have to be Catholic, baptized, or Christian to achieve eternal salvation, but yet you do as well. …I know what my “idea” is for the answer, but I want to know official “we are right and true” positions as well.

The Catholic stand is consistent, as you likely at least suspect already. Why let someone else transmit or paraphrase the canonical Catholic answer to you? You can settle this by reviewing the few sections of the Catechism that are concerned with the “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” issue.

Another feature of Catholic thought is categorical acceptance of the validity of reason, which the Gospel of John requires, which in fact the intelligibility of the Gospel requires. The Logos is not merely “Word,” but “Word and Reason.” Pope Benedict’s Regensburg Address (9/12/06) is perhaps the most concise and insightful contrast of Catholic and Protestant views of faith and reason. Although its treatment of Islamic thought received all of the media attention, it is almost incidental. The effort to digest it is well rewarded.

 

[jpelham]

I honestly don’t believe this to be a fact.

I appreciate that doctrinal diversity even within denominations makes generalizations problematical. I thought that traditional Lutheranism helped set the pattern for the more exclusive claims of salvation. What is the doctrinal stand?

 

[Jehannette]

This ending contradicts everything you quoted above it, which was my point to begin with.

Paragraph 848 comes with a footnote:

From the Headquarters of the Holy Office, Aug. 8, 1949.

Your Excellency:

This Supreme Sacred Congregation has followed very attentively the rise and the course of the grave controversy stirred up by certain associates of “St. Benedict Center” and “Boston College” in regard to the interpretation of that axiom: “Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

After having examined all the documents that are necessary or useful in this matter, among them information from your Chancery, as well as appeals and reports in which the associates of “St. Benedict Center” explain their opinions and complaints, and also many other documents pertinent to the controversy, officially collected, the same Sacred Congregation is convinced that the unfortunate controversy arose from the fact that the axiom, “outside the Church there is no salvation,” was not correctly understood and weighed, and that the same controversy was rendered more bitter by serious disturbance of discipline arising from the fact that some of the associates of the institutions mentioned above refused reverence and obedience to legitimate authorities.

Accordingly, the Most Eminent and Most Reverend Cardinals of this Supreme Congregation, in a plenary session held on Wednesday, July 27, 1949, decreed, and the august Pontiff in an audience on the following Thursday, July 28, 1949, deigned to give his approval, that the following explanations pertinent to the doctrine, and also that invitations and exhortations relevant to discipline be given:

We are bound by divine and Catholic faith to believe all those things which are contained in the word of God, whether it be Scripture or Tradition, and are proposed by the Church to be believed as divinely revealed, not only through solemn judgment but also through the ordinary and universal teaching office (, n. 1792).

Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.

However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.

Now, in the first place, the Church teaches that in this matter there is question of a most strict command of Jesus Christ. For He explicitly enjoined on His apostles to teach all nations to observe all things whatsoever He Himself had commanded (Matt. 28: 19-20).

Now, among the commandments of Christ, that one holds not the least place by which we are commanded to be incorporated by baptism into the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, and to remain united to Christ and to His Vicar, through whom He Himself in a visible manner governs the Church on earth.

Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.

Not only did the Savior command that all nations should enter the Church, but He also decreed the Church to be a means of salvation without which no one can enter the kingdom of eternal glory.

In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man’s final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circumstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance (, nn. 797, 807).

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.

These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.

Discussing the members of which the Mystical Body is-composed here on earth, the same august Pontiff says: “Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.”

Toward the end of this same encyclical letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who “are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire,” and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition “in which they cannot be sure of their salvation” since “they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church” (AAS, 1. c., p. 243). With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally well in every religion (cf. Pope Pius IX, Allocution, , in , n. 1641 ff.; also Pope Pius IX in the encyclical letter, , in , n. 1677).

But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: “For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him” (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): “Faith is the beginning of man’s salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children” (Denzinger, n. 801).

From what has been said it is evident that those things which are proposed in the periodical , fascicle 3, as the genuine teaching of the Catholic Church are far from being such and are very harmful both to those within the Church and those without.

From these declarations which pertain to doctrine, certain conclusions follow which regard discipline and conduct, and which cannot be unknown to those who vigorously defend the necessity by which all are bound’ of belonging to the true Church and of submitting to the authority of the Roman Pontiff and of the Bishops “whom the Holy Ghost has placed . . . to rule the Church” (Acts 20:28).

Hence, one cannot understand how the St. Benedict Center can consistently claim to be a Catholic school and wish to be accounted such, and yet not conform to the prescriptions of canons 1381 and 1382 of the Code of Canon Law, and continue to exist as a source of discord and rebellion against ecclesiastical authority and as a source of the disturbance of many consciences.

Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a “Defender of the Faith,” and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities, and has not even feared to incur grave sanctions threatened by the sacred canons because of his serious violations of his duties as a religious, a priest, and an ordinary member of the Church.

Finally, it is in no wise to be tolerated that certain Catholics shall claim for themselves the right to publish a periodical, for the purpose of spreading theological doctrines, without the permission of competent Church authority, called the “<imprimatur,>” which is prescribed by the sacred canons.

Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church seriously bear in mind that after “Rome has spoken” they cannot be excused even by reasons of good faith. Certainly, their bond and duty of obedience toward the Church is much graver than that of those who as yet are related to the Church “only by an unconscious desire.” Let them realize that they are children of the Church, lovingly nourished by her with the milk of doctrine and the sacraments, and hence, having heard the clear voice of their Mother, they cannot be excused from culpable ignorance, and therefore to them apply without any restriction that principle: submission to the Catholic Church and to the Sovereign Pontiff is required as necessary for salvation.

In sending this letter, I declare my profound esteem, and remain,

Your Excellency’s most devoted,

F. Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani.

A. Ottaviani, Assessor.

(Private); Holy Office, 8 Aug., 1949.

 

[WTSherman]

My advice is that all Christians would be better served if we join together under a united banner. It is better that Protestants hate me as friends than Muslims and every other religion hate me as enemies.

 

[Wretched_Man]

Well, the Catholic Church received the deposit of Faith in regards to the Holy Trinity and it was declared in the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.:

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum01.htm

Soon after the Nicene Creed was formed. Here it is in its present form:

newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm

And here is the Catechism about it:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm

More information included on the links provided.

Now why do you say that the subject is taboo by the CC?

Peace,

Jose

Thank you for your response but not sure if the Catechism you quoted from really shed light on the role of the Holy Spirit, although you alluded to the trinity and explaining it through quoting the Catechism , but not much was mentioned specifically on the Holy Spirit and his role. What is the role of the Holy Spirit to the CC…?.

 

[Wretched_Man]

Well, originally, Protestants were dissenting Catholics. They disagreed with certain practices of the CC in the 1500s and separated from the CC. From that schism, several different denominations were born. Today, Protestants don’t know (for the most part) what the protest is about and are the children of those dissenting Catholics. While we are separated we are still a family under Christ. Some denominations over the course of years have completely separated from practices that the Church has done for over 1500 years. Eucharist, Ordination, Baptism, etc. to name a few

I understand the history behind both the protestant movement and the death of christians for their faith throughout the centuries…in fact, I have been and have many friends on the front lines in countries that despise the truth of Christ…and orthodoxy and radicalism are the driving force behind them…although it is a spiritual battle we fight these forces manifest through such vehicles.
I think what constitutes one being a christian should be established** first**…before we go on…otherwise we are off into assumptions and easily off track…from the topic.

Jose what constitues one being a follower of Christ, saved and redeemed from his past sins, forgiven and granted eternal life…your personal answer would be great…using scripture would be most beneficial as well and not quoting the catechisms of the CC and asking me to read the untold pages of church protocol…but your personal convictions and answers from God’s word would suffice.

Secondly…let’s begin discuss Luther and why he reformed…you say he dissented…let’s discuss why he did what he did…seeing if he actually did so against Christ or an established institution set in place by man.

Regards Rob

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Could someone please explain what the CC view is on the trinity ?,
I use the term “trinity” as an inclusive term to denote the godhead and active role of the the father, son and Holy Spirit upon the earth today, but why is this term
so “taboo” amongst CC?

What is the primary difference between the protestant and CC ?
‘Catechism of the Catholic Church’ is to broad and not so user friendly.

CC has not had a pretty history from it’s beginnings to it’s present, but what one thing would constitute it being the one true church that so many CC propagate???.. I hear alot of CC proclaiming this and yet not really hearing alot of protestant churches making this claim, it just seems that it is heralded louder from the CC standpoint…wonder why that is???

I understand the history behind both the protestant movement and the death of christians for their faith throughout the centuries…in fact, I have been and have many friends on the front lines in countries that despise the truth of Christ…and orthodoxy and radicalism are the driving force behind them…although it is a spiritual battle we fight these forces manifest through such vehicles.
I think what constitutes one being a christian should be established** first**…before we go on…otherwise we are off into assumptions and easily off track…from the topic.

Jose what constitues one being a follower of Christ, saved and redeemed from his past sins, forgiven and granted eternal life…your personal answer would be great…using scripture would be most beneficial as well and not quoting the catechisms of the CC and asking me to read the untold pages of church protocol…but your personal convictions and answers from God’s word would suffice.

Secondly…let’s begin discuss Luther and why he reformed…you say he dissented…let’s discuss why he did what he did…seeing if he actually did so against Christ or an established institution set in place by man.

Regards Rob

Rob,

Before we get into a war of words and semantics, you need to address your allegations and answer my questions first. It’s only civil.

Why do you say the Holy Spirit is taboo in the CC?

When you say CC, are you referring to the Catholic Church and all the rites it includes?

Also, you need to explain how exactly the CC did not have a pretty history from its beginnings to the present.

Also, you cannot expect me to answer without the basis and foundation for my Faith:
the Church where I found Christ in.
Also, telling me to not use the Catechism of the Church is already an admission that you are not prepared to discuss against it.

God raised me in His Church. If you want to talk to me you have to talk to the Church founded by Christ through His Apostles, whose teachings have been carried through the centuries. You see, I don’t stand alone creating my own theology and denomination. I am humble enough to understand that a spirit of service and love is what I am called for. “I desire mercy not sacrifice”, says the Lord.

You come here as a guest and make these claims without any support for them. And then I try to provide you with references to help you make a more informed opinion, which you have no interest in reading as you have already expressed. You then repay me by asking me to strip myself of the place where I belong so you can have “at me” on a personal level thinking I will be a more attractive target and weak for your attacks.

Nice try, but I’ll pass. You can release your anger on someone else.

In Him (That means Christ),

Jose

 

[jpelham]

Thank you for your response but not sure if the Catechism you quoted from really shed light on the role of the Holy Spirit, although you alluded to the trinity and explaining it through quoting the Catechism , but not much was mentioned specifically on the Holy Spirit and his role. What is the role of the Holy Spirit to the CC…?.

The Catechism answers this:

““I believe in the Holy Spirit””

It is difficult to know how you could suppose that the Catholic Church slights the importance of the Holy Spirit. See also

the Athanasian Creed

 

[Wretched_Man]

Rob,

Before we get into a war of words and semantics, you need to address your allegations and answer my questions first. It’s only civil.

 

[jpelham]

…using scripture would be most beneficial as well and not quoting the catechisms of the CC and asking me to read the untold pages of church protocol…but your personal convictions and answers from God’s word would suffice…

The Catechism is given to us by precisely the Church that gave us the Bible, as it was prior to Luther’s abridgment. Only together, the living tradition of the Church and her Scriptures, do they constitute God’s Word, the Logos, the Truth Incarnate (see 1 Tim. 3:15).

Note too that if the Church leadership chosen by Christ HImself was sufficiently corrupt to kill Him, we cannot reasonably expect a more virtuous Church in subsequent ages…

I encourage you to address Jose’s concerns. In order for dialogue to occur, we must grasp, or honestly seek to grasp, the essentials of each other’s beliefs.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Ok, I am not uncivil, sorry it appears that way…this is not personal, so forgive me if I made it as an all out assult against your person…I don’t even know you.
But in response to your question…I can’t find the post but one of your own were quoting what protestants belive and one of them was the trinity. It was spoken as if the catechism was against the trintiy, thus i responded with my statement.

Well, you question is directed to the CC not the post, if you direct your questions to the CC you should expect to get a CC answer and not a personal answer.

I suppose the CC is closely related to the rites therein…!!!

Again, your question is directed to the CC. Perhaps if your question is more clearly expressed it would be clearly understood. Why specifically you say that the Holy Spirit is taboo in the CC.

I am not sure if you are privy to the history…but I alluded to it by saying that the catholic church or those govering the church at the time…which I presume was Rome…instituted an all out attack against many who opposed it’s doctrines…let’s just say it started with attacking Moslems…if you want to go deeper into the ccause of this Holy War…we can…

No presumptions, you must be specific in your allegations. The beginning of the CC was not pretty according to you. So during Pentecost things did not start pretty. Why?

My friend …if I were to approach any discussion from the position of being pentecostal and all it stands for, quoting our statement of beliefs and not have the personal conviction and inner witness of the Holy Spirit regarding my faith and some scripture to support what I believe, then my devotion to my denomination is empty. I am associated to the pentecostal belief because I stand and compare everything to the word. If what my denomination says does not line up with the word then it is kicked to the curb.

Again, your question was directed to the CC, not Isaiah45_9. Why would you expect to get a personal answer from a question directed to an institution?

If you believe in Christ, as the sacrifice for your sins, then you become the church and particpate in fellowship with other believers…thats my concern …you speak from the catechism… and you never seem to be allowed to speak your own revelation of the word of God…which states you are to study and show yourself approved as a workman who need not be ashamed …rightly divinding the word of truth…I can never discuss issues with someone, regardles of who they are, who does not first use the word to verify and confirm.their position. If all one does is refer to a set standard of protcols from their church …they have no thought for themselves and are unable to defend their faith. If all I say was what my church says, then I have no revelation of the scriptures myself but only an imposed doctrine that I am expected to believe in and adhere to, I am no longer subject to hear from God as his child…but only those who lord it over me.

You can have all the concerns you want. However, that doesn’t give you the right to put a fence on what I can or cannot say. I don’t need to confirm anything to you or any man. I am not trying to please any man, but I strive to please God who knows the heart (1 Thessalonians 2:4).

If asking you to speak from your heart and share your personal testimony of your relationship with Jesus and your personal reasons why you believe what you believe …supported by scriptures is stripping you…then I am sorry…I am not asking you to leave the catholic faith.

If you want to ask me personally then feel free to use the PM feature on the website. The thread is about Catholics view towards Protestants, not about my personal interpretations. BTW (IMHO), the use of the term Protestant in a general sense is erroneous since every denomination is particular in their doctrinal practices, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, Episcopalians, etc.

My friend…I have no anger what so ever…anger is so far removed from me towaards you or anyone…I can’t explain it…I am free in Christ…do you share this experience…jesus has set me free and it is in him , not a church or a denomination or it;s rites that make me free but him

Then God Bless you!

But I must ask, Why are you here then? Why would you want to say that the Holy Spirit is taboo in the CC? Why do you say that the story for the CC has not been pretty from the beginning to the present?

Do you understand what " in him" means???
Rob

Of course.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

If you believe in Christ, as the sacrifice for your sins, then you become the church and particpate in fellowship with other believers…thats my concern …you speak from the catechism… and you never seem to be allowed to speak your own revelation of the word of God…which states you are to study and show yourself approved as a workman who need not be ashamed …rightly divinding the word of truth…I can never discuss issues with someone, regardles of who they are, who does not first use the word to verify and confirm.their position. If all one does is refer to a set standard of protcols from their church …they have no thought for themselves and are unable to defend their faith. If all I say was what my church says, then I have no revelation of the scriptures myself but only an imposed doctrine that I am expected to believe in and adhere to, I am no longer subject to hear from God as his child…but only those who lord it over me.

Rob,

You see, for me the Word is not confined to a book or a set of books. The Word breathed on the Apostles and gave them the Holy Spirit. The Word is in the eyes of my little boy. The Word is in the memories of my deceased Grandmother. The Word is in the confines of my closet, where I go and humbly ask for forgiveness and pray for help and praise Him. The Word is in motion and the air I breath.

My personal theology must be confined on the deposit of the Faith given by Jesus to the Apostles and from the Apostles to the Fathers. My theological ideas must be accountable to the ongoing authority of the Church, all the men and women that gave their lives to Jesus and received the revelation of the Word of God.

Doctrine is what is believed, taught, and confessed.

I am free in Christ as well Rob. But I am free because He paid my ransom. Christ touched me at the Church and when I walked away from the Church, He brought me back. Like a prodigal son I came back with the tail between my legs… only to be freed again.

I cannot, will not let pride get in my way again. I strive to follow Brother Lawrence’s example and Practice the Presence of God in my everyday life. I fail some days, I gain some days. I am His and I must obey Him.

We can throw verses at each other all day long Rob, but in the end when I go to sleep and I put my face on my pillow I must call on Him and pray the Lord’s Prayer with my heart on my throat, ever grateful.

God Bless you,

Jose

 

[JonNC]

I appreciate that doctrinal diversity even within denominations makes generalizations problematical. I thought that traditional Lutheranism helped set the pattern for the more exclusive claims of salvation. What is the doctrinal stand?

ISTM the pattern was set more by Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.

But seriously, not at all doctrine. That’s not to say that there haven’t been Lutherans historically who believed it. However, the phrase or idea is not in the confessions, other than the implication that believing heterdox positions is certainly dangerous.

Jon