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CMatt25
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For those “good deeds” you win three quart jars of Grace!!!
Just kidding…
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CMatt25
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mardukm
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Please study the Latin Catholic Church’s teaching on in persona Christi.
I’ve heard this criticism coming from Catholics towards Protestants.
I don’t believe you have a very good understanding of the Catholic teaching. Read up on the medieval debate between the Eastern and Western Churches on the epiclesis, and you will see what I mean.
Blessings,
Marduk
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CMatt25
Guest
For those “good deeds” you win three quart jars of Grace!!!
Just kidding…
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Lapey
Guest
Thought you would like that one…it was the first sacastic comment I could think of.
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loneviking
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I may not have the best understanding, but my ears work just fine. When I hear a Catholic bishop talking over and over about the power priests have to heal you physically, spiritually and even to reach into heaven to bring Christ unto the altar–at that point, I’ve heard enough and it was time to leave! I’ve heard similar from other priests in this diocese.
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mark_a
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Ditto. It’s absolutely the finest, best written show of any media.
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schaick
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schaick
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Correction Lutherans don’t follow Luther’s teachings but Bible teachings. Following Luther’s teachings would dishonor all of Luther’s hard work.
Lutherans celebrate the Presence in under and with the Bread and Wine. Yes we believe in the communion of saints.
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Pixie_Dust
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Catholics believe once is enough, too! During the Mass we transcend time and space and make ourselves present at that one time sacrifice 2000 years ago on Calvary, just as the Jews make themselves present at that one time Passover however many thousands of years ago, when the Lord brought them out of slavery in Egypt.
Do Lutherans even call it Mass??? I attended a Lutheran church for 2 years before I became officially Catholic and never heard it called Mass.
The words spoken were very similar, though at the Lutheran church they had it all printed out in the bulletin so if the prayers were worded differently that week (seemed like the confession of sins prayer was one of 3-4 on rotation) everyone had a cheat sheet.The main difference between Catholics and Lutherans is our views on apostolic authority, which isn’t something you’d probably notice on a Sunday morning. Oh, and Lutherans celebrate something other than Halloween on Oct 31st.
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Ridgerunner
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This is anecdotal, of course, and might not be representative of what Lutherans think. The Lutherans present might wish to correct me.
In my discussions with local LCMS people, I get the impression that they don’t quite think of the Communion of Saints in the same way we do. I have been very definitely informed that at least some Lutherans do not believe in “praying to saints”. Nor do they think the universe is quite as “haunted” as Catholics do. It’s difficult to express this, but I have heard Lutherans declare that God, saints and all who died before us are “up there”, and (except for God’s creative presence) have no real immediacy in “our world”. We die, we go to heaven and we’re done with here.
I can’t say that this is true of all Catholics, but Catholics tend to think of the “Communion of Saints” in a more “present” kind of way. Like Faulkner said of the South: “the air is thick with spirits”. My parents (both deceased) are immediately present in my world as well as in their “own”, without there being some kind of gulf between the two. Same with Mother Teresa and St. Paul. The Lutherans I have discussed this with do not feel that way about it.
Nor do Lutherans seem to recognize any significant number of saints. I have had it said to me by Lutherans that it’s pretty much limited to the Apostles, of which they count St. Paul to be one. That’s perhaps why so many Lutheran institutions are named “St. Paul’s”.
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schaick
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LOL!! Thank you- now I can explain to my Catholic friends that thought the Immaculate Conception was about Jesus’ conception that there was just one final sacrifice!!Catholics believe once is enough, too! During the Mass we transcend time and space and make ourselves present at that one time sacrifice 2000 years ago on Calvary, just as the Jews make themselves present at that one time Passover however many thousands of years ago, when the Lord brought them out of slavery in Egypt.
Do Lutherans even call it Mass??? I attended a Lutheran church for 2 years before I became officially Catholic and never heard it called Mass.
The main difference between Catholics and Lutherans is our views on apostolic authority, which isn’t something you’d probably notice on a Sunday morning. Oh, and Lutherans celebrate something other than Halloween on Oct 31st.
I was worried- seemed like my Catholic friends were never letting Jesus get down off the cross!!
No Lutherans don’t call it Mass.
OH yes Lutherans love Reformation Sunday!
Not too quick. Lutherans do call it “Mass”. Not often or regularly, but we recognize that that is what it is.
It is what the Confessions call it, as well.
Jon
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schaick
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No Communion of Saints isn’t praying to the saints but the celebration of our faith with all the Christians no matter where they are.
LOL!! So yes whether you like it or not we are butting in on everyone’s Mass, Church service and joining in with you in that celebration of our Saviour Jesus Christ!! Think of all those voices praising GOD.
Nope all of us can be saints and sinners!
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Pixie_Dust
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The sacrifice of the Mass, the Eucharist, is a “sacrifice of praise” (Hebrews 13:15) and of giving thanks to God for His Son, Jesus. We aren’t re-crucifying Him. It’s startling the number of people, of any faith background, that think the Immaculate Conception refers to Jesus. I’m sure it’s more comfortable for the non-Catholic to believe so.
We, like St Paul, preach Christ crucified. (1 Corinthians 1:23, 2:2; Galatians 3:1)
I didn’t think so.
Our friendly neighborhood Lutherans posted love notes on our church doors a couple of years ago on Reformation Sunday. Not sure if they hit all the Catholic Churches in the area or just ours.
Lutherans and Catholics agree on the once for all sacrifice. We also agree with the Eucharist being a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.=Pixie Dust;6355287]The sacrifice of the Mass, the Eucharist, is a “sacrifice of praise” (Hebrews 13:15) and of giving thanks to God for His Son, Jesus. We aren’t re-crucifying Him. It’s startling the number of people, of any faith background, that think the Immaculate Conception refers to Jesus. I’m sure it’s more comfortable for the non-Catholic to believe so.
So do Lutherans. I treasure my father’s crucifix, which he wore every Sunday over his alb.
I hope it truly was love notes, as we are to love our brothers and sisters in Christ specifically, and all of our fellow man. Anything less than that I would consider I violation of the 1st commandment, and our obligations under the 8th as well.
Jon
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Pixie_Dust
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Lutherans and Catholics have much in common. I was addressing the idea of schaick “explaining” to his/her Catholic friends something that shouldn’t need to be explained.
Again, I was addressing schaick’s “never letting Jesus … off the cross” comment. The Lutheran church I attended had a crucifix on the wall that one of their parishioners made. I know that Lutherans aren’t opposed to the crucifix as violently as other non-Catholic Christians are.
It was kind of tongue-in-cheek, wishing US a Happy Reformation Day.
It was all in good fun. At least, I think it was. My pastor was laughing about it. This was from the same congregation that welcomed my becoming-less-Baptist-by-the-minute self into their midst and showed me what Christian love really looks like. Very different from the judgmental legalism I was used to.
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jessep28
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You do see your fair share of Lutheran churches who do get it and have a crucifix at the alter vs. an empty cross. Some, at least in the LCMS, even practice private Confession and Absolution. I wish my perish did so. Canned corporate confession doesn’t carry the same power as kneeling and confessing your sins individually and receiving absolution.Again, I was addressing schaick’s “never letting Jesus … off the cross” comment. The Lutheran church I attended had a crucifix on the wall that one of their parishioners made. I know that Lutherans aren’t opposed to the crucifix as violently as other non-Catholic Christians are.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Then, Lutherans are not true Lutherans, then; according to Luthers teachings; Here are some quotes from Luther given by a poster crazze in post #82 from the thread “the reformation was based on pride” thread.
“Whoever teaches differently from what I (Luther) have taught herein, or condemns me for it, he condemns God and must be a child of Hell.”
and
“I (Luther) will not allow it to be judged by anybody, not even by any of the Angels. For, since I am certain of it, I intend, by means of it, to be your judge and also, that of the Angles; so whoever does not accept my teaching can-not be saved”.
Paranthesis mine;
All from Luthers own Statements concerning His Teachings and its Results
all statements taken from Luther’s German and Latin works.
So who is one to believe Luther himself, Lutherans or Lutherans of late? that do not follow Lutherans teachngs?
Do you believe in the communion of Saints as taught by the Ex Cathoilc-monk (Priest) Martin Luther, or do you have a different understanding of the 2000 year old Catholic teaching of the Communion of Saints? Being that you do believe Lutherans do not follow Luther. Is this an oxymoron?
The Op metioned his/her understanding of Transubstantiation and the True presence. But you mention something different here. What is the difference between the Lutherans belief in the true presence of today in con-substantiation from the Catholic teaching of Transubstantiation?
Can you explain the difference for our OP please?
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
QUOTE]Gabriel of 12;6351850 said:
In a different sort of way.
Do you think Paul was referencing the Mass and the Sacraments here in the mysteries;Many things that we define and attempt to explain theologically in the Catholic Church are not so well defined in Lutheranism. In my days as a LCMS Lutheran, such things were left as a mystery, although “mystery” seemed to be too Catholic a term to use in our catechism class.
1Corinthian 2: 1 When I came to you, brothers, proclaiming the mystery of God, 1 I did not come with sublimity of words or of wisdom. 4 and my message and my proclamation were not with persuasive (words of) wisdom, 3 but with a demonstration of spirit and power, 5 so that your faith might rest not on human wisdom but on the power of God. 6 Yet we do speak a wisdom to those who are mature, but not a wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age who are passing away. 7 Rather, we speak God’s wisdom, 5 mysterious, hidden, which God predetermined before the ages for our glory, 8 and which none of the rulers of this age 6 knew; for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written: “What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,” 10 this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God. 11 Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except the spirit of the person that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. 7 14 Now the natural person 8 does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. 15 The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment 9 by anyone. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 4: 1 Thus should one regard us: as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Now it is of course required of stewards that they be found trustworthy.
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