Catholic vs Lutheran Nicene Creed

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This past Sunday I attended a LC-MS service shortly after attending Catholic Mass. I’ve been to Lutheran services before, but this was just way out there. The order of the service was completely different and the Nicene Creed, although it had the same main points was worded differently. Why the difference in the Creed? Shouldn’t they be identical if they are the same? 🤷
 
I don’t know why there would be a difference, but there are some very knowledgeable Lutherans who post here from time to time, and they will no doubt be able to shed some light on this. Perhaps it is a simple matter of translation?
 
This past Sunday I attended a LC-MS service shortly after attending Catholic Mass. I’ve been to Lutheran services before, but this was just way out there. The order of the service was completely different and the Nicene Creed, although it had the same main points was worded differently. Why the difference in the Creed? Shouldn’t they be identical if they are the same? 🤷
I’m ELCA in Sioux City, not LCMS, so I can’t be sure about differences you noticed because I’m not sure how the LCMS version is translated. About the only difference I’ve noted when attending a Catholic mass is that the word “men” is included in one place - “for us men and for our salvation” as opposed to “for us and for our salvation.” Otherwise it is essentially word-for-word the same.

I think the Catholic Church would agree that there are different ways of translating words in the Creed which are okay, just as there are different ways of translating words in the Bible - as the long as the “main points” and underlying meaning is not changed, of course. If I understand correctly, you’re going to see a big change this Advent in the Catholic Church’s translation of the Creed, which doesn’t mean that the current Creed used is bad; its just that a different methodology of translation is going to be adopted (more of a literal translation of the Latin, I think).
 
It due to a difference in interpretation.

Catholics in England also have a different version of the Nicence Creed because the American translation is a poor one from 1973 which was corrected in 1975 but the US Bishops did not update it and continued to use the 1973 translation.

1973 draft ICET text

While work by the International Consultation on English Texts (ICET) was still in progress, the Roman Catholic Church in the United States published its English version of the Roman Missal, incorporating for the Nicene Creed the ICET draft as it stood in 1973. This version remains in use in the United States until late November 2011, but in other countries the Roman Catholic Church uses (again until 26 November 2011) ICET’s slightly later definitive text, published in 1975.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

In 1975, ICET published, in the book Prayers We Have in Common, an ecumenical English translation of the Nicene Creed that was adopted by many Churches, including the Roman Catholic Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church. Following is the text of this 1975 version as printed in the English-language Roman Missal used outside the United States. The only difference between this presentation and the way ICET presented the text is that ICET printed the Filioque clause as a parenthesis, thus: “[and the Son]”.
Code:
We believe in one God,

    the Father, the Almighty
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father.
    Through him all things were made.
    For us men and for our salvation

        he came down from heaven:

    by the power of the Holy Spirit

        he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

        he suffered death and was buried.

    On the third day he rose again

        in accordance with the Scriptures;

    he ascended into heaven

        and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

        and his kingdom will have no end

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,

    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,

        and the life of the world to come. Amen.
The main differences are as follows:

“Of one Being with the Father” (1975) replaced “one in Being with the Father” (1973), which, when spoken, could be confused with “one, in being with the Father”.

“He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man” (1975) replaced “He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man” (1973): neither Greek “σαρκωθέντα” nor Latin “incarnatus” means “born”, and the 1973 text linked hominization (“became man”) with birth (“he was born”).

“He suffered death and was buried” (1975) replaced “he suffered, died, and was buried” (1973): “παθόντα” in Greek and “passus” in Latin are indicative of a suffering demise; but the 1973 draft inserted an extra verb, “died”, not present in the original Greek or Latin.

This is just one of the many reasons why we needed the corrected translation of the Mass due to go into use later this year.
 
I’m ELCA in Sioux City, not LCMS,
I think the Catholic Church would agree that there are different ways of translating words in the Creed which are okay, just as there are different ways of translating words in the Bible - as the long as the “main points” and underlying meaning is not changed, of course. If I understand correctly, you’re going to see a big change this Advent in the Catholic Church’s translation of the Creed, which doesn’t mean that the current Creed used is bad; its just that a different methodology of translation is going to be adopted (more of a literal translation of the Latin, I think).
Correct…it is a more faithful translation from the original. In the haste to translate as a result of Vatican II, the translations were not well done. Pope Benedict XVI wanted to adhere to the original as close as possible. Even the prayers said in Mass will follow his edict. Our parish started using the new prayers, ahead of advent. Our priest, before starting, would state that he is following the new form, so it will be a little different on the missals.
 
Thanks Brendan for the info. This version is different from both of those translations. It may just be a difference in translation. But from some of the changes (catholic to Christian) that some of the changes aren’t due to translation and were purposeful.

Here is the LC-MS Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried. And the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures and ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. And He will come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead, whose kingdom will have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, and I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
 
Thanks Brendan for the info. This version is different from both of those translations. It may just be a difference in translation. But from some of the changes (catholic to Christian) that some of the changes aren’t due to translation and were purposeful.

Here is the LC-MS Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried. And the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures and ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. And He will come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead, whose kingdom will have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, and I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
The change from “catholic” to “Christian” is unnecessary, though I don’t think wholly inaccurate. That said, it is traditional in American Lutheranism. I was raised LCA, and this ways the wording in the Service Book and Hymnal. Personally, I perfer “one holy catholic…”.

Jon
 
The change from “catholic” to “Christian” is unnecessary, though I don’t think wholly inaccurate. That said, it is traditional in American Lutheranism. I was raised LCA, and this ways the wording in the Service Book and Hymnal. Personally, I perfer “one holy catholic…”.

Jon
Beginning with 1978’s Lutheran Book of Worship, the churches that later formed the ELCA finally corrected the situation so we profess a faith in the “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.”
 
Thanks Brendan for the info. This version is different from both of those translations. It may just be a difference in translation. But from some of the changes (catholic to Christian) that some of the changes aren’t due to translation and were purposeful.

Here is the LC-MS Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried. And the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures and ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. And He will come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead, whose kingdom will have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, and I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
The LC-MS in it’s translation of the Apostles and Nicene uses the German translation of the Greek word for Catholic which turns out as Christian.
Because of the pietist influences that infiltrated the Lutheran Church and because of the Calvinist calling Lutheran liturgical practices too Catholic, some in the Lutheran Church had an aversion to being too Catholic. When I say the Creeds, I always use Catholic instead of Christian.:signofcross:
 
Correct…it is a more faithful translation from the original. In the haste to translate as a result of Vatican II, the translations were not well done. Pope Benedict XVI wanted to adhere to the original as close as possible. Even the prayers said in Mass will follow his edict. Our parish started using the new prayers, ahead of advent. Our priest, before starting, would state that he is following the new form, so it will be a little different on the missals.
The 1970’s were not the first time anyone thought to translate the Nicene Creed into English, we had a perfectly good translation of the Nicene creed into English in the missals used by the faithful well before Vatican II, the poor translation had nothing to do with haste. More likely the translators simply made the mistake of trying to oversimplify the texts without giving due regard for the fact that they were losing much of the meaning in doing so.
 
I find this all so very fascinating. 🍿

For my part, I’m inclined to believe in differences in translation. After all, we have many translations of the Bible, as somebody noted. I find it interesting that I don’t see the form used at my church listed, so I’ll pitch in with it below. Why the differences? 🤷 I’ll have to ask the pastor on Sunday next.

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is,
seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation, he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and became fully human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate.
He suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds fro the Father and the Son,
who in unity with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
 
Beginning with 1978’s Lutheran Book of Worship, the churches that later formed the ELCA finally corrected the situation so we profess a faith in the “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.”
Yes, Jay, I neglected to mention that. Thanks for the correction. 👍
Jon
 
When I was in the ELCA the 1978 hymnal started to use Catholic instead of Christian in the Creeds before that hymnal it was Christian. When I went to the LC-MS, I was surprised that they still used Christian. But it is a small price to pay to get away from open Communion, women and homosexual ordination.:highprayer:
 
When I was in the ELCA the 1978 hymnal started to use Catholic instead of Christian in the Creeds before that hymnal it was Christian. When I went to the LC-MS, I was surprised that they still used Christian. But it is a small price to pay to get away from open Communion, women and homosexual ordination.:highprayer:
Agreed, and political liberalism disguised as Church teaching.

Jon
 
Correct…it is a more faithful translation from the original. In the haste to translate as a result of Vatican II, the translations were not well done. Pope Benedict XVI wanted to adhere to the original as close as possible. Even the prayers said in Mass will follow his edict. Our parish started using the new prayers, ahead of advent. Our priest, before starting, would state that he is following the new form, so it will be a little different on the missals.
Actually, it’s a more faithful translation of the Latin translation of the Creed, but the Creed was originally composed in Greek.
 
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