Since it will not be overpowered by evil, splitting from the catholic church seems unbiblical
Oddly enough, they haven’t so far. Indeed, the people who actually saw them were willing to be persecuted by the Romans for their beliefs
I look forward to the Orthodox perspective which I think might be slightly different
We would obviously say different. Orthodox Christians would say we are the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that the Church started in AD 33 We would also say that Roman Catholicism did not exist until 1054 (and has changed greatly since then). We believe that Rome was once a part of the Church, but chose to go off on its own way.
You are wise before your years, Andrew.Well, the fact of the matter is, is that the question is being posed by a “super atheist” so I’m not sure what his objective would be (is he planning to convert, I don’t think so)?
No, I’m not about to convert, I was just curious to read the different sides, since both adamently maintain that they are correct, so I wanted to see why.
If you’re curious then read a book about it.
My, my, you really dislike Atheists, don’t you?
Yeah just do “Orthodox vs. Catholic” or something like that. I do it all the time, there are MANY threads on the subject.D’oh! Never even thought if that!
Thanks dude!
Hi Bear Claw,
Hi Bear Claw,
Personally, I find it very interesting that you are interested in such a matter.
For someone today, outside of Christianity, looking at Christianity can be bizzare considering the state of things. It would appear that there are tons of people claiming Christianity, but not in agreement with one another.
Currently, there are 3 Types of Christianity in the world today: Catholic, Orthodox & Protestant. There are a handful of divisions among the Orthodox (Coptic vs. Oriental vs. Orthodox vs. Old Calendar) and thousands of divisions among the Protestants (Baptist, Evangelical, Lutheran, Anglican, Non-Denominational, 7th Day Adventists, etc.). Although there are various Rites within the Catholic Church, I think about 12, there is complete unity within the Catholic Church. This makes the Catholic Church stand out a bit from the crowds within Christianity. The Pope is the unifying figure among all Rites of the Catholic Church.
Your question though is between 2 of the 3 Types: Catholic & Orthodox.
Both Churches claim their Church was started by Jesus in 29 or 33 ad or there abouts. Both claim Apostolic Succession. In both of these claims, they are correct. Originally all the current Orthodox Patriarchs as successors of the Apostles in full communion with the Pope of the Church of Rome.
In 1054ad the two Churches officially split from one another with mutual ex-communications, the Coptic/Oriental Orthodox had split off earlier. This was due to language barriers, which made discussing the Faith difficult because the translations weren’t always the best and misunderstandings arose on both sides. It was also due to Political situations in the East vs. the West. Lastly, and I would propose based on my studies that this was soley due to the language barriers of the time, there were doctrinal differences. For example, Orthodox pray for the dead and believe in God’s Mercy, but they do not believe in what Catholics have named Purgatory because at the Council of Florence, they thought that the Romans were speaking of a 2nd “Temporary” Fire when speaking of Purgatory, but they knew that God is Fire and that there is only 1 Eternal Fire - due to bad translators/translations they did not understand that it is the soul that experiences the “purifying” affects of that 1 Eternal Fire temporarily as once that soul is completely purified, the affects to that soul of the same 1 Eternal Fire is Illumination/Deification. The mutual ex-communications of the Greek Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church were mutually lifted in the 1960s.
After the split, the Church which remained intact was the Catholic Church which has no divisions among its members as it has the Pope as the unifying force among Catholic Patriarchs and Bishops. The Orthodox Church, as mentioned before has divisions among its members with some Patriarchs united, but not all, and whose who are united within the Orthodox Church has changed several times through out the centuries.
It is the Catholic Church which over time has maintained the Fullness of Faith; however, that being said, the Catholic Church is clear in that the Orthodox Churches continue to maintain valid Sacraments/Mysteries: Baptism, Chrismation/Confirmation, Holy Orders, Holy Eucharist, Marriage, Annointing of the Sick/Last Rites.
As an Atheist, should you decide to become a Christian you would do well to become Baptized into a Protestant Christian Church as most Protestant Churches do provide valid Baptisms and with a valid Baptism you can become a true Christian.
You would do better to become an Orthodox Christian as in addition to a valid Baptism, you would also be able to receive the God of the Universe in the Holy Eucharist and other Sacraments/Mysteries.
Yet you would do even better to become a Catholic, because you would receive all of those Sacraments as well as have the assurance that when you are taught, you are taught from the Fullness of Faith with nothing left out being led by the Pope who has been promised to us by Christ to never error in matters of faith and doctrine.
It’s not that I dislike atheists but I do question your motives, are you being sincere (this is not an attempt on your part to see Christians bicker)?
Yes all Orthodox and Catholics are Christians. They have been Baptized in the “Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”. This is what makes someone a Christian.
. So I’m going to try to type everything back up. First, using quotes from the early church fathers to prove that either the Catholics or Orthodox are right NEVER WORKS. Both sides will find quotes that work for them but they won’t tell you what the context was so you’ll never know (unless you look it up for yourself which takes forever) what the quote really means. They may post where the quote was from and use the quote to their advantage making it seem like they know what they’re talking about, but they most likely just copied and pasted it from a website and don’t know the context themselves. But even if they tell you where the quote’s from, it still doesn’t answer the question as to what the context (which includes the historical background) is. I’ve seen Orthodox and Catholics do this at various places and I have never seen the question as to which Church is right answered and finalized by someone quoting an early church father. It just never happens. All that happens is another person takes a different quote from an early church father (sometimes the same father) to try counterquote the previous quote.Her example of “Coptic vs. Oriental vs. Orthodox vs. Old Calendar” does not make sense. Coptic vs. Oriental doesn’t make sense because the Coptic Orthodox church is in the Oriental/Non-Chalcedon Orthodox Church. That’s like saying the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic church vs. the Catholic Church. The Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic church is within the Catholic Church and is one of the rites of the Catholic Church (and yes, the other rites/churches of the Catholic Church can and are called churches or rites interchangeably). Also, the Oriental vs. Orthodox doesn’t make sense because she’s implying that two Churches are somehow connected just because both Churches use the word “Orthodox” in their names. There is the Oriental/Non-Chalcedon Orthodox Church and the Eastern/Greek Orthodox Church. These are two distinct different churches. That’s like saying theres divisions within Catholicism and using for example the latin rite Catholics vs. the Southern Baptists. Southern Baptists aren’t within the Catholic Church so this doesn’t make sense. The Oriental Orthodox Church is not within the Eastern Orthodox Church or the other way around (although our Churches have more in common than Catholics do to Southern Baptists). She also uses for example “Orthodox vs. Old Calendar” as a division within the Orthodox. Old Calendarists are breakaway groups that broke from the Eastern Orthodox Church when the calendars were modified (like how the Old Catholics broke away from the Catholic Church because they didn’t believe that the Second Vatican Counsel was right). That’s like me saying the Catholics are divided because you have the Roman Catholic Church vs. the Gnostic Catholic Church vs. the Polish National Catholic Church vs. the Old Catholic Church vs. the Liberal Catholic Church etc. These groups aren’t in communion with the Pope and aren’t a part of the real Catholic Church. Old Calendarists aren’t a part of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
D) I’m not doing anything with an angry avengeful heart. I’m just trying to clear some things up that you typed that I believe to be wrong. And also, confusing the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox is common. I wasn’t sure if you really knew the difference because you mentioned the Oriental Orthodox in your post but then you did the whole “Oriental vs. Orthodox” thing where I wasn’t sure if you really understood that we are two different distinct Churches. When most people in America who aren’t Oriental Orthodox use the term “Orthodox”, they most of the time mean the Eastern Orthodox Church. Just like Roman Catholics most of the time just call themselves “Catholics” (and some don’t like the term Roman), Eastern/Greek Orthodox use the term “Orthodox” (although some don’t like the terms “Greek” or “Eastern”), and Oriental/Non-Chalcedon most of the time just call themselves “Orthodox”, we just use these terms “Roman”, “Eastern”, “Oriental” etc. to make sure that people are on the same page and know which Church we’re talking about.I believe that the Latin Catholic church shares a common origin with Holy Orthodoxy, at Pentecost. Thus, there is no “first”.