Catholic vs. Orthodox who's right, who was first and why?

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I second brother Hesychios’ statement.

The question “who was first” is not relevant because all apostolic Christian Churches were there in the beginning.

Blessings
 
I’ll have to agree with Andrew - it’s less about who was first and more “who left.” And the jury is still out on that question. The Protestant Reformation was more grievous still.

I suspect Peter and Pope Leo IX and Cerularius and Martin Luther are all having a tankard of ale and living it up in heavenly places. And hoping that we will all “get it” one day.

Pax vobiscum.
 
I believe that the Latin Catholic church shares a common origin with Holy Orthodoxy, at Pentecost. Thus, there is no “first”.

As Gottle of Geer correctly implies, the non-Chalcedonians would likely also be represented in the Pentecost event.

This can not be about who was first, it has to be about divergence from the Apostolic Truth once handed along to us through (not from) the Apostles.

Any intelligent, sincere questioner who can study this with an impartial perspective can reach some conclusions, one does not need to actually have vested interest in the outcome to determine which tradition (of the three) has diverged the most. There is a lot of independent scholarship out there available for study which even agnostics and committed atheists can research.

So I think that your question is a fair one.
Do not sweep the issue under the rug. If you don’t want to face it, than don’t face it. But do not say “It dosen’t matter” because the truth always matter.

At Pentecost, every Christian was present, just as at Mount Siana every Jew was present. But you can’t use Pentecost as an excuse to say, “It dosen’t matter which Church is true, we are all brethern.” It is a work of mercy to instruct the ignorant, and we are charged by Christ to spread the Gospel; to than sweep the Church under the rug is to mock Christ and leave those who seek the city set atop a hill (mother Jerusalem, the Church of Christ) in the darkness.

By saying it is not about who is first but who left the Faith is another way of just repeating the same question: “Who came first? Who is the true Church?” There are many co-ops to this question, but they are all forms of “It don’t matter” and “I don’t care” and “I don’t know.” These cop-ops are not what those who seek the truth are after, and they only hinder them from finding the truth. Give them, instead, a reason to seek out the truth and help them along their journey. They hunger for the Church; give them the bowl of history. They thirst for Christ; give them the spoon of Scripture. They desire the truth; lend them the Church Fathers. These three sources are what will satisfy the hunger and thirsty in regards to seeking out the true Church. And be sure to pray for the graces they need: faith, conversion, prudence, justice, preserverance, humility, charity, patience, kindness, etc.

Since the split in the Church happened at the Great Schism, I provided the Bull. Since the Orthodox regard the Pope’s authority as the major catalysis for why the Catholic Church left the Faith, I provided Scripture and the Church Fathers to prove otherwise. And since the Catholic Church alone is the Catholic Church, not only by nature but also by name, I provided the Church Fathers who mention the Catholic Church by name. All this I have done by God’s grace for the satisfaction of the OP and those who seek the truth; I pray that you may do the same.
 
Do not sweep the issue under the rug. If you don’t want to face it, than don’t face it. But do not say “It dosen’t matter” because the truth always matter.

At Pentecost, every Christian was present, just as at Mount Siana every Jew was present. But you can’t use Pentecost as an excuse to say, “It dosen’t matter which Church is true, we are all brethern.” It is a work of mercy to instruct the ignorant, and we are charged by Christ to spread the Gospel; to than sweep the Church under the rug is to mock Christ and leave those who seek the city set atop a hill (mother Jerusalem, the Church of Christ) in the darkness.

By saying it is not about who is first but who left the Faith is another way of just repeating the same question: “Who came first? Who is the true Church?” There are many co-ops to this question, but they are all forms of “It don’t matter” and “I don’t care” and “I don’t know.” These cop-ops are not what those who seek the truth are after, and they only hinder them from finding the truth. Give them, instead, a reason to seek out the truth and help them along their journey. They hunger for the Church; give them the bowl of history. They thirst for Christ; give them the spoon of Scripture. They desire the truth; lend them the Church Fathers. These three sources are what will satisfy the hunger and thirsty in regards to seeking out the true Church. And be sure to pray for the graces they need: faith, conversion, prudence, justice, preserverance, humility, charity, patience, kindness, etc.

Since the split in the Church happened at the Great Schism, I provided the Bull. Since the Orthodox regard the Pope’s authority as the major catalysis for why the Catholic Church left the Faith, I provided Scripture and the Church Fathers to prove otherwise. And since the Catholic Church alone is the Catholic Church, not only by nature but also by name, I provided the Church Fathers who mention the Catholic Church by name. All this I have done by God’s grace for the satisfaction of the OP and those who seek the truth; I pray that you may do the same.
Oh boy. :rolleyes:

Look, no one is looking for a fight. Michael, like many other Orthodox on CAF are not here to pick a fight. Let’s not get antagonistic. He is a very, very intelligent man and from what I have witnessed of him here on CAF, a profoundly humble and spiritual man as well. So before you go making crazy accusations about his motives, please stop and think.

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Do not sweep the issue under the rug. If you don’t want to face it, than don’t face it. But do not say “It dosen’t matter” because the truth always matter.

At Pentecost, every Christian was present, just as at Mount Siana every Jew was present. But you can’t use Pentecost as an excuse to say, “It dosen’t matter which Church is true, we are all brethern.” It is a work of mercy to instruct the ignorant, and we are charged by Christ to spread the Gospel; to than sweep the Church under the rug is to mock Christ and leave those who seek the city set atop a hill (mother Jerusalem, the Church of Christ) in the darkness.

By saying it is not about who is first but who left the Faith is another way of just repeating the same question: “Who came first? Who is the true Church?” There are many co-ops to this question, but they are all forms of “It don’t matter” and “I don’t care” and “I don’t know.” These cop-ops are not what those who seek the truth are after, and they only hinder them from finding the truth. Give them, instead, a reason to seek out the truth and help them along their journey. They hunger for the Church; give them the bowl of history. They thirst for Christ; give them the spoon of Scripture. They desire the truth; lend them the Church Fathers. These three sources are what will satisfy the hunger and thirsty in regards to seeking out the true Church. And be sure to pray for the graces they need: faith, conversion, prudence, justice, preserverance, humility, charity, patience, kindness, etc.

Since the split in the Church happened at the Great Schism, I provided the Bull. Since the Orthodox regard the Pope’s authority as the major catalysis for why the Catholic Church left the Faith, I provided Scripture and the Church Fathers to prove otherwise. And since the Catholic Church alone is the Catholic Church, not only by nature but also by name, I provided the Church Fathers who mention the Catholic Church by name. All this I have done by God’s grace for the satisfaction of the OP and those who seek the truth; I pray that you may do the same.
With apologies to Mel Brooks, “It’s good to be the king… even if you might not be.” 😃
 
the Catholic Church was there first, because of the Pope 😉

for more information:
davidmacd.com/catholic/pope_peter_rock.htm
catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

Christ gave the keys of the Kingdom to Peter… and He used the same words as found in Isaiah 22, when the keys were given by a king to a “prime minister”, who had successors.
catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp
At the risk of getting off-topic, I would be interested in any Hahn articles you know of that discuss Eastern Orthodoxy.
 
This can not be about who was first, it has to be about divergence from the Apostolic Truth once handed along to us through (not from) the Apostles.
I’ll have to agree with Andrew - it’s less about who was first and more “who left.”
Hesychios and O.S. Luke, aren’t those two questions really two sides of the same coin? We Catholics believe that the Orthodox broke away from us, which means that the “Eastern Orthodox Church” didn’t exist until 1054; whereas the Orthodox claim that we broke away from them, which would mean that the “Roman Catholic Church” didn’t exist until 1054.
The question “who was first” is not relevant because all apostolic Christian Churches were there in the beginning.
Opinion noted, but I for one cannot agree that that isn’t relevant.
 
"From the Catholic perspective, one is tempted to say that the only thing lacking for full communion with the Orthodox is full communion. If there are doctrinal differences, they are few, and one can see the way not around them but through them. To be sure, there are understandable anxieties about the relationship between primacy and “jurisdiction.” Vatican II, and the statements of John Paul and Benedict, make clear that the pope governs as a bishop among bishops, not as an emperor or king. In statements on reconciliation with the East, there is no suggestion that papal jurisdiction as it is exercised in the West is a condition for full communion. In these and other matters, it is suggested that such ecclesial reconciliation would in some ways resemble the “undivided Church” of the first millennium rather than the Catholic Church of the second *millennium.

There is, of course, the question of the ecumenical councils that the Orthodox do not recognize as being ecumenical. One remembers, however, that the West did not view Constantinople I (381) or Nicea II (787) as being ecumenical, and for understandable reasons. But they were subsequently approved by Rome and became, so to speak, ecumenical after the fact. Dulles writes: “The dogmatic decrees of the Western ecumenical councils purport to declare truths that should be accepted by all Christians on the basis of divine revelation. But unless or until these councils have been received in the East (as re-read in the light of Oriental tradition), their decrees cannot be binding on Orthodox believers. Full communion, as I understand it, will require the acceptance by both Catholics and Orthodox of all the dogmas that are held by the other community to be matters of faith.”

Here, too, one can agree with Orthodox theologian Fr. John Erickson who has written that, in order to reach unity, we cannot simply return to the “undivided Church of the first millennium.” Neither Catholics nor Orthodox could live with an agreement that simply ignored the developments of the last thousand years. This does not mean that it is necessary to agree on all these developments. The definition of infallibility by Vatican Council I, for instance, is a major obstacle. Clement writes that Orthodox and Catholics must “proceed to a common reflection on decisions made in the centuries of division, and especially on a re-examination of the dogma of 1870, already partially balanced by Vatican II.”

It does seem possible that we could agree on revealed doctrine while, as Cardinal Dulles suggests, “allowing certain secondary questions to stand as matters for theological discussion.” Already, for instance, there would seem to be no essential dogmatic disagreement on the procession of the Holy Spirit as that is presented by the filioque question. And it seems possible that the Orthodox could agree on the Bishop of Rome as the successor of Peter with a primacy of teaching and ruling authority along the lines suggested by Ut Unum Sint. This assumes that there would be accommodations and differences with respect to how that authority is exercised in the East and the West, and, quite *likely, different ecclesiological opinions that would be in the realm of theological discussion and would pose no obstacle to full communion."

firstthings.com/article/2008/11/002-reconciling-east-and-west-14

This article is from the late Catholic Father Richard John Neuhaus, former editor of First Things on Reconciling East and West.
 
Hi Peter,
Hesychios and O.S. Luke, aren’t those two questions really two sides of the same coin? We Catholics believe that the Orthodox broke away from us, which means that the “Eastern Orthodox Church” didn’t exist until 1054; whereas the Orthodox claim that we broke away from them, which would mean that the “Roman Catholic Church” didn’t exist until 1054.

Opinion noted, but I for one cannot agree that that isn’t relevant.
I am going to spin off on a tangent here, and try to explain my thinking.

If you note the Great Western Schism, both (and then all three) “churches” had to sit down and recognize that they were all brothers, that they were all of one faith, that all of their bishops… even Cardinals were valid, that their sacraments were efficacious, that they shared a common origin and a common future. It did not matter that they were all schismatics, they could at least recognize each other as all Catholic and reaffirm one another’s worth (if they did not, no resolution of that horrible tragedy would have been forthcoming).

If I am not speaking to my brother after all these years, even if I disowned him and even if he changed his name there is no way I can pretend that we were not born of the same mother, or that he did not go to school with me, or that he was not present on that swell vacation to you-name-it-here].

It would be easy for me to disown the Latin Catholic church as a schismatic novelty, a new thing, an invention beginning in 1054AD by western Orthodox gone wild. But I chose the high road, and (I think) the right road by acknowledging that we have a common origin and that both of our churches are continuations of what went before, even if one or both “suffer from defects”.

If we cannot do this today, what hope of reconciliation tomorrow?
 
Hi Peter, I am going to spin off on a tangent here, and try to explain my thinking.

If you note the Great Western Schism, both (and then all three) “churches” had to sit down and recognize that they were all brothers, that they were all of one faith, that all of their bishops… even Cardinals were valid, that their sacraments were efficacious, that they shared a common origin and a common future. It did not matter that they were all schismatics, they could at least recognize each other as all Catholic and reaffirm one another’s worth (if they did not, no resolution of that horrible tragedy would have been forthcoming).

If I am not speaking to my brother after all these years, even if I disowned him and even if he changed his name there is no way I can pretend that we were not born of the same mother, or that he did not go to school with me, or that he was not present on that swell vacation to you-name-it-here].

It would be easy for me to disown the Latin Catholic church as a schismatic novelty, a new thing, an invention beginning in 1054AD by western Orthodox gone wild. But I chose the high road, and (I think) the right road by acknowledging that we have a common origin and that both of our churches are continuations of what went before, even if one or both “suffer from defects”.

If we cannot do this today, what hope of reconciliation tomorrow?
What a superb post!!👍
 
What a superb post!!👍
I agree, and further note that the “high road” described is the road adopted by the Catholic Church in its outreach to the Orthodox. Sadly, this position is not reciprocated.

I am less enthusiastic, however, about this earlier post.
This can not be about who was first, it has to be about divergence from the Apostolic Truth once handed along to us through (not from) the Apostles.
Any intelligent, sincere questioner who can study this with an impartial perspective can reach some conclusions …
Yes anyone can reach conclusions, but it takes more skill, training, and exercise to reach sound ones, and tremendous humility to properly recognize the limits that one has in trying to reach them.

An even larger problem exists with the the remark about what it “has to be about”. No foundation is given for this dictum (is it impartial, sincere, intelligent?), nor is any reference point given from which to measure divergence.

Here’s one possibility, involving a scriptural criterion: which church has adhered best to (or diverged least from) the Great Commission? Vladimir Soloviev has some nice thoughts on this point. stmichaelruscath.org/spiritual/soloviev/nicholas-cassian.php
 
Hi Peter, I am going to spin off on a tangent here, and try to explain my thinking.

If you note the Great Western Schism, both (and then all three) “churches” had to sit down and recognize that they were all brothers, that they were all of one faith, that all of their bishops… even Cardinals were valid, that their sacraments were efficacious, that they shared a common origin and a common future. It did not matter that they were all schismatics, they could at least recognize each other as all Catholic and reaffirm one another’s worth (if they did not, no resolution of that horrible tragedy would have been forthcoming).

If I am not speaking to my brother after all these years, even if I disowned him and even if he changed his name there is no way I can pretend that we were not born of the same mother, or that he did not go to school with me, or that he was not present on that swell vacation to you-name-it-here].

It would be easy for me to disown the Latin Catholic church as a schismatic novelty, a new thing, an invention beginning in 1054AD by western Orthodox gone wild. But I chose the high road, and (I think) the right road by acknowledging that we have a common origin and that both of our churches are continuations of what went before, even if one or both “suffer from defects”.

If we cannot do this today, what hope of reconciliation tomorrow?
Spot on, Andrew.
 
Hey y’all.

I’ve heard a lot of different views and statements from both sides seem to hold to certain truths so I thought I’d ask the question.

Catholic vs. Orthodox.

Who is right, who was first and why do you say so?

Thanks!
This made me smile. I have friends who are atheists and they make for wonderful jousting partners. Glad you’re here. The funny thing about this question is that the answer would be irrelevant to an atheist. Stirring up heartburn and discontent when one clearly doesn’t have a dog in the race is a little weird.

Baiting Christians in order to watch them bloody each other is not polite philosophical discourse. 😉
 
This made me smile. I have friends who are atheists and they make for wonderful jousting partners. Glad you’re here. The funny thing about this question is that the answer would be irrelevant to an atheist. Stirring up heartburn and discontent when one clearly doesn’t have a dog in the race is a little weird.

Baiting Christians in order to watch them bloody each other is not polite philosophical discourse. 😉
👍
 
"From the Catholic perspective, one is tempted to say that the only thing lacking for full communion with the Orthodox is full communion. If there are doctrinal differences, they are few, and one can see the way not around them but through them. To be sure, there are understandable anxieties about the relationship between primacy and “jurisdiction.” Vatican II, and the statements of John Paul and Benedict, make clear that the pope governs as a bishop among bishops, not as an emperor or king. In statements on reconciliation with the East, there is no suggestion that papal jurisdiction as it is exercised in the West is a condition for full communion. In these and other matters, it is suggested that such ecclesial reconciliation would in some ways resemble the “undivided Church” of the first millennium rather than the Catholic Church of the second *millennium.

There is, of course, the question of the ecumenical councils that the Orthodox do not recognize as being ecumenical. One remembers, however, that the West did not view Constantinople I (381) or Nicea II (787) as being ecumenical, and for understandable reasons. But they were subsequently approved by Rome and became, so to speak, ecumenical after the fact. Dulles writes: “The dogmatic decrees of the Western ecumenical councils purport to declare truths that should be accepted by all Christians on the basis of divine revelation. But unless or until these councils have been received in the East (as re-read in the light of Oriental tradition), their decrees cannot be binding on Orthodox believers. Full communion, as I understand it, will require the acceptance by both Catholics and Orthodox of all the dogmas that are held by the other community to be matters of faith.”

Here, too, one can agree with Orthodox theologian Fr. John Erickson who has written that, in order to reach unity, we cannot simply return to the “undivided Church of the first millennium.” Neither Catholics nor Orthodox could live with an agreement that simply ignored the developments of the last thousand years. This does not mean that it is necessary to agree on all these developments. The definition of infallibility by Vatican Council I, for instance, is a major obstacle. Clement writes that Orthodox and Catholics must “proceed to a common reflection on decisions made in the centuries of division, and especially on a re-examination of the dogma of 1870, already partially balanced by Vatican II.”

It does seem possible that we could agree on revealed doctrine while, as Cardinal Dulles suggests, “allowing certain secondary questions to stand as matters for theological discussion.” Already, for instance, there would seem to be no essential dogmatic disagreement on the procession of the Holy Spirit as that is presented by the filioque question. And it seems possible that the Orthodox could agree on the Bishop of Rome as the successor of Peter with a primacy of teaching and ruling authority along the lines suggested by Ut Unum Sint. This assumes that there would be accommodations and differences with respect to how that authority is exercised in the East and the West, and, quite *likely, different ecclesiological opinions that would be in the realm of theological discussion and would pose no obstacle to full communion."

firstthings.com/article/2008/11/002-reconciling-east-and-west-14

This article is from the late Catholic Father Richard John Neuhaus, former editor of First Things on Reconciling East and West.
I think this pairs well with Hesychios’s plea. It shows that the foundation is there and just needs to be built on by both parties. I recall seeing various bits of hopeful news on reconciliation in the past several years, including Orthodox patriarchs affirming (again) a “primacy” role for the successor of Peter, and the Catholic Church reaffirming the validity and acceptability of pretty much all Orthodox practice.

I, too, would agree that we should be careful to recognize and speak in terms of the Catholic and Orthodox being one and the same until 1054. Neither started “first.” They were different sees and different, cultural expressions of the One True Faith, and still are. The Schism was more a tragic conflict between brothers than anything else, and it has always seemed to me that the primary reasons for continued disunity are political, not spiritual.

What a witness it will be when Catholic and Orthodox reunite! The Orthodox Catholic Church will consist of some 1.5 billion souls who will be less burdened by quarrels; the West will be reinvigorated by the deep spirituality of the East, and the East will be spurred onward by the philosophy and evangelization of the West so that both can join in a glorious new Mission to the world.
 
catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp

Is the Orthodox position that the other bishops also possess the keys? We know that Cyprian of Carthage viewed all the bishops of the church possessing the “Chair of Peter”. That seems to be a key point in Dr. Hahn’s presentation - Peter and his successors possess the keys. Note, the Orthodox perspective on the Matthew text appears to be closer to Cyprian than to Augustine (who is often quoted by Protestants).
 
catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp

Is the Orthodox position that the other bishops also possess the keys? We know that Cyprian of Carthage viewed all the bishops of the church possessing the “Chair of Peter”. That seems to be a key point in Dr. Hahn’s presentation - Peter and his successors possess the keys. Note, the Orthodox perspective on the Matthew text appears to be closer to Cyprian than to Augustine (who is often quoted by Protestants).
I don’t recollect St. Cyprian of Carthage saying that all the bishops of the Church possess the “Chair of Peter”.
 
I don’t recollect St. Cyprian of Carthage saying that all the bishops of the Church possess the “Chair of Peter”.
Cyprian

The Lord says to Peter: “I say to you,” he says, “that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . .” [Matt. 16:18–19] On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was , but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. . . . If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
 
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