"Catholic" vs. "Roman Catholic"

[Kevin_Walker]

ByzCath:

The Roman Catholic Church is one of the 23 churches that makes up the Catholic Church. I am a member of the Byzantine Catholic Church, it is not Roman.

Hi,

It may pain you to read in the NEW ADVENT which is the Catholic Encyclopedia where is stated that the Vatican views the Eastern Rite Churches as schizonists and the Protestants as hereticts.

Also, issued on September 5, 2000 *DOMINUS IEUSUS *Vatican Document and Letter 00-211-JB the primacy and supremacy of the Roman Catholic Church was re-asserted and that only the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, is indeed the successor of Peter. All others are to be referred to as ecclesial communities.

*DOMINUS IEUSUS *was issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith of the Roman Catholic Church, and ratified by Pope John Paul II.

It appears the Vatican tolerates the Eastern Rites Churches only, the term Catholic can sometimes be loosely used.

 

[a_pilgrim]

Kevin Walker:

It appears the Vatican tolerates the Eastern Rites Churches only, the term Catholic can sometimes be loosely used.

Dear Kevin,

I respectfully ask that you reconsider your choice of words with regard to your interpretation of the Vatican’s view of the Churches of the East.

Our Holy Father has made it clear that his respect and appreciation for the riches that Eastern spirituality contributes to the fabric of our Catholic Church far exceeds mere “toleration,” as is evident in the following exerpt from Orientale Lumen (1995):

21. The Eastern Churches which entered into full communion with Rome wished to be an expression of this concern, according to the degree of maturity of the ecclesial awareness of the time.(57) In entering into catholic communion, they did not at all intend to deny their fidelity to their own tradition, to which they have borne witness down the centuries with heroism and often by shedding their blood. And if sometimes, in their relations with the Orthodox Churches, misunderstandings and open opposition have arisen, we all know that we must ceaselessly implore divine mercy and a new heart capable of reconciliation over and above any wrong suffered or inflicted.

It has been stressed several times that the full union of the Catholic Eastern Churches with the Church of Rome which has already been achieved must not imply a diminished awareness of their own authenticity and originality.(58) Wherever this occurred, the Second Vatican Council has urged them to rediscover their full identity, because they have “the right and the duty to govern themselves according to their own special disciplines. For these are guaranteed by ancient tradition, and seem to be better suited to the customs of their faithful and to the good of their souls.”(59) These Churches carry a tragic wound, for they are still kept from full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches despite sharing in the heritage of their fathers. A constant, shared conversion is indispensable for them to advance resolutely and energetically towards mutual understanding. And conversion is also required of the Latin Church, that she may respect and fully appreciate the dignity of Eastern Christians, and accept gratefully the spiritual treasures of which the Eastern Catholic Churches are the bearers, to the benefit of the entire catholic communion;(60) that she may show concretely, far more than in the past, how much she esteems and admires the Christian East and how essential she considers its contribution to the full realization of the Church’s universality.

For your benefit, please allow me to provide you with a link to the entire text of Orientale Lumen:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_02051995_orientale-lumen_en.html

a pilgrim

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Kevin Walker:

issued on September 5, 2000 *DOMINUS IEUSUS *Vatican Document and Letter 00-211-JB the primacy and supremacy of the Roman Catholic Church was re-asserted and that only the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, is indeed the successor of Peter. All others are to be referred to as ecclesial communities.

This is not correct. Dominus Iesus teaches that the Eastern Orthodox Churches are Churches and not ecclesial communities.

From Dominus Iesus:

**"The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.

"On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery, are not Churches in the proper sense**

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

---

“We are unchanged; we are still the same as we were in the eighth century… Oh that you could only consent to be again what you were once, when we were both united in faith and communion!” -Alexis Khomiakov

 

[vern_humphrey]

RobedWithLight:

What encyclical is it?

Gerry

Apparently he is referring to SATIS COGNITUM.

Leo did not write in English, and it is possible to torture some of his phrases into “Roman Catholic.”

The context makes it plain that Leo is asserting the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, not talking about the “Roman Catholic” Church as if there were other kinds of Catholics, or as if that were the proper name of the Catholic Church.

 

[PaulAckermann]

rayray81:

Your friend is right. That is why in the creed the word catholic is not capitalized.

My quess is that both the Apostolic Creed and the Nicene Creed were written in Greek.

I am a little fuzzy on this (its been over 25 years since I studied Greek), and I may be wrong, but I think I recall Greek not having any capitalized letters.

 

[vern_humphrey]

PaulAckermann:

My quess is that both the Apostolic Creed and the Nicene Creed were written in Greek.

I am a little fuzzy on this (its been over 25 years since I studied Greek), and I may be wrong, but I think I recall Greek not having any capitalized letters.

In ancient times, they wrote in a form called Scripta Continuosa (continuous script, or continuous writing.) There were no spaces between words (and no punctuation marks.) The custom of using capital letters as we use them now (at the start of sentences, and for proper nouns) did not exist.

Catholic was an adjective, not a noun – it means “universal” and since there was no other Christian church, there was no need to regard it as a noun. “Catholic” as a noun emerged as heresies began to spring up, and was used to designate the true church from the false churches.

 

[Giennensis]

Hello

I didn’t read all the thread because I don’t have very much time, but I’d like to add a thing about the rites issue:

I have seen people often use the terms “latin rite” and “roman rite” as synonims, so, to say “Roman Catholic” would be the same as saying “Roman Rite/Latin Rite Catholic”. I think this is incorrect for a reason:

Roman Rite is not equal to Latin Rite. There are several western/latin rites. I don mean sub rites (i.e. local variations of a rite) but full rites different from the roman one. For example, in Spain, where I live, we have the mozarabic rite (also called hispanic or visigothic rite). It’s also a latin rite because its liturgy is in latin. It’s a pity, because it’s almost dead, but it still survives in the diocese of Toledo and in some places (like a certain parish in my city). I also know there are other western rites, like the Gallican Rite (an old rite used in the Gallia - i.e. France), thoygh I don’t know if it still survives today or it died.

So, as you can see, all the roman catholics are latin catholics, but not all latin catholics are roman catholics hehehe

Peace

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Giennensis:

Hello

I didn’t read all the thread because I don’t have very much time, but I’d like to add a thing about the rites issue:

I have seen people often use the terms “latin rite” and “roman rite” as synonims, so, to say “Roman Catholic” would be the same as saying “Roman Rite/Latin Rite Catholic”. I think this is incorrect for a reason:

Roman Rite is not equal to Latin Rite. There are several western/latin rites. I don mean sub rites (i.e. local variations of a rite) but full rites different from the roman one. For example, in Spain, where I live, we have the mozarabic rite (also called hispanic or visigothic rite). It’s also a latin rite because its liturgy is in latin. It’s a pity, because it’s almost dead, but it still survives in the diocese of Toledo and in some places (like a certain parish in my city). I also know there are other western rites, like the Gallican Rite (an old rite used in the Gallia - i.e. France), thoygh I don’t know if it still survives today or it died.

So, as you can see, all the roman catholics are latin catholics, but not all latin catholics are roman catholics hehehe

Peace

Good point but not totally correct.

All Latin Catholics can be considered Roman Catholic as even though there are multiple rites in the Roman Rite, they all are part of the same church, the Latin (or Roman) Catholic Church.

 

[Amadeus]

Technically, I agree with Giennensis.

“Roman” should normally refer to “rite” and “Latin” to the Church.

But this differentiation has given way to the interchangeability of the two descriptors. Thus, we read the “Church of Rome” or the Roman Church or the Latin Church, and Roman Catholic, Latin Catholic, Roman rite Catholic and Latin rite Catholic, etc., all signifying the same thing.

These are 7 Rites extant in the West (as compiled by EWTN FAQ):

**(1) Roman ** (also called Latin):

It has maintained a continual existence since the martyrdom of Sts. Peter and Paul in Rome and is the source of a family of Rites in the West. The overwhelming majority of Latin Catholics and of Catholics in general belong to this Rite.The current Roman Rite is that of the 1969 Missale Romanum (Novus Ordo), published in a third edition in 2001.

There are 2 “subrites” or “recensions” under the Roman Rite proper:

(a) ***Missal of 1962 (Tridentine Mass) * ** --Some institutes within the Roman Rite, such as the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP), have the faculty to celebrate the sacramental rites according to the forms in use prior to the Second Vatican Council. This faculty can also be obtained by individual priests from their bishop or from the Pontifical Council Ecclesia Dei.

(b) ***Anglican Use * ** --Since the 1980s the Holy See has granted some former Anglican and Episcopal clergy converting with their parishes the faculty of celebrating the sacramental rites according to Anglican forms, doctrinally corrected.

(2) Mozarabic --The Rite of the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal) known from at least the 6th century. Beginning in the 11th century it was generally replaced by the Roman Rite, although it has remained the Rite of the Cathedral of the Archdiocese of Toledo, Spain, and six parishes which sought permission to adhere to it. Its celebration today is generally semi-private.

(3) Ambrosian --The Rite of the Archdiocese of Milan, Italy, thought to be of early origin and probably consolidated, but not originated, by St. Ambrose. Pope Paul VI was from this Roman Rite. It continues to be celebrated in Milan, though not by all parishes.

**(4) Bragan ** --Rite of the Archdiocese of Braga, the Primatial See of Portugal, it derives from the 12th century or earlier. It continues to be of occasional use.

**(5) Dominican ** – Rite of the Order of Friars Preacher (OP), founded by St. Dominic in 1215.

**(6) Carmelite ** – Rite of the Order of Carmel, whose modern foundation was by St. Berthold c.1154.

**(7) Carthusian ** – Rite of the Carthusian Order founded by St. Bruno in 1084.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

**(6) Carmelite **-- Rite of the Order of Carmel, whose modern foundation was by St. Berthold c.1154.

Unfortunatly there is no more Carmelite Rite. As fore the founder, the Carmelites do not really have a name for their founder. He is only addressed in the original Rule by St Albert as “B”. The Carmelites gave him the name of Berthold but there really is no way to know what his name was.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Dear Fr Ambrose,

Thank you for this information. My reading of Dominus Iesus was untutored and I overemphasized two things:

1. "…they [Eastern Rite Churches] lack full communion with the Catholic church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire church."
2. I was taught by Roman Catholic priests here in Boston that if you do not accept the Pope (not patriarch) as the head of the Church, then that is one condition of determining a non-Catholic religion.

So I had felt justified over the past several years in the opinion that the Eastern Rite Churches were not of the Roman Catholic religion, and were “schizonists” as descibed in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Thank you.

Kevin Walker
South Boston, Massachusetts

**
Fr Ambrose:

This is not correct. Dominus Iesus

teaches that the Eastern Orthodox Churches are Churches and not ecclesial communities.

From Dominus Iesus:

"The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.

"On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery, are not Churches in the proper sense
**
**

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

---

“We are unchanged; we are still the same as we were in the eighth century… Oh that you could only consent to be again what you were once, when we were both united in faith and communion!” -Alexis Khomiakov**

 

[vern_humphrey]

Kevin Walker:

So I had felt justified over the past several years in the opinion that the Eastern Right Churches were not of the Roman Catholic religion, and were “schizonists” as descibed in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

The Eastern Rite (not Eastern Right) Churches DO accept the Primacy of the Pope. The Eastern Orthodox Churches do not – these are the ones which lack full communion.

Most Eastern Rite Churches have Orthodox counterparts (for example, there is an Orthodox Coptic Church and a Catholic Coptic Church.)

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Hi,

We have plenty of Orthodox Churches here in Boston: Russian, Greek, and Albanian. In fact there is a large Albanian Orthodox Church on Broadway in my neighborhood of South Boston. Yet there is no Church with ‘Eastern Rite’ written on it, but plenty of ‘Roman Catholic’ signs on all the Roman Catholic Churches here in Boston. (There are two Lutheran churches in the Boston area that perform their services in Latin!).

But never has the Roman Catholic Church been called a Latin Rite Catholic religion in Boston, at least not in my lifetime. Even the history books do not refer to the Roman Catholic Church as a Latin Rite Catholic church.

So I really must read the Vatican somewhere calling itself a Latin Rite Catholic religion before I include that description in my vocabulary.

ADDENDUM: I just researched that the use of Roman Catholic is proper and is a quick way of identifying your self as a Catholic of the ‘LATIN’ persuasion. I do not want to appear as stubborn, I’m just sticking with what I was taught. The term ‘Latin Rite Catholic’ is absolutely new to me.

Giennensis:

Hello

I didn’t read all the thread because I don’t have very much time, but I’d like to add a thing about the rites issue:

I have seen people often use the terms “latin rite” and “roman rite” as synonims, so, to say “Roman Catholic” would be the same as saying “Roman Rite/Latin Rite Catholic”. I think this is incorrect for a reason:

Roman Rite is not equal to Latin Rite. There are several western/latin rites. I don mean sub rites (i.e. local variations of a rite) but full rites different from the roman one. For example, in Spain, where I live, we have the mozarabic rite (also called hispanic or visigothic rite). It’s also a latin rite because its liturgy is in latin. It’s a pity, because it’s almost dead, but it still survives in the diocese of Toledo and in some places (like a certain parish in my city). I also know there are other western rites, like the Gallican Rite (an old rite used in the Gallia - i.e. France), thoygh I don’t know if it still survives today or it died.

So, as you can see, all the roman catholics are latin catholics, but not all latin catholics are roman catholics hehehe

Peace

 

[vern_humphrey]

Kevin Walker:

Hi,

We have plenty of Orthodox Churches here in Boston: Russian, Greek, and Albanian. In fact there is a large Albanian Orthodox Church on Broadway in my neighborhood of South Boston. Yet there is no Church with ‘Eastern Rite’ written on it, but plenty of ‘Roman Catholic’ signs on all the Roman Catholic Churches here in Boston. (There are two Lutheran churches in the Boston area that perform their services in Latin!).

But never has the Roman Catholic Church been called a Latin Rite Catholic religion in Boston, at least not in my lifetime. Even the history books do not refer to the Roman Catholic Church as a Latin Rite Catholic church.

So I really must read the Vatican somewhere calling itself a Latin Rite Catholic religion before I include that description in my vocabulary.

The Vatican doesn’t “call itself a Latin Rite Catholic religion.” The Vatican calls itself the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is divided into the Western (or Latin) Rite Churches and the Eastern Rite Churches.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Hi,

Thank you. I don’t want to appear as being stubborn, so I did some research and found that the appelage ROMAN Catholic is proper and used as a quick way of identifying oneself as a Catholic of the ‘Latin’ persuasion. Its just that I have never heard the term Latin Rite Catholic ever in my life.

Question: Since Vatican II and we don’t say our Masses in Latin anymore, are we still ‘Latin’ Rite Catholics?

Sorry for the paranoia, I have a Masters in History, and there is so much revisionism going on in the internet that my radar goes up whenever I suspect someone is attempting to re-write history yet again.

Thanx.
vern humphrey:

The Vatican doesn’t “call itself a Latin Rite Catholic religion.” The Vatican calls itself the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is divided into the Western (or Latin) Rite Churches and the Eastern Rite Churches.

 

[Amadeus]

Dear Kevin:

We, Roman Catholics, call ourselves Latins or Latin-rite Catholics simply because Latin is the official language of our Church and her liturgy. there are other more cogent reasons but I leave that to the theologically inclined here.

The West, represented by the Church of Rome, was/is “Latin,” while the East was/is generally referred to as the “Greek” Church also because the ancient language of the Eastern Church(es) and her liturgy was, and is predominatly, Greek. Other Eastern Churches have adopted the vernacular.

The official (and original) language of the current Roman Missal (Missale Romanum), i.e, the Novus Ordo is in Latin. But it has been translated into the vernacular pursuant to and after Vatican II. Some parishes, like St. John Cantius here in Chicago, do the Novus Ordo in Latin, as distinguished from the TLM, or the Tridentine Latin Mass pre-Vatican II. Under Ecclesia Dei, many parishes throughout the world are now authorized to celebrate the Tridentine Latin Mass.

By the way, in the Catholic Communion, there is only one Church representing the West: the Roman Catholic Church. The East is represented by 22 sui juris Particular Churches the largest of which is the UGCC, or the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, although she is just a Major Archbishopric for now.

Eastern Catholic patriarchal Churches are Neil’s Melkite Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, the Maronite Catholic Church, the Syrian Catholic Church, the Chaldean Catholic Church, and the Armenian Catholic Church. (Neil, did I miss anybody?)

DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic, belongs to the Byzantine Catholic Church (the Ruthenians), which is a Metropolitanate.

 

[Digitonomy]

Kevin Walker:

We have plenty of Orthodox Churches here in Boston: Russian, Greek, and Albanian. In fact there is a large Albanian Orthodox Church on Broadway in my neighborhood of South Boston. Yet there is no Church with ‘Eastern Rite’ written on it, but plenty of ‘Roman Catholic’ signs on all the Roman Catholic Churches here in Boston.

From this site, there are apparently three Eastern Catholic churches in Boston proper, with a number of others in the suburbs.

 

[Giennensis]

ByzCath:

Good point but not totally correct.

All Latin Catholics can be considered Roman Catholic as even though there are multiple rites in the Roman Rite, they all are part of the same church, the Latin (or Roman) Catholic Church.

Hi

Well… I think we are mixing terms… I was talking about rites, and you were talking about Churches, so that’s the mess… if we talk about Curches sui iuris then you’re completely right ^_^U

 

[Digitonomy]

rlg94086:

rayray81:

In the Apostle’s Creed it is capitalized. In the Nicene Creed it isn’t. Thats probably what you are remembering. I wasn’t to sure about it myself and went and checked it out after I saw your response.

Does anyone have any background as to why the two creeds have a different use of “C(c)atholic”?

As others have noted from the original Greek background, there is no compelling reason to capitalize or not. Instead, it appears to be an editorial decision. In the English translation of the Catechism, where the two appear next to each other, both are in lower case.

In the New Advent sites linked above, the article on the Apostles’ Creed in particular seems to be rather sloppily edited for capitalization, with inconsistencies on the same word in some cases.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Dear Amado,

Thank you very much for this information.

Upon further research I discovered how much of a misassumption I have been operating under over the past thirty-five years in my confusion, no, in my total ignorance and stupidity over the differences between the Western and Eastern Catholic Churches, and the Orthodox Churches; but to this I plead *in pari delicto *since my ignorance stems from having never been either taught the differences or having them explained to me or having come across these differences in conversation or in my readings.

I am both angry and dismayed that the differences between the Western and Eastern rite Catholics has never been mentioned in any of my History or Philosophy courses (I have a M.A. in History from the University of Massachusetts) or has it been mentioned or explained by any of my Priests as I grew up a (Roman) Catholic. In fact I recently put the question to both a Franciscan Friar and a local Diocese Priest and neither could explain the exact differences.

For me this is an argument for home schooling since I taught myself the exact differences between the Eastern rite Catholics and the Western rite Catholics, that of the right of the Eastern patriarch to choose its Bishops but recognizing the Pope’s authority in approving them, while still retaining in the Eastern rite their own language, rituals, and codes of canon law.

We just had an elderly Eastern rite Catholic priest in the Boston have his resignation accepted by the Pope so the priest could spend more time writing history.

Unfortunately I think I can safely assume that as a Boston area Roman Catholic, other R.C.'s like me are just as ignorant of the Eastern rite Catholics, and that their churches are just as invisible on a day to day basis. I had to go to a website to find just where the Eastern rite Catholic churches are located and found about four in the Boston area (which I had no idea even existed ).

I also need to apologize and thank Dave the Byzantine Catholic for my blatant display of ignorance and his graceful instruction which led me to research this issue.

Thank you for your patience in this.

Yours,
Kevin Walker
South Boston, Massachusetts

Amadeus:

Dear Kevin:

We, Roman Catholics, call ourselves Latins or Latin-rite Catholics simply because Latin is the official language of our Church and her liturgy. there are other more cogent reasons but I leave that to the theologically inclined here.

The West, represented by the Church of Rome, was/is “Latin,” while the East was/is generally referred to as the “Greek” Church also because the ancient language of the Eastern Church(es) and her liturgy was, and is predominatly, Greek. Other Eastern Churches have adopted the vernacular.

The official (and original) language of the current Roman Missal (Missale Romanum), i.e, the Novus Ordo is in Latin. But it has been translated into the vernacular pursuant to and after Vatican II. Some parishes, like St. John Cantius here in Chicago, do the Novus Ordo in Latin, as distinguished from the TLM, or the Tridentine Latin Mass pre-Vatican II. Under Ecclesia Dei, many parishes throughout the world are now authorized to celebrate the Tridentine Latin Mass.

By the way, in the Catholic Communion, there is only one Church representing the West: the Roman Catholic Church. The East is represented by 22 sui juris Particular Churches the largest of which is the UGCC, or the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, although she is just a Major Archbishopric for now.

Eastern Catholic patriarchal Churches are Neil’s Melkite Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, the Maronite Catholic Church, the Syrian Catholic Church, the Chaldean Catholic Church, and the Armenian Catholic Church. (Neil, did I miss anybody?)

DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic, belongs to the Byzantine Catholic Church (the Ruthenians), which is a Metropolitanate.