W
Wesrock
Guest
Oops, I can no longer edit my post, but to be perfectly clear, Mary is included in what I said. Her sinless life is only possible by divine aid, and is not something she could have done without God’s help.
- Status
A
auctoris
Guest
But, since Mary was sinless, they believe God does do it. Do they believe he has done it with anyone besides Mary?
I ask because I’m coming from a Protestant background where there is a very strong belief that Jesus was the only sinless person to ever live. It is essentially heresy to assign sinlessness to any other person since they believe that only God is sinless.
Part of it is based on:
I am not arguing for the veracity of this point. I just want to understand the Catholic perspective better. Again, please don’t anyone think I’m promoting or supporting a Protestant theology. I am just discussing the differences from my background so I can learn the Catholic view. I won’t list my anti-Protestant or pro-Catholic credentials again, just trust me that I’m not a Protestant sympathizer. I’m just not fully Catholic yet.
Thank you
W
Wesrock
Guest
There is a tradition that John the Baptist was baptized in the womb when he leapt for joy at the same time Elizabeth was “filled with the Holy Spirit.”
He wasn’t conceived without original sin, but like anyone who is baptized, the “guilt” of it was washed away prior to birth, according to this tradition. I don’t know that he lived a sinless life, though. Perhaps.
I think any baptized Christian, with God’s aid, could conceivably live a sinless life (excepting original sin, which according to the RCC view, would require an “Immaculate Conception” to avoid). This would NOT be due to his own merits, but only because of God’s grace and would be entirely attributable to God. To my knowledge, the Church has not declared that anyone else has lived such a life, though. This wouldn’t imply he is an automaton, either, as he would be cooperating with God’s grace, but any merit would have its first source in God, not the man.
At this point, I feel like I’m straying into unfamiliar territory, so please take my explanations with a grain of salt. Anyone else have any insight?
EDIT: I missed a very important NOT up above.
He wasn’t conceived without original sin, but like anyone who is baptized, the “guilt” of it was washed away prior to birth, according to this tradition. I don’t know that he lived a sinless life, though. Perhaps.
I think any baptized Christian, with God’s aid, could conceivably live a sinless life (excepting original sin, which according to the RCC view, would require an “Immaculate Conception” to avoid). This would NOT be due to his own merits, but only because of God’s grace and would be entirely attributable to God. To my knowledge, the Church has not declared that anyone else has lived such a life, though. This wouldn’t imply he is an automaton, either, as he would be cooperating with God’s grace, but any merit would have its first source in God, not the man.
At this point, I feel like I’m straying into unfamiliar territory, so please take my explanations with a grain of salt. Anyone else have any insight?
EDIT: I missed a very important NOT up above.
D
Della
Guest
As to Aquinas, at the time he lived, people believed that a baby was not truly alive until the mother felt him move in her womb, what was call “quickening.” It harkens back to St. Elizabeth declaring that her son John “leapt in my womb” upon hearing Mary’s voice (yet another indication that Mary is more than a mere vessel, but truly the Theotokos). So, according to Aquinas medical knowledge which was quite incomplete, as we now know, Mary must have existed but not truly alive until her quickening in her mother’s womb. He was so close to the truth of the matters, as defined by Dun Scotus, but he didn’t quite make the leap to her pre-redemption in her mother’s womb from the first instance of her presence (her conception). So, her lumped Mary in with the OT saints. But again, he was so close, and yet didn’t quite see the connections due to his limited knowledge of conception–no fault to him for not knowing what he couldn’t have known.
I want to make it clear that all I have written about Mary isn’t merely my pious ruminations. I may be a woman, but I’m not at all a sentimental person who thinks of Mary floating in pink clouds disconnected to the rest of the human race. Indeed, I see her very much as I have describe her–the Second Eve.
If Adam and Eve hadn’t fallen, Eve would have been what Mary was. She would have remained sinless, while Mary was preserved from sin, Eve would have been obedient–Mary was obedient due to her faith and her lack of concupiscence, again a privilege God gave her since she was Christ’s mother. All that Eve would have had Mary had, only Mary had to suffer by living in a fallen, sinful world and remain faithful while doing so.
Mary’s faithfulness was rewarded because it was not just fitting to her to her faithfulness, but because it is what Christ has promised. How could it be otherwise if he were to be true to his promise that we can be holy, not merely ape holiness nor have our sins covered, as if they don’t matter to God? I am not being the least sweet or having nice feelings about Mary, I am relating truths about Mary. I just wanted to make that perfectly clear.
I want to make it clear that all I have written about Mary isn’t merely my pious ruminations. I may be a woman, but I’m not at all a sentimental person who thinks of Mary floating in pink clouds disconnected to the rest of the human race. Indeed, I see her very much as I have describe her–the Second Eve.
If Adam and Eve hadn’t fallen, Eve would have been what Mary was. She would have remained sinless, while Mary was preserved from sin, Eve would have been obedient–Mary was obedient due to her faith and her lack of concupiscence, again a privilege God gave her since she was Christ’s mother. All that Eve would have had Mary had, only Mary had to suffer by living in a fallen, sinful world and remain faithful while doing so.
Mary’s faithfulness was rewarded because it was not just fitting to her to her faithfulness, but because it is what Christ has promised. How could it be otherwise if he were to be true to his promise that we can be holy, not merely ape holiness nor have our sins covered, as if they don’t matter to God? I am not being the least sweet or having nice feelings about Mary, I am relating truths about Mary. I just wanted to make that perfectly clear.
P
Peebo
Guest
I became a Catholic 24 years ago… I trusted the church teachings on The Virgin Mary mainly through the authority of the Catholic Church…which is one of the main reasons that drew me to the church…I didn’t immediately jump into any form of Marian devotion because while I didn’t doubt the churches teaching I just wasn’t particularly interested in making it part of my devotion which focused on the mass which of course is central to the Catholic faith…I never even said the rosary for many years because it didn’t interest me at that time…and coming from a Protestant background it is a doctrine that takes time to work through…but don’t worry because there are many cradle Catholics who don’t pray the rosary…I do now pray it daily…my main focus now is Eucharistic Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament…don’t feel that you might be taking away from worship of the Blessed Trinity by developing a devotion to our Blessed Mother…I know that is also what holds a lot of Protestants back from doing just that…while Catholics hold a special devotion to the Blessed Mother that’s all it is…it is not worship which is only for God…if you feel that you are being called to the Catholic faith then that is what you should do…join RCIA…you seem to accept all the teachings of the church…even about the Virgin Mary…just that you are unsure at this time because of it being foriegn to you as a Protestant…don’t be put off by some Catholics who have a special devotion to the Blessed Mother and who can be judgmental in questioning your position on that matter…it is worthwhile but certainly not necessary to a Catholic…in time as you learn more about her role and through prayer you may even develop that special relation with her as well…good luck on your journey
L
Lenten_ashes
Guest
Hi Auctoris.
I think Jesus uses hyperbole sometimes in order to make a point.
Like the passage where he says pluck out your eye if it causes you to sin? The Church understands that to be hyperbole, THANKFULLY , lol.
In that passage it looks like Jesus is objecting to being called good, which is totally absurd since we know he is perfect.
The main thing protestants point to is Romans 3 when Paul says all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.
Thing is, there are exceptions. Jesus did not sin…retarded people do not sin, babies do not sin, etc. And if were not for the divine intervention by God, Mary would have too since she is a created being.
Pax
D
Della
Guest
No, except that the Church teaches that St. John the Baptist was born (not conceived) without original sin because St. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit when she saw Mary, who was pregnant with Jesus, and believed Mary was the mother of the Messiah. St.JB’s birthday is celebrated for this reason–his, Jesus’ and Mary’s are the only birthdays the Church celebrates.
Having come from a similar background, I understand this completely. Indeed, I have a B. A. in Bible from an Assemblies of God Bible college, so I have a good handle on this teaching and why it is believed. The teaching is meant to exclude Marian teachings–really there is no other good reason for it.
Again, I understand your hurdles quite well. The evening I went to my first RCIA session I literally shook with fear because of the anti-Catholic things I’d been taught in my former sect. Even Scripture was poison to me because every passage I read was colored by what the sect had interpreted them to mean. I had to switch gears completely to see Scripture from the Catholic perspective (which I found the truest one not merely because the Church says so, but it was the only way Scripture made sense). It’s one of the hardest things for converts to do–to switch off false teaching (there’s a lot of good teaching in Protestantism, don’t get me wrong) in order to absorb true teachings. Getting just a few things decidedly wrong skews even the true ones, sad to say. It’s what makes it so hard to know which are true and which aren’t.
L
Lenten_ashes
Guest
Auctoris, not to derail the thread but how do you feel about the Churches’ teaching on the Eucharist?
I ask because when i was just considering Catholicism the Marian dogmas were the main stickler for me…then I asked myself the hypothetical, that if the RCC is wrong about Mary and these beliefs are overblown, how big of a deal is it, really? Since they aren’t worshiping her, all they are doing is honoring the person who bore our salvation in her womb.
OTOH, the teaching on Transubstantiation/Eucharistic adoration…well, if they are wrong about that then they are violating multiple commandments and may be endangering their very souls.
Are you totally on board with these teachings on the Eucharist?
Thank you.
Pax
I ask because when i was just considering Catholicism the Marian dogmas were the main stickler for me…then I asked myself the hypothetical, that if the RCC is wrong about Mary and these beliefs are overblown, how big of a deal is it, really? Since they aren’t worshiping her, all they are doing is honoring the person who bore our salvation in her womb.
OTOH, the teaching on Transubstantiation/Eucharistic adoration…well, if they are wrong about that then they are violating multiple commandments and may be endangering their very souls.
Are you totally on board with these teachings on the Eucharist?
Thank you.
Pax
T
thenobes
Guest
You’re welcome!I’m going to try one more time.
If you were going to make a case to the Orthodox, Coptic, or Anglican church to adopt the Marian dogmas as divine truth, what reasons would you give them? How would you make a case that these are incontrovertible truths necessary for all Christians to believe in order to belong to their churches? Is there any way to make that case to these churches that does not rely solely on an appeal to the authority of the Catholic Church (which I believe it has)?
Thank you
I think the difficulty here has to be with the necessity of belief. One always has to keep in mind the principle of invincible ignorance.
.
To be a Christian is to be on a path toward Christ, knowing that he is the way to follow. But how can you follow someonewhen He isn’t adequately made known to you. He must do this Himself. The Church insists it is the authoritative explicator of the nature of Christ, given to it by Christ Himself.
Thus the Christian now has a defined goal to work toward and follow.
If you belong to the CC, you accept this authority to absolutely define the nature of Our Lord. However, just because you are not a member does not mean that you cannot move yourself towards Our Lord as you understand the Church has revealed. This would then be a case of “currently invincible ignorance”.
Thus the dogmas define the nature of Christ, in all His aspects, including how He is manifested in His Church (Marian dogmas are related to these.)
In conclusion, there needs to be a definition of Who Christ is if we are to follow Him. The Church has a set of definitions in its book, the Bible. There is a living explanation in Sacred Tradition. The closer we follow these, the closer we follow Christ.
peace,
steve
A
auctoris
Guest
That brings up another question. Do Catholics believe Mary was simply sinless through the grace of God or was she perfect. Other than divine nature, how did she differ from Jesus?
Thank you
A
auctoris
Guest
I don’t have that problem. From nursery school through middle school I went to a private fundamentalist independent Baptist school. Great education, bad theology. So we were taught Kings James Only, young earth creationism, the pope is the anti-christ, the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon, etc. But I went to a good church and my parents taught me how the school had some messed up theology, so it never stuck to begin with.
If there were any remaining Catholic fear, I’d say that was long gone about five years ago. I’ve been so absorbed in all things Catholic, I could probably teach RCIA. I’ve even been to most of the Catholic Churches in Israel.
Thanks
D
Della
Guest
She was perfectly human.
Since she was conceived without the stain of original sin, her nature wasn’t corrupted, her intellect wasn’t darkened, and her will wasn’t weakened, as it is for us. Thus, she had no concupiscence–no desire to sin, but she could have sinned if she had done like Eve and disobeyed God’s commands. That is different from Jesus, who being divine, couldn’t have sinned.
A
auctoris
Guest
I don’t have a problem with it. To my knowledge the Marian dogmas and just one other issue are the only things left that I need to get my head around better. As I mentioned before, I’ve read most of the full catechism, the compendium, and YouCat so I think I’ve covered most everything.
I won’t mention the other issue right now since that could send us off in an entirely different direction. I’ll post it in a separate thread when I get past this one. It’s not a big deal.
We’ll just keep this thread exclusively for Mary. Does that means it’s consecrated?
I have no idea what that means, but I hear it all the time–“consecrated to Mary”.Thanks
A
auctoris
Guest
I should clarify that I have no problem understanding these beliefs should be true. And I do not believe I would have problem accepting that they are true. I just haven’t given it a commitment yet.
Thanks
D
Della
Guest
I was taken out of my Episcopal Church when my father died, by my mother, who became enamored of Pentecostalism. I was a very impressionable young teen when I caught the the anti-Catholic fever from the sect’s anti-Catholic rhetoric, which bordered on mania. I’m so glad I had that background in the ECUSA or I might never have been able to tear myself away from the sect. As an Anglican C. S. Lewis helped me realize the things my sect taught were skewed, but it was reading J. R. R. Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings that really turned my heart around. Each of us is led as God wishes, using our natures, our strengths and weaknesses to bring us to the truth. It’s why we need to trust that he is leading us, especially when we are privileged to learn so much that so many others will either never hear or never be able to accept.I don’t have that problem. From nursery school through middle school I went to a private fundamentalist independent Baptist school. Great education, bad theology. So we were taught Kings James Only, young earth creationism, the pope is the anti-christ, the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon, etc. But I went to a good church and my parents taught me how the school had some messed up theology, so it never stuck to begin with.
If there were any remaining Catholic fear, I’d say that was long gone about five years ago. I’ve been so absorbed in all things Catholic, I could probably teach RCIA. I’ve even been to most of the Catholic Churches in Israel.
Thanks
L
Lenten_ashes
Guest
I’m in agreement with Della.
I would just add that full cup analogy…if the cup is totally full of coffee beans and I wanted add pinto beans, I’d first need to remove the coffee beans. If she is full of grace it’s hard, actually impossible to sin. So while technically she could, she actually couldn’t lol.
Kind of like with the Angels. Here we have these wonderful, majestic beings who often represent God on missions…and some of them are sinning against God. So we know they were cast out, yet there are many angels who remain. Could they also sin? Yes, they could, but no they wont. And God knew it from the beginning just like he knew of our Lady from the beginning Genesis 3:15
Pax
L
Lenten_ashes
Guest
Definitely consecrated to her immaculate heart!!!I don’t have a problem with it. To my knowledge the Marian dogmas and just one other issue are the only things left that I need to get my head around better. As I mentioned before, I’ve read most of the full catechism, the compendium, and YouCat so I think I’ve covered most everything.
I won’t mention the other issue right now since that could send us off in an entirely different direction. I’ll post it in a separate thread when I get past this one. It’s not a big deal.
We’ll just keep this thread exclusively for Mary. Does that means it’s consecrated?
Thanks
Funny I only see that on the internet but never heard it in or around Church
What I have noticed is that while we are united in the Catholic faith, not all Catholic churches are created the same. My parish is part of the Charismatic renewal so I get the best of both worlds.
Thank you for clarifying on the Eucharist.
L
Lenten_ashes
Guest
Authorized version, 1611!!!I don’t have that problem. From nursery school through middle school I went to a private fundamentalist independent Baptist school. Great education, bad theology. So we were taught Kings James Only, young earth creationism, the pope is the anti-christ, the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon, etc. But I went to a good church and my parents taught me how the school had some messed up theology, so it never stuck to begin with.
If there were any remaining Catholic fear, I’d say that was long gone about five years ago. I’ve been so absorbed in all things Catholic, I could probably teach RCIA. I’ve even been to most of the Catholic Churches in Israel.
Thanks
Man they are staunch with that. I used to listen to a minister on the radio from one of those churches. He was always harping on avoiding “those funny bibles” lol.
Pax
J
Justin61790
Guest
That sounds like the school I went to. They wouldnt even allow the teachers to use textbooks that had quotes from bible translations that werent the KJV. And they fed us so much misinformation about the Church, science, and ignored or mocked anything that conflicted with their beliefs. Thankfully their misinformation only made me more curious and inquisitive about the Church. So their plan to turn me into a fundamental baptist completely backfired.I don’t have that problem. From nursery school through middle school I went to a private fundamentalist independent Baptist school. Great education, bad theology. So we were taught Kings James Only, young earth creationism, the pope is the anti-christ, the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon, etc. But I went to a good church and my parents taught me how the school had some messed up theology, so it never stuck to begin with.
If there were any remaining Catholic fear, I’d say that was long gone about five years ago. I’ve been so absorbed in all things Catholic, I could probably teach RCIA. I’ve even been to most of the Catholic Churches in Israel.
Thanks
I hear that so much from the Baptists that I grew up around and live around. One of my friends and his parents believe that the translators of the NKJV were punished by God and that all other translations are works of the Devil. His mother even believes Latin is the language of the Devil.
A
auctoris
Guest
- Status