Catholic woman ordained in Lutheran Church

[hn160]

I respect your opinion. Don’t forget, I am a cradle Lutheran educated in the LCMS. Many ‘catholics’ in the 1970’s left the Missouri Synod over seminary restraints and had a hand in renewing Apostolic Succession to American Lutheranism [ELCA].

I am a cradle Lutheran in the LCA/ELCA but with the move to ordain homosexuals my wife and I moved to the LC-MS. I was never happy with women ordination even though I have a cousin that is a woman pastor. The woman ordination started the downward slide in the ELCA. The next logical step was homosexual ordination. When the ELCA signed intercommunion agreements with the Calvinist Churches and the Eposcopal Church which allowed ELCA pastors to serve in those Churches and their pastors to serve in ELCA churches, you Lutheran doctrine is being watered down and Scripture is being bent to conform to the world.
My LC-MS pastor who was in seminary at Fort Waye around the time after the walkout at St Louis said that these seminary professors who was part of the walkout were not teaching orthodox Lutheran doctrine. There are still remnants in the LC-MS which is the DayStar group which try’s to bring up women ordination at each convention.
A good book on the walkout is “A Seminary in Crisis”.
This book recounts events in The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (LCMS) leading up to the 1974 walkout at Concordia Seminary, Saint Louis.

Beginning with the 1947 division over church fellowship, the author sheds light on the numerous small controversies that culminated in charges against the faculty for teaching contrary to the LCMS position on biblical authority. Zimmerman shares his personal account of the Fact Finding Committee interviews, coupled with pertinent passages from convention documents, bylaws, and findings of the committee.

This book includes the full report of the Fact Finding Committee, never before made public, and the “Blue Book,” the complete 1972 report of the synodical president.

Paul Zimmerman, retired college president and pastor, has served in The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod for more than 50 years. He is one of two living members of the Fact Finding Committee appointed by LCMS President J. A. O. Preus to investigate charges of false doctrine being taught at Concordia Seminary.
*

 

[Faithdancer]

Good for you and your wife, HN. The Anglican/Episcopal churches have also undergone fragmentation as a result of these same issues, particularly in America although if the new Archbishop of Canterbury follows the Episcopalians iinto the downhill slide to ordaining active homosexuals, the Church of England will splinter as well.

As the old saying goes, though, what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. The Reformed Episcopal Church, the Orthodox Anglican Communion and more recently, the Anglican Church in North America are doing their best to preserve traditional values and worship. They are carrying on despite often being bereft of their churches and required to meet in rented facilities, coffeeshops, etc. In my area these congregations meet in places as various as a warehouse makeshift chapel, a high school multi-purpose room and a UMC church before the Methodist Sunday service. They are sometimes required to set up and tear down everything each week, but they are dedicated and determined to resist the infections of secularism and moral relativism that have infected the American Episcopal Church. I find the perseverance of the Diocese of San Joaquin particularly inspiring; here is one story:
modbee.com/2013/05/24/2722994/turlock-episcopal-congregation.html

 

[steido01]

@EvangelCatholic, you noted that you did not approve of some of herchurch’s practices - their perversion of the Rosary, their deviance from (denial of?) the Trinity, etc. but you seem to be supportive of this “ordination.” Where do you draw the line, and how can you possibly draw it? If you believe the church is truly in a state of constant evolution, wouldn’t any line you draw be entirely dependent on the secular zeitgeist?

Also, I’d be curious to hear from your perspective why ELCA leadership has permitted this strangeness to continue. Chicago has been, at best, reluctant to take disciplinary action and, at worst, perhaps even affirming of herchurch’s practices.

 

[pablope]

But are the bishops aware of what Richard Rohr teaches?

Out of curiosity, I did some searching for Fr. Rohr:

In a 2003 letter to his diocese, the Archbishop of Santa Fe, Michael Sheehan, wrote that Rohr had agreed in discussions to conform to official Catholic teachings in his presentations.[16]

^ Sheehan, Michael J (May 2, 2003). “To whom it may concern”. Letter. Los Pequenos. Retrieved 10/23/11.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rohr

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6819
*
Conclusion

At the conference I explained to another attendee that I did not think Rohr should call his “male spirituality” Catholic. This individual responded that I was being too rigid in my interpretation of Catholicism, that Rohr just has a very “broad” sense of what it means to be Catholic. To which I posed this situation in reply: Imagine that you, a Cajun, traveled to some state in the Midwest and went to a restaurant advertising that it sold “Cajun food” and you ordered a bowl of gumbo. But what was brought out to you was a bowl of watery soup with a few pieces of steak floating in it. Would you call that authentic “Cajun food”? Of course not. No Cajun in his right mind would. Then why would you be more dogmatic in your approach to food than in your approach to your faith?

In sum, Rohr’s presentation of his so-called “male spirituality” should certainly not be called Catholic. Though he claimed at his conference to sit in the “larger Christian and Catholic tradition,” he fails to demonstrate how referring to God as Mother, encouraging homosexual advocacy, denying the spiritual reality of Original Sin, denying the necessity of the Cross for redemption, and promoting pagan rituals resides within the Catholic or even Christian tradition.*

And apparently, it has raised concerns from other catholics who wrote to their bishops:

renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/060123

 

[pablope]

But are the bishops aware of what Richard Rohr teaches?

More:

catholicmediacoalition.org/rohr_CAC.htm

What Are Fr. Richard Rohr and CAC Up To Now?

By Stephanie Block

In 2003, the Catholic lay organization Los Pequeños de Cristo presented a dossier to the Archbishop of Santa Fe, Michael Sheehan, concerning Fr. Richard Rohr and the Center for Action and Contemplation (CAC) that he founded in New Mexico. It was concerned, among other things, with the New Age and Call to Action distortions coming from Fr. Rohr and the Center. (The dossier may be viewed at www.lospequenos.org.)

Four years later, the situation continues. Despite recent Pepper coverage (3-07) of Rohr’s officiating at the sacrilegious “St. Thomas Mass,” the Archdiocese of Santa Fe continues to recognize Father as a “priest in good standing,” and to permit his CAC all the privileges of a Catholic institution – such as the right to advertise its so-called “19th Annual Way of the Cross,” which commemorates “The Passion of the Earth,” in the Archdiocese’s Catholic Communicator (3-25-07). An examination of Fr. Rohr and the CAC’s activities since 2003 in promoting New Age spirituality and Call to Action involvement is timely.

 

[PJM]

=EvangelCatholic;10795367]Interesting articles of a group of Roman Catholic women being ordained priests. In this case the ordaination will be in San Francisco. It is no surprise that the ordination today is to occur at the notorious Ebenezer Lutheran Church.

sophiaintrinity.org/

davidperry.com/maria-eitz-to-be-first-female-catholic-priest-ordained-in-san-francisco.html

I googled it and also found the announcement on the front page of the LA Times:

latimes.com/news/local/la-me-female-priests-20130526,0,2491697,full.story

Any thoughts?

Such is both invalid and elict.

There will be no grace flowing from and through them. NONE!

 

[Faithdancer]

More:

catholicmediacoalition.org/rohr_CAC.htm

What Are Fr. Richard Rohr and CAC Up To Now?

By Stephanie Block

In 2003, the Catholic lay organization Los Pequeños de Cristo presented a dossier to the Archbishop of Santa Fe, Michael Sheehan, concerning Fr. Richard Rohr and the Center for Action and Contemplation (CAC) that he founded in New Mexico. It was concerned, among other things, with the New Age and Call to Action distortions coming from Fr. Rohr and the Center. (The dossier may be viewed at www.lospequenos.org.)

Four years later, the situation continues. Despite recent Pepper coverage (3-07) of Rohr’s officiating at the sacrilegious “St. Thomas Mass,” the Archdiocese of Santa Fe continues to recognize Father as a “priest in good standing,” and to permit his CAC all the privileges of a Catholic institution – such as the right to advertise its so-called “19th Annual Way of the Cross,” which commemorates “The Passion of the Earth,” in the Archdiocese’s Catholic Communicator (3-25-07). An examination of Fr. Rohr and the CAC’s activities since 2003 in promoting New Age spirituality and Call to Action involvement is timely.

Interesting stuff, and interesting that for the first time in years, in 2013 Rohr was not on the program at the Los Angeles Religious Education Congress. Now, how heterodox does one have to be to get taken off of that list of speakers??? Anyway, apparently Rohr has scaled back his speaking engagements and is staying close to home, though he is still actively involved with his male spirituality movement and his men’s retreats.

As far as Rohr still being a “priest in good standing,” well, in some dioceses one would have to go a lot further than Richard Rohr to become a priest not in “good standing.”

 

[MaryT777]

So are Catholic educators in the Church who disagree with you not following the “faith and morals”?

Those who disagree with the Catechism regarding faith and morals are indeed in grave error.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Those who disagree with the Catechism regarding faith and morals are indeed in grave error.

So why have they not been censured?

 

[steido01]

@EvangelCatholic, you noted that you did not approve of some of herchurch’s practices - their perversion of the Rosary, their deviance from (denial of?) the Trinity, etc. but you seem to be supportive of this “ordination.” Where do you draw the line, and how can you possibly draw it? If you believe the church is truly in a state of constant evolution, wouldn’t any line you draw be entirely dependent on the secular zeitgeist?

Also, I’d be curious to hear from your perspective why ELCA leadership has permitted this strangeness to continue. Chicago has been, at best, reluctant to take disciplinary action and, at worst, perhaps even affirming of herchurch’s practices.

Just wanted to apologize for saying you seem to be supportive of this “ordination.” After re-reading your posts, I think I might have inferred more than I should have. I’m not actually sure where you stand. Please disregard that first paragraph.

That said, I’d love a response to my second paragraph!

 

[PRmerger]

So why have they not been censured?

Perhaps you mean: why have they not been publicly censured?

 

[pablope]

So why have they not been censured?

What do you mean by “censured”?

 

[MaryT777]

So why have they not been censured?

We really don’t know what type of private conversations they have had with a priest.
Why not publicly? I don’t know; it’s frustrating and sends mixed messages to the non Catholic public.

 

[steve_b]

Well, I didn’t use it, but that said, it does hold out a light of hope, considering the trend toward greater understanding about our views on justification.

Jon

Did all Lutherans sign off on that? As I recall they didn’t but maybe I’m wrong on that. Re: the topic, one can’t unring that bell.

 

[JonNC]

Did all Lutherans sign off on that? As I recall they didn’t but maybe I’m wrong on that. Re: the topic, one can’t unring that bell.

My synod did not, but then again, I suspect the CC would rather have a dialogue partner who, like they, are steadfast, and work from that steadfast position.

Re: the topic; that bell doesn’t ring for either of us.

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

My synod did not, but then again, I suspect the CC would rather have a dialogue partner who, like they, are steadfast, and work from that steadfast position.

Re: the topic; that bell doesn’t ring for either of us.

Jon

The CC was happy to dialogue with those Lutherans who spent a lot of time to dialogue
regarding justification. I disagree we’d “rather ave a dialogue partner” such as the LCMS instead of the LWF of which the ELCA is a part if I recall correctly. We’re willing to dialogue. The LCMS actually put out a pretty strong statement against the signing of the JDDJ indicating they felt it was a really setback for Lutheranism.

Given that; I admire their steadfast honest position refusing to sign the document.

 

[JonNC]

The CC was happy to dialogue with those Lutherans who spent a lot of time to dialogue
regarding justification. I disagree we’d “rather ave a dialogue partner” such as the LCMS instead of the LWF of which the ELCA is a part if I recall correctly. We’re willing to dialogue. The LCMS actually put out a pretty strong statement against the signing of the JDDJ indicating they felt it was a really setback for Lutheranism.

Given that; I admire their steadfast honest position refusing to sign the document.

Yeah, they did. I disagreed with their position as I find it a very Lutheran statement. What I meant was that the ELCA, while doing a good job of dialogue on some issues, continues to move away from Rome on others - the clergy, morals - to name a couple.

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

Yeah, they did. I disagreed with their position as I find it a very Lutheran statement. What I meant was that the ELCA, while doing a good job of dialogue on some issues, continues to move away from Rome on others - the clergy, morals - to name a couple.

Jon

I agree. We could have some great discussion on moral the CC and the LCMS
Hopefully in the future.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I have been away for a week or so but this thread is “blah” lol.

EC…do you post these threads to try to prove a point that the Church is in error? I have followed many of your threads and they seem to point out people that leave the Church to join Lutheranism. If someone leaves the Church, I feel sadness. If someone leaves the Church to do something that is against Scripture, I pray for them.

Are you for the ordination of women?

The Catholic Church will NEVER ordain women because the Church does not have the authority to do so. Christ never ordained women and we are to follow the example He set for us. IF, and that is a HUGE IF, the Church went down this path, I would pray that the Holy Spirit would correct this human error.

 

[CopticChristian]

I have been away for a week or so but this thread is “blah” lol.

EC…do you post these threads to try to prove a point that the Church is in error? I have followed many of your threads and they seem to point out people that leave the Church to join Lutheranism. If someone leaves the Church, I feel sadness. If someone leaves the Church to do something that is against Scripture, I pray for them.

Are you for the ordination of women?

The Catholic Church will NEVER ordain women because the Church does not have the authority to do so. Christ never ordained women and we are to follow the example He set for us. IF, and that is a HUGE IF, the Church went down this path, I would pray that the Holy Spirit would correct this human error.

Evangel is a member of the ELCA and admits to being in a group/church that celebrates same sex marriage, ordains women, accepts homosexual members and the only thing Evangel has not said is that his own sexual orientation is in question, however it does make you wonder:shrug: