Catholic woman ordained in Lutheran Church

[aidanbradypop]

I guess my point is that the media latched on to their self-understanding of being Roman Catholic in order to blow the issue up to sell more papers etc. rather than portraying it in its fullness.

kind of like the OP did?

 

[Porknpie]

Actually, only certain parishes do this. Most of them are opposed or indifferent to the matter. The ELCA, nationally, has deferred the decision to local congregations. Saying that we “celebrate same sex marriage” is a gross overstatement.

From ELCA.org

Lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships
**Within the last decades, this church has begun to understand and experience in new ways the need of same-gender-oriented individuals to seek relationships of lifelong companionship **and commitment as well as public accountability and legal support for those commitments. At the same time, public debates and deliberations have continued regarding understandings of human sexuality in medicine, social science, and corresponding public policy about same-gender relationships.

We in the ELCA recognize that many of our sisters and brothers in same-gender relationships sincerely desire the support of other Christians for living faithfully in all aspects of their lives, including their sexual fidelity.** In response, we have drawn deeply on our Lutheran theological heritage and Scripture. T**his has led, however, to differing and conscience-bound understandings about the place of such relationships within the Christian community. We have come to various conclusions concerning how to regard lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships, including whether and how to recognize publicly their lifelong commitments.

While Lutherans hold various convictions regarding lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships, this church is united on many critical issues.24 It opposes all forms of verbal or physical harassment and assault based on sexual orientation. It supports legislation and policies to protect civil rights and to prohibit discrimination in housing, employment, and public services. It has called upon congregations and members to welcome, care for, and support same-gender couples and their families and to advocate for their legal protection.

The ELCA recognizes that it has a pastoral responsibility to all children of God. This includes a pastoral responsibility to those who are same-gender in their orientation and to those who are seeking counsel about their sexual self-understanding. All are encouraged to avail themselves of the means of grace and pastoral care.
**
This church also acknowledges that consensus does not exist concerning how to regard same-gender committed relationships,** even after many years of thoughtful, respectful, and faithful study and conversation. We do not have agreement on whether this church should honor these relationships and uplift, shelter, and protect them or on precisely how it is appropriate to do so.

In response, this church draws on the foundational Lutheran understanding that the baptized are called to discern God’s love in service to the neighbor. In our Christian freedom, we therefore seek responsible actions that serve others and do so with humility and deep respect for the conscience-bound beliefs of others. We understand that, in this discernment about ethics and church practice, faithful people can and will come to different conclusions about the meaning of Scripture25 and about what constitutes responsible action. We further believe that this church, on the basis of "the bound conscience,"26 will include these different understandings and practices within its life as it seeks to live out its mission and ministry in the world.

This church recognizes that, with conviction and integrity:

On the basis of conscience-bound belief, some are convinced that same-gender sexual behavior is sinful, contrary to biblical teaching and their understanding of natural law. They believe same-gender sexual behavior carries the grave danger of unrepentant sin. They therefore conclude that the neighbor and the community are best served by calling people in same-gender sexual relationships to repentance for that behavior and to a celibate lifestyle. Such decisions are intended to be accompanied by pastoral response and community support.
 
On the basis of conscience-bound belief, some are convinced that homosexuality and even lifelong, monogamous, homosexual relationships reflect a broken world in which some relationships do not pattern themselves after the creation God intended. While they acknowledge that such relationships may be lived out with mutuality and care, they do not believe that the neighbor or community are best served by publicly recognizing such relationships as traditional marriage.

CONTINUED

 

[Porknpie]

From ELCA.org

CONTINUED

On the basis of conscience-bound belief, some are convinced that the scriptural witness does not address the context of sexual orientation and lifelong loving and committed relationships that we experience today. They believe that the neighbor and community are best served when same-gender relationships are honored and held to high standards and public accountability, but they do not equate these relationships with marriage. They do, however, affirm the need for community support and the role of pastoral care and may wish to surround lifelong, monogamous relationships or covenant unions with prayer.

On the basis of conscience-bound belief, some are convinced that the scriptural witness does not address the context of sexual orientation and committed relationships that we experience today. They believe that the neighbor and community are best served when same-gender relationships are lived out with lifelong and monogamous commitments that are held to the same rigorous standards, sexual ethics, and status as heterosexual marriage. They surround such couples and their lifelong commitments with prayer to live in ways that glorify God, find strength for the challenges that will be faced, and serve others. They believe same-gender couples should avail themselves of social and legal support for themselves, their children, and other dependents and seek the highest legal accountability available for their relationships.

Although at this time this church lacks consensus on this matter, it encourages all people to live out their faith in the local and global community of the baptized with profound respect for the conscience-bound belief of the neighbor. This church calls for mutual respect in relationships and for guidance that seeks the good of each individual and of the community. Regarding our life together as we live with disagreement, the people in this church will continue to accompany one another in study, prayer, discernment, pastoral care, and mutual respect.

My question is “why would consensus matter?”

 

[ndismyhome]

@Porknpie - All I’m saying is that there are people here who are not on board with such a move. Furthermore, the ELCA is not as episcopally structured as we like to portray ourselves. Congregations still have a certain degree of autonomy in conforming or resisting such moves. Is it a mess? Absolutely! Is it problematic? Yes! Is it as monolithic as most people like to portray it? No.

 

[ndismyhome]

@Porknpie - The thrust of the document that you posted is that there are a number of differing stances on it. The national church (in theory) does not pick one of them to promote. Which, in effect, has placed the decision in the hands of the congregations.

 

[aidanbradypop]

@Porknpie - The thrust of the document that you posted is that there are a number of differing stances on it. The national church (in theory) does not pick one of them to promote. Which, in effect, has placed the decision in the hands of the congregations.

spells trouble

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

Interesting articles of a group of Roman Catholic women being ordained priests. In this case the ordaination will be in San Francisco. It is no surprise that the ordination today is to occur at the notorious Ebenezer Lutheran Church.

sophiaintrinity.org/

davidperry.com/maria-eitz-to-be-first-female-catholic-priest-ordained-in-san-francisco.html

I googled it and also found the announcement on the front page of the LA Times:

latimes.com/news/local/la-me-female-priests-20130526,0,2491697,full.story

Any thoughts?

I do not see the point in calling yourself ‘Catholic’ if you do not agree with the church. My mother would disagree - she is Catholic, but doesn’t necessarily ascribe to all of its teachings. She was raised in the Church, and it’s where she feels like she belongs.

I’m not Catholic (although I enjoy the fellowship on this forum) and I respect the opinion of those that do believe there is something inherently wrong with a woman being a spiritual leader, but I respectfully disagree. I just don’t understand why a woman that felt the calling to become a spiritual leader to call herself ‘Catholic’ - when to do so, results in automatic excommunication. If the Church rejects you - why hold on to the title?

 

[steido01]

…there are a number of differing stances on it. The national church (in theory) does not pick one of them to promote. Which, in effect, has placed the decision in the hands of the congregations.

Pastor, thank you for your insight. I understand what you’re saying, but I’m not sure polity is really the issue here. I mean, we have a similar structure in the LCMS that allows for congregational discretion in matters of adiaphora, but if an individual pastor/congregation were to start promoting a practice clearly against Lutheran theology and outside of Christian orthodoxy (denying the Trinity, worshiping pagan goddesses, etc.), action would be swiftly taken to correct the error.

It seems that the bigger issue is that the ELCA, in its pursuit of an ‘inclusive’ theology, has abandoned a firm stance on any doctrinal matter - even the Holy Trinity. What remains common to the communion when there is no agreement in doctrine?

 

[CopticChristian]

In Christ,
ND

Actually, only certain parishes do this. Most of them are opposed or indifferent to the matter. The ELCA, nationally, has deferred the decision to local congregations. Saying that we “celebrate same sex marriage” is a gross overstatement.

I overstated nothing. Evangel stated that he is in a church that celebrates same sex marriage.

I wasn’t aware that sinners were excluded from any Christian church. Many of the monastics in Orthodoxy are people who would be termed, in contemporary speech, homosexual. If you are trying to say something about the ELCA’s policy of allowing parishes to decide if they wish to have pastors in same sex partnerships or not, that is a matter different from “accepting homosexual members”.

I was not aware until I looked into it either. Here is a list. You can decide who and who is not Christian…

Membership denied

Adventist
Southern Baptist Convention
Christian Reformed Church in North America
Church of Nazarene
Jehovah Witness
Old Order Amish
Assemblies of God
Church of God (Cleveland, Tenesee)
United Pentecostal Church International
Evangelical Presbyterian Church
Orthodox Presbyterian Church
Presbyterian Church in America

Homosexuality is dividing the body of Christ as seen in this posting…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=766675

Wrongly Dividing the Body of Christ

 

[ndismyhome]

I overstated nothing. Evangel stated that he is in a church that celebrates same sex marriage.

From your post, I understood you to be saying this of the ELCA as a whole, not a particular parish. My comment was meant to illustrate that this is not the case in the ELCA as a whole at the present time. In particular parishes it may be the case that such unions are celebrated. If Evangel made this claim of the ELCA as a whole, he may be giving the opinion of a goodly number of denominational leaders, but such a position is not official on a national level yet.

I was not aware until I looked into it either. Here is a list. You can decide who and who is not Christian…

I leave such distinguishing to God Almighty. I am neither worthy nor competent to discern such matters absolutely.

I will agree with you that the issue of homosexual unions is a divisive one, and one that has severed much of the already fractured Christian churches.

All that I am asking is that you be charitable with those of us who happen to find ourselves in less than perfect denominations. You seem to be rather angry concerning this present topic. I apologize if I have done something to offend or upset you.

In Christ,
ND

 

[ndismyhome]

Pastor, thank you for your insight. I understand what you’re saying, but I’m not sure polity is really the issue here. I mean, we have a similar structure in the LCMS that allows for congregational discretion in matters of adiaphora, but if an individual pastor/congregation were to start promoting a practice clearly against Lutheran theology and outside of Christian orthodoxy (denying the Trinity, worshiping pagan goddesses, etc.), action would be swiftly taken to correct the error.

It seems that the bigger issue is that the ELCA, in its pursuit of an ‘inclusive’ theology, has abandoned a firm stance on any doctrinal matter - even the Holy Trinity. What remains common to the communion when there is no agreement in doctrine?

I will freely admit that we have our problems, but if we are to judge a whole denomination by the actions of its most extreme parish, would not all American churches seem nuts?

 

[steido01]

I will freely admit that we have our problems, but if we are to judge a whole denomination by the actions of its most extreme parish, would not all American churches seem nuts?

Of course. Christ’s words in Matthew 7:5 remind us that we have our own issues, as well. But we attempt to correct them. I pray that the ELCA may someday do the same.

Peace be with you,

 

[ndismyhome]

Of course. Christ’s words in Matthew 7:5 remind us that we have our own issues, as well. But we attempt to correct them. I pray that the ELCA may someday do the same.

I do as well.

In Christ,
ND

 

[sennincatholic]

Interesting articles of a group of Roman Catholic women being ordained priests.
Any thoughts?

point of correction!
Those women seized to be Roman Catholic the moment they left the church…its impossible for Roman Catholic women to be ordained priests.Either you’re Roman Catholic and accept church teachings or you reject church teachings and Leave the church!

 

[Porknpie]

@Porknpie - The thrust of the document that you posted is that there are a number of differing stances on it. The national church (in theory) does not pick one of them to promote. Which, in effect, has placed the decision in the hands of the congregations.

Hi ND-

I understand the document. The national church should stand for the truth in Christ as handed down through the apostolic faith and not leave faith and morals to individual congregations to decide.

One has to conform to Christ and not try conforming Christ to our personal desires as Christ said he would lead his Church to all truth…

Pork

 

[ndismyhome]

Hi ND-

I understand the document. The national church should stand for the truth in Christ as handed down through the apostolic faith and not leave faith and morals to individual congregations to decide.

One has to conform to Christ and not try conforming Christ to our personal desires as Christ said he would lead his Church to all truth…

Pork

I didn’t realize that conformity to Christ was to topic of discussion. I thought we were discussing what the document said, as you seemed to disagree with my take on in.

In Christ,
ND

 

[ffg]

I find it so interesting how women to priesthood is somehow the sole focus for some (a friend of mine has this ‘women priests or not coming back to the church’ attitude).

Dismissing all the good prayers and works that consecrated women do.

I think in part it’s because we don’t have the sisters living and working in parishes much any more.

Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[MaryT777]

I didn’t realize that conformity to Christ was to topic of discussion. I thought we were discussing what the document said, as you seemed to disagree with my take on in.

In Christ,
ND

I believe this is on topic as the differences as to women ordination are indeed based on how much autonomy an individual parish has to institute doctrine.

Mary.

 

[CopticChristian]

From your post, I understood you to be saying this of the ELCA as a whole, not a particular parish. My comment was meant to illustrate that this is not the case in the ELCA as a whole at the present time. In particular parishes it may be the case that such unions are celebrated. If Evangel made this claim of the ELCA as a whole, he may be giving the opinion of a goodly number of denominational leaders, but such a position is not official on a national level yet.

I leave such distinguishing to God Almighty. I am neither worthy nor competent to discern such matters absolutely.

I will agree with you that the issue of homosexual unions is a divisive one, and one that has severed much of the already fractured Christian churches.

All that I am asking is that you be charitable with those of us who happen to find ourselves in less than perfect denominations. I apologize if I have done something to offend or upset you.

In Christ,
ND

You seem to be rather angry concerning this present topic.

Out of curiousity, how is you believe that you are able to discern anger from any posting?

 

[Porknpie]

I didn’t realize that conformity to Christ was to topic of discussion. I thought we were discussing what the document said, as you seemed to disagree with my take on in.

In Christ,
ND

I’d say that there are parallels between the article topic and women’s ordination. Both involve a lack of conformity to Christ and to his OHCAC.

As I asked, why would concensus matter? Conforming to Christ is conforming to the truth. Christ said the Holy Spirit would lead his Church to all truth. There is 2000 years of clarity on this truth. Consensus has not been an issue…