Catholic woman ordained in Lutheran Church

[guanophore]

Those passages I quoted from Paul and others, were talking about the justified by faith in baptism, i.e. baptised members of the Church. Afterall, in the sense Paul is using division, one has to be baptised to be a member of the Church 1st, before one can be charged with division from the Church…right?

Good point.

 Paul is warning the baptised, don't divide from the Church because those who do and live like that, i.e. remain divided, won't inherit heaven when they die. They are still brothers and sisters in Christ, but as Paul said, if they remain in that sin, they won't be going to heaven when they die.

I am not even sure that it can be said that they are “still brothers and sisters in Christ”. To be “in Christ” necessarily means that one is in right relationship with His One Body, the Church. When the separate, they automatically excommunicate themselves, thereby losing their status of being “in Christ”.

So as you point out What about people born into division? They aren’t personally guilty of division …that is …UNTIL they see ( become knowledgable) that they *ARE *divided from the Church and then do nothing about ending that division…THEN they become guiilty of division.

Yes. The ignorance is no longer invincible.

paragraph 818 which you cite doesn’t deny the following paragraphs

**819 **“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

I would say, though, that most persons in these separated communities do not realize the Source of the graces, and are clueless about their being that call to unity. This is why the ecumenism and evangelization is so important.

iow, scripture and tradition says it’s not okay to just be a good protestant and all will be well. The scriptures were written in by for the Catholic Church. All those wonderful promises mentioned in scripture is a call to be Catholic in the Catholic Church. Apart from which, there is no salvation. Scripture is clear on that.

Yes, but the reason the catechism states that salvation can be obtained through these separated ecclesial communities BECAUSE they are part of the One mystical Body of Jesus Christ, and are somehow (though not visibly) members of the Church. Baptism begins this unity, and following in the faith that they have received continues this unity.

**837 **"Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"

I would even say that a baptized person who does not persevere in charity is joined to the Body more like a paralyzed or “dead” limb, not being able to take his rightful and functional place in the Body, and detracting from the body by being dead weight. It is this condition of the Church militant that prevents her from being more successful in society. The more “dead weight” she has to carry, the more she is slowed in the process of storming the Gates of hell.

 

[guanophore]

The context of that passage is full incorporation in the Catholic Church. Division is a gross sin against charity. Once a person knows, remaining divided has horrible consequences on one's soul.

Yes. I am just saying that we must be careful in making judgments about what people “know” and how they respond to that knowledge. It is a corporate work of mercy to educate and correct, but we cannot know the state of another’s soul.
steve b;10834300:

Again,

If one is born into one of these groups that is divided from the Catholic Church, how are they going to know their situation or the gravity of their situation, unless someone shows them? If I have an opportunity to show someone that reality, and I keep quiet, then I’m not showing charity to THEM. That makes me guilty of sinning against charity.

Indeed. But equally, we can sin against charity in the way we go about showing them. There is no need for it to be derogatory, pejorative, or failing to affirm those works of the Holy Spirit to which they have already responded.

**Re: Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation**

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

This last is the critical point. We cannot know whether a person is “knowingly” refusing to enter. They may be ignorant, they may be unpursuaded, they may be misled. We can work to ameliorate these conditions, but in the end, only God knows their heart, and whether they refused to enter out of disobedience, selfishness, willful denial or some other motive.

 That's why it's important to share the knowledge we have as Catholics with non Catholics.

Amen!

 

[steve_b]

I appreciate your senitment, however in the context of this letter…Paul introduces the topic, ie obedience of Faith…in Romans 1…

True. When Paul 1st mentions faith in Romans 1, he opens Romans with obedience of faith and the last time he mentions faith he ends Romans 16 with obedience of faith. Therefore inbetween these bookends of obedience of faith, so to speak, describes what it means to be obedient to the faith they have received.

I merely focused on Paul’s warning about division & those who divide or have been divided. Division is the result of disobedience to the faith delivered once to the saints. And that fits in with the topic at hand
C:

Here he summarizes, that obedience, as opposed to the Judaizing Christians…that his dialogue from Romans 3-11 is all about…

The Greek word used for division in [Rom 16:17…] is the same Greek word for division used in [Gal 5:19-21] * διχοστασία = dichostasia = dissension / sedition / division** ]* and notice it is condemned as is the person who does it if they remain in that sin. And we can’t miss the point, Paul is talking to and warning the baptised.
C:

and I understand the refernce to Satan however I would suggest that it was the attempt to resurrect the Old Covenant through Circumcision, specifically is the evil spoken of here…

Satan is the one who actively sifts souls away from the truth (the Catholic Church) so in particular, disobedience of faith, and in the case being described, he causes division from the Catholic Church. Division can take on many forms. That’s what Satan does. He sifts he divides. And he is very successful at that. Remember when Jesus said to Peter right after the Last Supper ended, Satan has asked to sift you( plural i.e. all of you apostles) like wheat, but I have prayed for you (singular)Simon, that your faith won’t fail, when you recover after sifting, I want you to strengthen your brothers after they have been sifted. [Lk 22:24…] and we know Satan doesn’t ever stop sifting. So Peter is always needed as well

 

[steve_b]

.
I am not even sure that it can be said that they are “still brothers and sisters in Christ”. To be “in Christ” necessarily means that one is in right relationship with His One Body, the Church. When the separate, they automatically excommunicate themselves, thereby losing their status of being “in Christ”.

Mortal sin certainly means one is not in Christ… But those in mortal sin are still somehow brothers and sisters due to baptism…right?
g:

I would say, though, that most persons in these separated communities do not realize the Source of the graces, and are clueless about their being that call to unity. This is why the ecumenism and evangelization is so important.

That’s why we are obligated to remind them of their history so they see who they ARE, and who they divided from. As soon as they know this they are no longer ignorant of that. To let them think they are okay being Protestant, just be good Protestants, is not ecumenism, it’s the lie and disception of modernism. And that’s not being charitable.
g:

Yes, but the reason the catechism states that salvation ***can ***be obtained through these separated ecclesial communities BECAUSE they are part of the One mystical Body of Jesus Christ, and are somehow (though not visibly) members of the Church. Baptism begins this unity, and following in the faith that they have received continues this unity.

Re: what the CCC says about seperated communities, notice the language used. Maybe an analogy will help

If I say to you, tommorrow it ***can ***or may rain,

• that doesn’t mean it will rain tomorrow,
• it doesn’t mean rain is even probable.
• It might only be a remote possibility of rain.
• Then again if tommorrow comes and goes and there is no rain, I didn’t speak wrongly. Afterall, it can/may rain tomorrow, is a very weak statement about rain

Re: baptism , yes it is a beginning that must be followed through with…a call to Catholic unity. Protestantism is the continuation of their division and disunity from Our Lord’s Church, the Catholic Church. They need to know that. They can’t wiggle from that. We show them, and God’s grace disposes them of this truth.

 

[steve_b]

Yes. I am just saying that we must be careful in making judgments about what people “know” and how they respond to that knowledge. It is a corporate work of mercy to educate and correct, but we cannot know the state of another’s soul.

agreed
g:

Indeed. But equally, we can sin against charity in the way we go about showing them. There is no need for it to be derogatory, pejorative, or failing to affirm those works of the Holy Spirit to which they have already responded.

That’s why I quote alot.
g:

This last is the critical point. We cannot know whether a person is “knowingly” refusing to enter. They may be ignorant, they may be unpursuaded, they may be misled. We can work to ameliorate these conditions, but in the end, only God knows their heart, and whether they refused to enter out of disobedience, selfishness, willful denial or some other motive.

agreed

Our part is to present the evidence, the HS disposes them to accept it. At that point they either accept or reject it.

 

[Nicea325]

Interesting articles of a group of Roman Catholic women being ordained priests. In this case the ordaination will be in San Francisco. It is no surprise that the ordination today is to occur at the notorious Ebenezer Lutheran Church.

sophiaintrinity.org/

davidperry.com/maria-eitz-to-be-first-female-catholic-priest-ordained-in-san-francisco.html

I googled it and also found the announcement on the front page of the LA Times:

latimes.com/news/local/la-me-female-priests-20130526,0,2491697,full.story

Any thoughts?

I’ll say it simply: NOT VALID! No different than the military, either one is a commissioned officer or not…period!

 

[mayogirl25]

Interesting articles of a group of Roman Catholic women being ordained priests. In this case the ordaination will be in San Francisco. It is no surprise that the ordination today is to occur at the notorious Ebenezer Lutheran Church.

sophiaintrinity.org/

davidperry.com/maria-eitz-to-be-first-female-catholic-priest-ordained-in-san-francisco.html

I googled it and also found the announcement on the front page of the LA Times:

latimes.com/news/local/la-me-female-priests-20130526,0,2491697,full.story

Any thoughts?

Well-meaning but terribly misguided women who will now be left to flounder and outside of the real Church. Sad.

 

[guanophore]

Well-meaning but terribly misguided women who will now be left to flounder and outside of the real Church. Sad.

How are they called? Do they want to be called “father”? “Mother”? Pastor maybe…

 

[ltwin]

Any thoughts?

Aren’t Lutheran in the ELCA supposed to be all about “ecumenism” and “respect”? How non-ecumenical and disrespectful can you be to allow your church to be the place of a fake Catholic ordination?

I am someone who believes in women’s ordination (though I don’t believe goddess worship like HerChurch does), but I also believe that the Catholic Church does not need the Lutherans to tell them who they can or cannot call priests.

If I were in charge of this Lutheran church, I would have refused to host such an event knowing that these women were rebelling against the rules of their own church.To me, its just disrespectful.

 

[JonNC]

Aren’t Lutheran in the ELCA supposed to be all about “ecumenism” and “respect”? How non-ecumenical and disrespectful can you be to allow your church to be the place of a fake Catholic ordination?

I am someone who believes in women’s ordination (though I don’t believe goddess worship like HerChurch does), but I also believe that the Catholic Church does not need the Lutherans to tell them who they can or cannot call priests.

If I were in charge of this Lutheran church, I would have refused to host such an event knowing that these women were rebelling against the rules of their own church.To me, its just disrespectful.

This is avert interesting take. Does this event Catholic Church authority over Catholics? Is this parish undermining ecumenism?

 

[CopticChristian]

Aren’t Lutheran in the ELCA supposed to be all about “ecumenism” and “respect”? How non-ecumenical and disrespectful can you be to allow your church to be the place of a fake Catholic ordination?

I am someone who believes in women’s ordination (though I don’t believe goddess worship like HerChurch does), but I also believe that the Catholic Church does not need the Lutherans to tell them who they can or cannot call priests.

If I were in charge of this Lutheran church, I would have refused to host such an event knowing that these women were rebelling against the rules of their own church.To me, its just disrespectful.

You go Bro Itwin…

 

[guanophore]

You go Bro Itwin…

I will add my AMEN to that!

Good to see you posting again Itwin, I got worried there for a spell.

 

[MaryT777]

Aren’t Lutheran in the ELCA supposed to be all about “ecumenism” and “respect”? How non-ecumenical and disrespectful can you be to allow your church to be the place of a fake Catholic ordination?

I am someone who believes in women’s ordination (though I don’t believe goddess worship like HerChurch does), but I also believe that the Catholic Church does not need the Lutherans to tell them who they can or cannot call priests.

If I were in charge of this Lutheran church, I would have refused to host such an event knowing that these women were rebelling against the rules of their own church.To me, its just disrespectful.

Good point.

 

[hosemonkey]

Here’s the bishop involved at Trinity Lutheran church in Ohio last week: communityofstbridget.org/

"Bishop William Manseau, SBM, MA, D.Min., D.Min
Bishop at Large, St. Barnabas Mission

William Joseph Manseau was ordained as a Sts. Peter and Paul Catholic Prelature bishop in the Roman Catholic Church on June 11, 2011 in the St. Barnabas Chapel at the Cathedral of St. Anthony in Detroit, MI for service in the International Society of the Apostles, Sts. Peter, Thomas and Mary Magdalene and its Vicariate of the Good Shepherd, the St. Barnabas Mission and the Ecumenical Catholic Diocese of America.

He is a married Priest of the Archdiocese of Boston, ordained in 1961 by Richard Cardinal Cushing and married in 1969, who has served as President and New England Regional Vice President for the Society of Priests for a Free Ministry; and as President, Chairperson and Representative/Director at Large for the Federation of Christian Ministries, a position he holds currently. He has served as Chair of the FCM Committee on Specialized Ministries and its Religious Endorsing Body agent. He is Co-Chair of the FCM Roman Catholic Faith Community Council. He is Chair of the FCM Committee for Commissioning. He represents the FCM/RCFCC in the National Catholic Ministries Alliance. He serves on the Executive Board of the International Federation for a Renewed Catholic Ministry. He is Dean of the Global Ministries University M. Div. Program. He also has served as CORPUS Treasurer and President and is Chair of CORPUS New England.

A State of New Hampshire Licensed Pastoral Psychotherapist, he founded in 1981 and directs the Emmaus Institute, Inc. and Emmaus Institute Counseling Services which is currently based in Nashua, NH. He directs the Emmaus Institute’s National Resigned Priests’ Pensions Advocacy Program on behalf of CORPUS. He is a past President of the Nashua Area Interfaith Council and the N.H. Citizens United for the Rehabilitation of Errants. He has served on the Board of Directors for the National Alliance on Mental Illness for NH.

He is a Fellow in the American Association of Pastoral Counselors and has served as Northeast Region Chair of Legal and Legislative Concerns and currently chairs its Institutional Accreditation Committee. He served as the President of the Massachusetts Association of Pastoral Counselors and led that association’s unsuccessful efforts to obtain state licensure for pastoral counselors. He is the President of the New Hampshire Pastoral Psychotherapists Association and has served as its Treasurer.

William Manseau is the President of the International Society of the Apostles, Sts. Peter, Thomas and Mary Magdalene and Vicar Apostolic of the International Catholic Apostolic Vicariate of the Good Shepherd. He is Vicar Apostolic and Secretary for the St. Barnabas Mission of the Ecumenical Catholic Diocese of America and is the author of the proposal for an Emmaus Catholic Covenanting Communities network. As a worker priest from 1969 to 1984 he worked with local, regional and national community based substance abuse, mental health and comprehensive primary care related organizations in mid-size and major urban settings. He holds an MA and an M.Div. equivalent from St. John Seminary, Brighton, MA (1961) and doctorates in social and personal transformational ministry from Chicago Theological Seminary (1974) and Andover Newton Theological School (1989). He and his wife, Mary, reside in Tewksbury, MA and are the parents of three adult children and two granddaughters. Their son, Peter, is the author of Vows, the Story of a Priest, a Nun and Their Son, 2005, Free Press. Email: wmanseau@emmausinstituteinc.org"

No comment

So your point is:
This man is the Grand High Poobah of bogus “Bishops”? And what is the “Ecumenical Catholic Diocese of America”? Looks like merely another protestant “denomination” to me. Titles and degrees do not confer legitimacy, if so, I would be the King of Denmark by virtue of my fondness for sweet pastry. As phony as a “womanpriest.”

 

[steve_b]

So your point is:
This man is the Grand High Poobah of bogus “Bishops”? And what is the “Ecumenical Catholic Diocese of America”? Looks like merely another protestant “denomination” to me. Titles and degrees do not confer legitimacy, if so, I would be the King of Denmark by virtue of my fondness for sweet pastry. As phony as a “womanpriest.”

good one.

 

[MaryT777]

So your point is:
This man is the Grand High Poobah of bogus “Bishops”? And what is the “Ecumenical Catholic Diocese of America”? Looks like merely another protestant “denomination” to me. Titles and degrees do not confer legitimacy, if so, I would be the King of Denmark by virtue of my fondness for sweet pastry. As phony as a “womanpriest.”

 

[hosemonkey]

good one.

Thank you. If this was the so-called “bishop” that “ordained” these poor deluded women, one can readily see that any actions performed by this man are bogus. Sometimes, tracing the geneology of apostolic succession is difficult when dealing with Old Catholics, Thuc line “bishops” etc. BUT, the Catholic Church and the Church alone, has the right and the mission of arbitrating who is legitimate and who is bogus. If the Church says that “it has no power nor authority to ordain women” then it don’t happen, even if Chicken Little says that “the Sky is Falling!” Anything else is delusional middle-aged ladies with post-menopausal dreams of glory. And, if you view photos of these alleged “ordinations”, you notice that the vast majority of attendees are elderly liberal relics of the 60s and 70s, I have seen no young people with families, at all. I see the whole sad movement dying by attrition.

 

[CarolNoel]

Good one hosemonkey. Haven’t seen you for awhile.

 

[Nicea325]

Thank you. If this was the so-called “bishop” that “ordained” these poor deluded women, one can readily see that any actions performed by this man are bogus. Sometimes, tracing the geneology of apostolic succession is difficult when dealing with Old Catholics, Thuc line “bishops” etc. BUT, the Catholic Church and the Church alone, has the right and the mission of arbitrating who is legitimate and who is bogus. If the Church says that “it has no power nor authority to ordain women” then it don’t happen, even if Chicken Little says that “the Sky is Falling!” Anything else is delusional middle-aged ladies with post-menopausal dreams of glory. And, if you view photos of these alleged “ordinations”, you notice that the vast majority of attendees are elderly liberal relics of the 60s and 70s, I have seen no young people with families, at all. I see the whole sad movement dying by attrition.

Exactly! Does not matter you supposedly ordained these women, it is all illicit.

 

[GKC]

Exactly! Does not matter you supposedly ordained these women, it is all illicit.

Surely it’s invalid.

GKC