Catholic Worship of Mary

  • Thread starter Thread starter PNRC
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
cheddarsox:
The first time I got that “this is so wrong” feeling was at my church’s May crowning event. A life sized statue of the Virgin was carried to the front of the church. A litany of the names and titles of the Virgin was read, songs were sung, a court of virgins approached the statue and threw themselves face down at its feet.They led the assemblage in this prayer catholic-forum.com/saints/pray0505.htm
Then one of the virgins crowned the statue amid song and tears from the assembledge.

If I saw anyone behave this way toward anything, ever, excepting the creator, I would consider it misplaced worship.

That is what it is called when people behave such toward rock stars, their lovers, their houses, cars etc. They have made an idol out of something. I feel that this type of ritual makes an idol out of Mary.
The normal expression of devotion to Mary embarrasses no one who understands the motive. Some (and I include some Catholics among these) do not generally approach Mary with personal love and affection; their general approach to the faith is ideological, cool, calculating, critical reasoning. We won’t find faithful Catholics, though, restraining their normal expressions of devotion in order to try to appease those who make their own exhibition of a certain diminished Christian expression of the human (a certain de-Incarnationizing) which all Protestant cultures (ours being the remains of such) suffer from. What they see as “worship” of Mary is in fact quite normal cultural expressions of love. People are honoring Mary for her maternal love universal in the order of Grace by the grace given to her; the people in their devotion manifest the spiritual beauty of Mary’s love and their own toward her.

The faithful know Mary is not a statue, just as they know she is not God! They are not confused. The palpability of the statue impresses upon their consciousness the maternal presence through grace of Mary’s influence in their home or parish, similarly to having a relic of a Saint. Awareness of the Blessed Mother is more intense and changes the pattern of family and parochial devotion and practice. It is a sacramental presence. Because they (we) don’t look at the statue as the reality but the person represented, she becomes more present to them (us). Catholics who are simply expressing their love for the Blessed Virgin shouldn’t be inhibited. That’s what the some people don’t get – the love that’s going on - unless they’re non-judgmental and perceptive.

The reason for the “scandal” of popular religious culture is the judgmental, self-righteous looking down the nose of those who do not accept fully the humanity graced within the Church. The unselfconscious expression of affection and piety is to be accepted rather than sanitized, and rather directed than suppressed by the clergy. (And we mustn’t be like an immigrant’s child embarrassed by the foreignness of his parents’ speech and ways.)

Those who take scandal at this humanity simply do not sufficiently appreciate the Incarnation and should be challenged in their assumptions of criticism, for they are criticizing the most natural and human expression of the Incarnation in a love for the human contributor to the Divine Mystery: Mary, God’s Mother, and ours also, by the same Mystery, since she is Mother of the whole Christ. The expression of love for her will be different for an English Catholic than for a Filipino; different for a German Catholic than for a Mexican.

One forms one’s sense of appropriateness in these matters according to the culture in which one is reared. The living forms of piety completely incarnating Catholic Faith in a culture are what one must accept if one is to really practically commune in the Catholic Church. I read of Cdl. Newman having been asked if he had read St. Alphonsus Liguori’s The Glories of Mary. He said no and had no intention of reading it as his sensibility to Mary was thoroughly English, by which he meant understated. He was of course tolerant of other expressions for others, like the Italian, but not for himself. He would only call them inappropriate for himself. He would never have thought them inappropriate as such.
 
Hi brothers and sisters in Christ,

In am a protestant who is being attracted to many aspects of Catholicism.

I have three more questions to ask about Mary:
  1. For the life of me, I can’t understand this concept of Mary being MY mother. I know she is Jesus’ mother and deserves much honor for being an obedient servant of God. I am certain she has a special place in heaven. But Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ and I don’t see how this translates into some kind of maternal relationship with me. I have been a Christian for close to 30 years and I have never missed a maternal relationship; Jesus works just fine for me! Any comments?
  2. Can one become a Catholic without believing that Mary is their mother?
  3. What is this “co-redemptress” thing about?
Thanks for any responses and God bless each and every one of you.
 
Just a comment on the Pope Praying to Mary when he got shot. When I was 7 years old and I hurt my neck diving into the pool the very first person I cried out for was my mother. The reason I did that was so that she could comfort me in the time of need. I take it, the Pope may have been doing the same thing. Reaching for the comforting hand of our Holy Mother.

Just my opinion on it, but makes perfect sense to me.
 
Hi Mathew 25,
Welcome to the forums!

I am sure you will get some great answers to your questions.

As far as your question regarding Mary being your mother, as there is no biological connection between you, I think perhaps one possible answer to this is that she is your mother the same way I am your brother in Christ.

Does that help?

God Bless you in your journey,
VC
 
Matthew 25:
Hi brothers and sisters in Christ,

In am a protestant who is being attracted to many aspects of Catholicism.

I have three more questions to ask about Mary:
  1. For the life of me, I can’t understand this concept of Mary being MY mother. I know she is Jesus’ mother and deserves much honor for being an obedient servant of God. I am certain she has a special place in heaven. But Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ and I don’t see how this translates into some kind of maternal relationship with me. I have been a Christian for close to 30 years and I have never missed a maternal relationship; Jesus works just fine for me! Any comments?
  2. Can one become a Catholic without believing that Mary is their mother?
  3. What is this “co-redemptress” thing about?
Thanks for any responses and God bless each and every one of you.
Matt! great questions!

When Jesus said to John, “Behold your Mother” Catholics believe that He was symbolically giving her to all of us to be Our Mother. Also, because she is the New Eve, the New Ark of the Covenant as foretold in the Old Testament, she is the Mother of us all.

Why would one NOT want to have the Holy Mother of God be their mother too? As for what is required to become a Catholic, this link should help you with your questions:

catholic.com/library/How_to_Become_a_Catholic.asp

The use of the word ‘co-redemptress’ was very confusing to me at first as well - one of the problems with having a Pope who has about four BAZILLION degrees in theology and philosophy is that he can use language properly, subtly and with such power. the use of ‘co’ is done in the same way you use ‘with’…and what JPII wrote about is that without Mary to carry the Word Incarnate, the incredible Mystery of God becoming man could not have happenned, and in that way she becomes the co-redemptress…by her submitting to the Will of God, she becomes a intricate part of the redemption process. In much the same way that St. Paul speaks of our suffering uniting with Christ’s and adding to it - not because His act of dying for me was incomplete, but because by my uniting my daily suffering with His I complete the redemption process for others and so become a part of the plan.

Does that make sense, or have I simply added to the confusion?
 
Matthew 25:
Hi brothers and sisters in Christ,

In am a protestant who is being attracted to many aspects of Catholicism.

I have three more questions to ask about Mary:
  1. For the life of me, I can’t understand this concept of Mary being MY mother. I know she is Jesus’ mother and deserves much honor for being an obedient servant of God. I am certain she has a special place in heaven. But Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ and I don’t see how this translates into some kind of maternal relationship with me. I have been a Christian for close to 30 years and I have never missed a maternal relationship; Jesus works just fine for me! Any comments?
    This is a huge topic, but I am not going to get into any of the “types” or mysticism or anything like that. A short answer: Christ calls us all brothers and sisters (making Mary our mother), also at the foot of the cross Christ gave Mary to John (in all actuality He gave her to all of us.)
  2. Can one become a Catholic without believing that Mary is their mother? Yes, you just can’t deny that she is. 😉
  3. What is this “co-redemptress” thing about? Also a big topic. Basically, he “yes” to God (fiat) brought our Saviour into the world. Basically.
Thanks for any responses and God bless each and every one of you.
 
I was taught to take my faith and the faith of the church seriously, and when I did, I was told I was taking it too seriously. I was pursuing a religious vocation. And found no encouragment from those around me.
I did not leave the church on a whim. I left after years of prayer and frustration and hurt. I hope that the Blessed Virgin cried at least one tear, I cried many.
Cheddarsox

I don’t really understand. You say you took yourfaith and the faith of the church seriously, yet you left over a misunderstanding? So you left for something that is completey at odds with Christianity. It has been explained several times about what Our Mother Mary means to Catholics and how we have devotions to her, i.e. rosaries, novenas, litanies, feasts, etc. These take nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, from Our Lord. Yet, when you saw something that you perceived was idol worship, you ran away. Did you ever think, since you say you took your faith seriously, to ask someone, the priest, or bishop to explain these observations to you and for you to tell them how “you” felt”? As LSK said, there is an obligation to remain strong. Did you ever study some of the lives of the saints? Some were persecuted by some of the church officials (St. Joan of Arc), but did she leave the Church? No, because she knew that the CC was the Church that Jesus founded. St. Francis was told by God to “repair the church”. This didn’t meet with much approval. As a matter of fact Pope Innocent III wound up throwing St. Francis out. Did St. Francis leave the church? No, he remained. Heck, I myself have seen many abuses in the Church, but I know that the CC is the Church that Jesus founded. Again, LSK mentioned that the church is full of sinners. We are all sinners. Maybe some of those people you saw went overboard in your opinion, but we can’t judge what is in their heart. And as was mentioned by TantumErgo, there is nothing wrong with having a crowning of Mary. There is nothing wrong with feasts held for Mary. As a matter of fact, the greatest feasts for Mary are celebrated with a Mass. And the Mass is strictly about Jesus.
There is nothing wrong with the Pope praying to Mary, because we all know that those prayers are going straight to Jesus.
Having a religious vocation is nothing easy. God will sometimes place obstacles in our paths to see if we really are serious. If we have some small stumbling block and then walk away when we find no encouragement from those around us, then that vocation was never really there. We look to God for encouragement. If God wants somebody to enter a religious order, He will provide the means to overcome obstacles. We have to put our Trust in Providence, and not look too much for encouragement from the world.
Code:
 BTW consecrations to Mary are not wrong either. When two people give themselves to each other in marriage, they give 100% of themselves. Does that mean that they are putting Jesus aside? No. See this site for a fuller explanation about what Consecration to Mary means.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/CONSIMHE.HTM

After all, we can use Mary as our teacher. Wasn’t she Jesus’ primary teacher?
And I’m sure that Mary cried many, not just one, tears when you left the Church. Hurry back to the CC, Jesus and Mary are waiting with open arms.

Oh, and nbr 1 on pantheism, means that God and the universe are one. The tree is God, the mountain, is God, a star is God, a bunny rabbit is God so nbr 2 follows nbr 1.
 
40.png
cheddarsox:
I did not leave the church on a whim. I left after years of prayer and frustration and hurt. I hope that the Blessed Virgin cried at least one tear,…
Why would you* hope* that the Mother of God would cry??
 
Hello,

If Mary’s role should be so important to Christians, then why is she not mentioned in any of the post-Four Gospel writings in the Bible?

Why does the Apostle Paul not mention her? In fact, Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:5: “For there is one God and ONE mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus.” If Paul believed Catholic doctrine that Mary was a mediator as well, then why didn’t he say so?

Why is there no record in the Bible what happened to Mary after the Resurrection of Christ?

Inquiring minds want to know (smile).
Be blessed.
 
Hi folks,

I know I am likely going to get blasted for this, but I read Cheddersox’s postings just now and I think she makes some very valid points. Though, friend, I hope you will return to Jesus Christ and see that He is the Son of God who loves you.

My personal philosophy is that to believe in everything (pantheism, New Age, etc…) is to believe in nothing.

But I agree with you, I think most Catholics are confused about the role of Mary among their bretheren in the Church.

I don’t know how all of this works, but I think the Pope needs to hold another Vatican counsel and prayerfully construct solid doctrine about Mary’s role in the Church. Then, instruct bishops and priests to teach ONLY that doctrine and to preach and teach against Mary worship.

Not long ago, I attended a meeting of the charismatic Catholic group in my area. A nun was leading worship with voice and guitar and I was playing recorder and irish flute. We were having a beautiful time together seated in a circle on folding chairs, just worshipping Jesus - who is worthy of all praise and honor and glory.

Then, one of the people sitting in the circle piped up: “We need to worship Mary! Do you have any songs so that we can worship Mary?”

With that, it felt like cold water had been dropped out of the heavens on the time of worship and it dissolved.

Fact is, I have been researching this for years and talking to a great variety of Catholics and I find that yes, Mary IS worshipped by a great many Catholics.

Why do we have a college in Indiana called “Marian” College? Why not “Jesus College.” Why are there churches called “Our Lady of Cincinnati” instead of “Our Saviour Jesus of Cincinnati,” etc.

Yes, Cheddersox, I do agree with you. But I hope you will find your way back to God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Be blessed!
 
Matthew 25:
Hi folks,

I know I am likely going to get blasted for this, but I read Cheddersox’s postings just now and I think she makes some very valid points. Though, friend, I hope you will return to Jesus Christ and see that He is the Son of God who loves you.
Be blessed!
Yes, Matthew, I’m sure you’ll be blasted, but I won’t do it.

I guess no amount of Catholic theology, culture, apologetics and discussion can help you understand the obvious maternal and spiritual rewards Mary can bring through her intercession. Let it be that for now. 🙂

God Bless:)
 
40.png
TobyLue:
Cheddarsox

I don’t really understand. You say you took yourfaith and the faith of the church seriously, yet you left over a misunderstanding?
So you left for something that is completey at odds with Christianity. Yet, when you saw something that you perceived was idol worship, you ran away. Did you ever think, since you say you took your faith seriously, to ask someone, the priest, or bishop to explain these observations to you and for you to tell them how “you” felt”? As LSK said, there is an obligation to remain strong. Did you ever study some of the lives of the saints?
There is nothing wrong with the Pope praying to Mary, because we all know that those prayers are going straight to Jesus.
Having a religious vocation is nothing easy. God will sometimes place obstacles in our paths to see if we really are serious. If we have some small stumbling block and then walk away when we find no encouragement from those around us, then that vocation was never really there. We look to God for encouragement. If God wants somebody to enter a religious order, He will provide the means to overcome obstacles. We have to put our Trust in Providence, and not look too much for encouragement from the world.

After all, we can use Mary as our teacher. Wasn’t she Jesus’ primary teacher?
And I’m sure that Mary cried many, not just one, tears when you left the Church. Hurry back to the CC, Jesus and Mary are waiting with open arms.

Oh, and nbr 1 on pantheism, means that God and the universe are one. The tree is God, the mountain, is God, a star is God, a bunny rabbit is God so nbr 2 follows nbr 1.
I stated I did bring this subject up and it was laughed off by priests.(the nuns were better at addressing this issue) I stated that I left the church only after many years of prayer, frustration etc. That is hardly running away over a misunderstanding. Nor was this one incident the sole cause of my leaving the church.It is merely the topic of this thread (started by someone other than me)

I think you are right, if God had wanted me to enter a religious order, He would have provided a way to overcome the obstacles, He did not. So I accept that where I am now is the will of the divine. I am sure the divine hand was at work.

I did read and study the lives of several saints and mystics, both while a Catholic and since. I find them very illuminating.

It was thoughtful of you to provide a dictionary definition of my faith for me, and to provide an interpretation as well. Unfortunately, the definition and your interpretation do little to explain the nature of pantheism. Like Catholicism, it is a complex and mystical faith and a short dictionary entry does not do it justice. For most Christians “God” capitol G, refers to the Judeo-Christian God, and it is certainly absurd to equate that being with a tree or bunny rabbit.

Pantheist understanding explains things differently, and, like Catholicism is often not understood by those who are not part of the faith.

cheddar
 
E.E.N.S.:
Why would you* hope* that the Mother of God would cry??
I would hope she cared enough for me to cry over me leaving the faith, it was a very sad and painful experience for me, and I would like to believe that she cared enough to shed a tear on my behalf.

cheddar
 
40.png
Tonks40:
Yes, Matthew, I’m sure you’ll be blasted, but I won’t do it.

I guess no amount of Catholic theology, culture, apologetics and discussion can help you understand the obvious maternal and spiritual rewards Mary can bring through her intercession. Let it be that for now. 🙂

God Bless:)
I did not see Matthew,or others, denying that there are rewards associated with Mary’s intercession. To point out a wrong that is being done in her name, is not to dishonor her, or belittle her.

A person can be devoted to Mary, and still saddened, perhaps more saddened, to see her role distorted and misrepresented.

Speaking out against distorted practices, is not the same as speaking out agaist the Virgin herself.

cheddar
 
40.png
cheddarsox:
I would hope she cared enough for me to cry over me leaving the faith, it was a very sad and painful experience for me, and I would like to believe that she cared enough to shed a tear on my behalf.

cheddar
I see two things questionable with your statement:
  1. though I understand what you are trying to say, I still think it is somewhat inappropriate to want the Blessed Virgin Mary to cry;
and 2) you are admitting that you left THE Faith…why in the world would you leave THE Faith? (And if you didn’t believe it to be THE Faith, then why would you or the Blessed Virgin Mary care?)

These are honest concerns that I have - I am not trying to be argumentative.
 
Matthew 25:
Then, one of the people sitting in the circle piped up: “We need to worship Mary! Do you have any songs so that we can worship Mary?”
That is very sad indeed, and I hope you corrected this person (in a loving manner of course.)
Matthew 25:
Why do we have a college in Indiana called “Marian” College? Why not “Jesus College.” Why are there churches called “Our Lady of Cincinnati” instead of “Our Saviour Jesus of Cincinnati,” etc.
Why do you have a problem with this? It in no way detracts from Jesus. Why only mention the “Mary” ones? Do you also have a problem with the thousands of other schools, hospitals, libraries, churches, etc. that are named after different saint and/or Mary? Why?

This is just a personal opinion of mine, but I especially like it when a church is named after Mary, in fact I find it quite appropriate considering that inside the church is Jesus Himself (it reminds me of how He was in Mary’s womb for 9 months.)

Another thing, I could be considered to be very “Marian” as I have more of a devotion to Mary than do most Catholics, and I can guarantee you that I am nowhere close to worshipping her, in fact I would go so far as to say that many of those who do (though I don’t know of any) probably have less of a devotion to her than I do, or perhaps they just misunderstand and have an (name removed by moderator)roper devotion.

If there is a problem with Marian worship in your area, perhaps it would be a good idea for you to band together with some people and start the antithesis to it (in a charitble, educating way of course), but I would probably say that you yourself need to do some serious study on proper Marian devotion first, don’t you think?

🙂
 
Fact is, I have been researching this for years and talking to a great variety of Catholics and I find that yes, Mary IS worshipped by a great many Catholics.
I know hundreds of people who practice Marian devotion and not one worships her. What percentage is “great many” to you? My percentage is quite low!
Why do we have a college in Indiana called “Marian” College? Why not “Jesus College.” Why are there churches called “Our Lady of Cincinnati” instead of “Our Saviour Jesus of Cincinnati,” etc.
Think of all the Catholic High Schools and Colleges in teh US? Are you suggesting they all be named after Jesus? If all were, there would be great confusion. Heck, why don’t we all name our boys Jesus since they are dedicated to Christ at Baptism?

Additionally, it is at least the Catholic tradition as I understand it to not name schools, hospitals, etc. after the living. Using this line of thinking, since Jesus is Risen, eternally alive" and comes alive to us in the Eucharist it might also be an indication of how few schools and universities are named after Christ. Frankly, I can’t think of one and this might be the reason.
 
40.png
Orionthehunter:
Additionally, it is at least the Catholic tradition as I understand it to not name schools, hospitals, etc. after the living. Using this line of thinking, since Jesus is Risen, eternally alive" and comes alive to us in the Eucharist it might also be an indication of how few schools and universities are named after Christ. Frankly, I can’t think of one and this might be the reason.
Mary and the saints are alive as well. 😉
 
Matthew 25:
Not long ago, I attended a meeting of the charismatic Catholic group in my area. A nun was leading worship with voice and guitar and I was playing recorder and irish flute. We were having a beautiful time together seated in a circle on folding chairs, just worshipping Jesus - who is worthy of all praise and honor and glory.

Then, one of the people sitting in the circle piped up: “We need to worship Mary! Do you have any songs so that we can worship Mary?”

With that, it felt like cold water had been dropped out of the heavens on the time of worship and it dissolved.
But wait, if Catholics DO worship Mary, wouldn’t the crowd have EMBRACED the suggestion?

Are you suggesting that the person asking for “Mary worship” just didn’t get the memo? Something like: “pipe down about the whole Mary worship thing…we’re starting to get in trouble with Evangelicals!”

:rolleyes:
 
Cheddarsox
Code:
 As you stated, YOU left THE Faith over a misunderstanding and some other issues and went over to pantheism. Whichever way you want to define it, pantheism it is at odds with Christianity. (pan=everything, theos=God) You cannot sweeten it up and try to cover up its meaning.
So I accept that where I am now is the will of the divine. I am sure the divine hand was at work.
So, yes maybe God didn’t want you to enter a religious order, but to say that it was His will for you to leave The Faith, The Church that He founded to something that is against Him, is not what you say “the divine hand at work” You said it is the “will of the divine”. Which divine are you talking about? Certainly not Jesus Christ, God Himself? So you say that God wants you out of His Church!?

I don’t equate God with being a tree, or a bunny rabbit. That’s what pantheism equates God with, not Judeo-Christian teachings. When the church condemns pantheism or other false religions, or heresies, it is because She has studied it and experienced it for years, and at times for centuries and knows the dangers of all this to human soul. She cares for Her children and warns them about the dangers. To say the Our Almighty Father, who sent His Son to die for our sins and His Son who said “…upon this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH…” wills somebody to be outside His Church is a terrible, terrible, tragedy.

1 Cor 15:58 “Never give in then, my dear brothers, never admit defeat; keep on working at the Lord’s work always, knowing that, in the Lord, you cannot be laboring in vain.”
See[ this](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11447b.htm) on pantheism..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top