Catholic Worship of Mary

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PNRC:
And what of the countless Ex-catholics I have run into that say that there was Mary Worship as a pratice and (i quess) unwritten dogma?
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Would you ask the Palestinians what the Israelies practice and expect the truth? Would you ask Benedict Arnold what the Americans practice and expect the truth?

I say again, you poor man! 😦
 
"God chose her to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces, so that all his graces and gifts pass through her hands. Such is the power that she has received from him that, according to St Bernardine, she gives the graces of the eternal Father, the virtues of Jesus Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to whom she wills, as and when she wills, and as much as she wills…
"We must never go to our Lord except through Mary, using her intercession and good standing with him. We must never be without her when praying to Jesus…
“Beware, chosen soul, of thinking that it is more perfect to direct your work and intention straight to Jesus or straight to God. Without Mary, your work and your intention will be of little value. But if you go to God through Mary, your work will become Mary’s work, and consequently will be most noble and most worthy of God…” St. Louis Marie de Montfort, in The Secret of Mary, #10, 48, 50.
ewtn.com/library/Montfort/SECRET.HTM
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“…we only have access to the Father by means of the Son, who is the Mediator of justice, so we only have access to the Son by means of the Mother, who is mediator of grace, and who obtains for us, by her intercession, the gifts which Jesus Christ has merited for us…you cannot come to God except by means of Jesus Christ, nor can you come to Christ except by means of his Mother.” St. Alphonsus Ligouri, The Great Means of Salvation and of Perfection (The Necessity and Power of Prayer), Chapter 1, The Necessity of Prayer, Section 4 “The Intercession of the Blessed Virgin”.
ourladyswarriors.org/prayer/mustpray.htm
“With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother…Mary is this glorious intermediary…” Pope Leo XIII, in Octobri Mense (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 22, 1891, # 4.
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro1.htm
Only Through Mary can we go to Jesus… From a Pope.
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“As you were not worthy that anything divine should be given to you, all graces were given to Mary so that you might receive through her all graces you would not otherwise receive…This is the will of God who willed that we should have all things through Mary. If then, we possess any hope or grace or gift of salvation, let us acknowledge that it comes to us through her.” St. Bernard (Quoted by St. Louis de Montfort in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #42.
ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM.
“All the gifts, graces, virtues of the Holy Spirit are distributed by the hands of Mary, to whom she wills, when she wills, as she wills, and in the measure she wills.” St. Bernardine (Quoted by St. Louis de Montfort in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #42.
ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM.
“If it is true to say that Mary is, in a sense, mistress of Wisdom incarnate, what control must she have over all the graces and gifts of God, and what freedom must she enjoy in giving them to whom she chooses. The Fathers of the Church tell us that Mary is an immense ocean of all the perfections of God, the great storehouse of all his possessions, the inexhaustible treasury of the Lord, as well as the treasurer and dispenser of all his gifts. Because God gave her his Son, it is his will that we should receive all gifts through her, and that no heavenly gift should come down upon earth without passing through her as through a channel. Of her fullness we have all received, and any grace or hope of salvation we may possess is a gift which comes to us from God through Mary. So truly is she mistress of God’s possessions that she gives to whom she wills, all the graces of God, all the virtues of Jesus Christ, all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, every good thing in the realm of nature, grace and glory. These are the thoughts and expressions of the Fathers of the Church…(about) this sovereign and lovable Queen…” St. Louis de Montfort, The Love of Eternal Wisdom, #207.
ewtn.com/library/Montfort/LEW.HTM
Eavrything through Mary (not Jesus) and the quotes keep going on that.
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“…we find in Mary the end of the law and the fulfillment of the figures and oracles.” Pope Pius X, in Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum (On the Immaculate Conception), Encyclical promulgated on February 2, 1904, #6.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10imcon.htm
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No. Jesus is.
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“Mary, though conceived and born without taint of sin, participated in a marvelous way in the sufferings of her divine Son, in order to be Coredemptrix of humanity.” Pope John Paul II, in remarks made to pilgrims after his General Audience on September 8, 1982 (quoted in Insegnamenti di Giovanni Paolo II, V/3 (1982) 404, quoted by Arthur Burton Calkins, “Pope John Paul II’s Teaching on Marian Coredemption”, Mary Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate:Theological Foundations II, ed. Mark I. Miravalle, (Santa Barbara: Queenship Publishing, 1996), p122.
thekolbegroup.org/coredemptrix/in-defense/jp11.html
“As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother’s rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race.” Pope Benedict XV, in Inter Sodalicia, Apostolic Letter of March 22, 1918.
The Church Teaches, published by the Jesuit fathers of St. Mary’s College, bears the Imprimi Potest, Nihil Obstat, and Imprimatur of the Catholic Church, pages 210-211.
Wouldn’t the Full load have been on Jesus, He was on the Cross.
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“Mary was the only one who merited to be called the Mother as Spouse of God.” St. Augustine of Hippo, in Sermons #208 (quoted by St. Alphonsus de Liguori in The Glories of Mary, p 304 (New York: Redemptorist, 1931).
“…St Godfrey of Admont wrote that each person of the Godhead is Mary’s lover.” See the book by Michael O’Carroll, titled “‘Spouse of God’, Theotokos: A Theological Encyclopedia of the Blessed Virgin Mary”, p 158 (Wilmington, DE: Glazier, 1982).

Mary is the Bride and Spouse of God the Father
"…the mother of the Son of God can also be called in a special manner ‘bride of the Father.’ For, as mother she has received the Son of the Father through donation from His side as her Son; she possesses Him conjointly with the Father and is therefore connected with the Father by His Son as being hers also. (Fr. Matthias Joseph Scheeben, in Mariology, vol. 1, p 174-175 (“nihil obstat” by Innocentius Swoboda, O. F. M. Censor Librorum, “imprimatur” by Josephus E. Ritter, S.T.D., Archiepiscopus).
“Thus St. John Damascene, an outstanding herald of this traditional truth, spoke out with powerful eloquence when he compared the bodily Assumption of the loving Mother of God with her other prerogatives and privileges…‘It was fitting that she (Mary), who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions.’” Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (Defining the Dogma of the Assumption), Encyclical promulgated on November 1, 1950, #21.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MUNIF.HTM

Mary is the Bride and Spouse of God the Son
“Saint Ephrem the Syrian was probably the first early Christian to refer to Mary as the Bride of Christ…He was followed by the likes of Saint Peter Chrysologus, Rupert of Deutz, and Godfrey of Admont.” See the book by Michael O’Carroll, titled “‘Spouse of God’, Theotokos: A Theological Encyclopedia of the Blessed Virgin Mary”, p 333 (Wilmington, DE: Glazier, 1982).
“…(Mary is) the unique bridal, permanent helpmate and associate of Christ, who is the Head of the whole Church and world, in the entire work of redemption…” Fr. J. Kentenich, in Der Marianische Priester, p 38 (1941).
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Mary is the Bride and Spouse of the God the Holy Spirit
“Through her divine maternity, Mary in a certain way entered the divine family as a spouse who enters a royal home. With regard to the Father she became the first born daughter: I came out of the mouth of the Most High, the first-born before all creatures (Ecclus 24:5). With regard to the Son, she was a mother; with regard to the Holy Spirit, she was a bride.” Saint Alphonsus Liguori, in The Glories and Virtues of Mary, p. 43.
“…Unite, then, Venerable Brethren, your prayers with Ours, and at your exhortation let all Christian peoples add their prayers also, invoking the powerful and ever-acceptable intercession of the Blessed Virgin. You know well the intimate and wonderful relations existing between her and the Holy Spirit, so that she is justly called His Spouse. Her intercession was of great avail both in the mystery of the Incarnation and in the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles.” Pope Leo XIII, in Divinum illud Munus, Encyclical promulgated on May 9,1897, #14.
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13divin.htm
“She (Mary) is a virgin who ‘keeps whole and pure the fidelity she has pledged to her Spouse’…The Holy Spirit had already come down upon her, and she became his faithful spouse at the Annunciation.” Pope John Paul II, in Redemptoris Mater (On the Blessed Virgin Mary in the Life of the Pilgrim Church), Encyclical promulgated on March 25, 1987, #5, 26).
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater_en.html
“Let us turn our gaze to Mary, Christ’s first disciple, Spouse of the Holy Spirit and Mother of the Church, who was with the Apostles at the first Pentecost, so that she will help us to learn from her fiat docility to the voice of the Spirit.” Pope John Paul II, in his speech to the “World Congress of Ecclesial Movements and New Communities,” on May 27, 1998. vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_pc_laity_doc_27051998_movements-speech-hf_en.html
"Let us praise and thank the Holy Spirit, Who took her for His spouse.
“R. Amen. Say an ‘Our Father’.” St. Joseph Calasanctius, Found in the Raccolta, quoted in “Mary:The Crown of Twelve Stars”.
catholictradition.org/12stars.htm
How did we get this from the bible?
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“Mother of God, who contained the infinite God under your heart, whom no space can contain: Through you the Most Holy Trinity is adored and glorified, demons are vanquished, Satan cast down from heaven into hell, and our fallen nature again assumed into heaven.” St. Cyril of Alexandria, in Paean to Mary, Temple of the Godhead.
celtic-catholic-church.org/library/prayer/Marian_prayers.html
Through Mary God is glorifed?/
"Since grace enhances our human nature and glory adds a still greater perfection to grace, it is certain that our Lord remains in heaven just as much the Son of Mary as he was on earth. Consequently he has retained the submissiveness and obedience of the most perfect of all children towards the best of all mothers…When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will…
“Since the principal mystery celebrated and honoured in this devotion is the mystery of the Incarnation where we find Jesus only in Mary, having become incarnate in her womb, it is appropriate for us to say, ‘slavery of Jesus in Mary’, of Jesus dwelling enthroned in Mary, according to the beautiful, prayer, recited by so many great souls, ‘O Jesus living in Mary’.” St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #27, 246.
ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM
God is What?
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Wes. If this doesn’t show you that Catholics don’t worship Mary, your rather blind to facts.
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Got this from PNRC. I thought I could help the conversation with ccc 970-971 and he just sent this from the guy he has been getting his info from.I know he was talking with you guys about this and I figured scince I am not that deep in theology yet ya’ll could help me with this. Thanks.
 
oh… Montie got to ya’ll before I did. Dang. Well, what do you think about that? It seems fairly airtight to me, maybe ya’ll are seeing something I don’t see.
 
Read this part over and over until it sinks in

even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will…
 
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allhers:
Read this part over and over until it sinks in

even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will…
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I read this and honestly have no idea which side it is supposed to be supporting.

cheddar
 
Montie Claunch:
Got this from PNRC. I thought I could help the conversation with ccc 970-971 and he just sent this from the guy he has been getting his info from.I know he was talking with you guys about this and I figured scince I am not that deep in theology yet ya’ll could help me with this. Thanks.
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So, we are not going to get an answer as to how we are supposed to be worshipping Mary and not know it? Are we lying to you?
 
As a reader of classical literature something that I have occasionally been surprised by is the affectionate language used by members of the same sexes to describe friendship toward one another. Occasionally, the writing sounds almost homosexual to my modern ears.:o My point is that people of past centuries expressed themselves differently then we do today.

The Catholic church is 2000 years old, it is not hard to find flowery or what sounds strange to our modern ears. I will read over the sources that have been cited but it would be helpful if the poster provided the date of each passage.
 
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PNRC:
oh… Montie got to ya’ll before I did. Dang. Well, what do you think about that? It seems fairly airtight to me, maybe ya’ll are seeing something I don’t see.
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Yes, we’re seeing something you don’t see.

Every one of those things you two have quoted is quite innocuous, if you take them within the whole context of what the Church says about Mary.

So…what does the Catholic Church say about Mary? It’s all summed up in documents of Vatican Council II.

From Lumen Gentium, issued 21 November 1964, Number 62:

"The Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. **This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.

For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer.** Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer **does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary.** It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer." (vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html…that’s the Vatican website there, so it’s straight from the horse’s mouth.)

So, what does this passage say? It says, if you pay attention to the bolded parts, that Mary is subordinate to Christ. It says that what she has or does neither adds to nor takes away from what Christ has or does. It says that she is a created being, who cannot be counted equal with Christ. It says that she cooperates with Christ, and that cooperation is still rooted in Christ.

In short, whatever she gets, she gets from Christ, and whatever she gets, goes to Christ. She cannot do anything on her own. She has no intrinsic power on her own. She is not a demigoddess, nor a goddess; she is a branch, while Christ is the vine----same as any of us.

Anything-----ANYTHING that you read in Catholic documents about Mary must be understood within this context as outlined above. If you read it any other way, you are misinterpreting it.

Questions?
 
First, a distinction has to be made between theological opinion and dogma. What one theologian might say is not necessarily binding on all Catholics. What matters is what is in the Catechism. Secondly, do not confuse poetic language with theology or doctrine. I guess PNRC has never heard of similies, metaphors and hyperbole

God Bless
 
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deb1:
One of the best and simplest arguements that I have seen against our worship of Mary is that if we worshipped her, why wouldn’t we admit to doing so? Do nonCatholics think that all Catholics are taught to lie about their beliefs? If I saw Mary as a Goddess, wouldn’t I proudly admit that?
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This is so true. However, these people may be thinking that it is one big super-secret conspiracy where all 2nd graders (this is the year we have to know our Hail Mary prior to First Communion) are called into a room and told that even though we are supposed to worship Mary, we are to deny it to anyone who doesn’t know our secret handshake or the secret invisible ink that only illluminates when one says a “Hail Mary” under penalty of excommunication and time-out for a weekend.

We actually should take some pride (small p of course and not the deadly sin Capital P) in that they think us 1.2 billion Catholics are able to keep this conspiracy as it is the only subject that we universally agree on (note all the subjects here on CA Forum that we have differing opininions). 😉
 
All these websites with “proofs” are simply a VAIN attempts by anti-Catholics to satisfy their own agenda. They read something without understanding anything that the CC teaches without looking at its history, without reading and understanding the CCC, and immediately without question have come to a conclusion that they have “proof” about what the CC teaches and that it without doubt teaches Mary worship. These proofs are simply **useless, desperate, empty, fruitless, futile (few-tile), no way, no win, sad, hopeless, meaningless (anybody want to add some more adj.s?) **grasps at thin air.

I hadn’t thought about the comments made that if the CC teaches Mary worship, why, why, oh why, does the CC deny it and has always throughout its history denied it? I learned as a child, eons ago, from my grandmother, who never had an education but was very devoted to Our Blessed Mother, that GOD ALWAYS came first. We never, ever worshiped Mary**. IF** the CC says that we are to worship Mary and all the Catholics here at CA form insist that we do not, then we are poor disobedient Catholics. Seriously think about this.
 
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