Catholic Worship of Mary

[LSK]

PNRC:

And what of the countless Ex-catholics I have run into that say that there was Mary Worship as a pratice and (i quess) unwritten dogma?

There is no ‘unwritten dogma’ in Catholic Teachings. Unfortunately, some of the most misinformed people are fallen away Catholics. The fact that they tell you incorrect information about the Holy Mother Church is an indication of why they left the Truth - they were poorly taught, my brother, and we must take the responsibility for that…but to leave the Holy Mother Church because it has sinners as members makes no sense at all, for it is for the sinners that Jesus came and founded the Church.

You are here, my brother, to learn. Bishop Sheen once said something to the effect that people do not hate the Holy Mother Church, they hate only what they THINK the Holy Mother is - that if you truly know the Bride of Christ you can only love her.

You are on the road to TRUTH!!! Welcome!

 

[allhers]

cheddarsox:

I read this and honestly have no idea which side it is supposed to be supporting.

cheddar

Sorry cheddar, I see your point, however, trust me on this I am all Hers!! I was just answering the poster’s question directly above my answer on post #51, PNRC had asked this…“maybe ya’ll are seeing something I don’t see.” So, I suggested that they read that part that I posted on post #52 until it sunk in.

 

[mikeledes]

Any Catholic that becomes Protestant is a misinfomed Catholic.

God Bless

 

[Singinbeauty]

allhers:

Read this part over and over until it sinks in

even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will…

I have to say… I almost spit out my milk at this string of statements… :bigyikes: I don’t know what lies underneath BUT this, on the surface, borders on worship. She is no where NEAR the same level or authority as God. Oh my goodness… It still has me cringing…

 

[allhers]

I suggest you drink your milk and keep reading it then, perhaps you are reading into it, instead of simply reading it. Pay particular attention to the high-lighted parts. No Catholic Worship’s the Blessed Virgin Mary, so be assured on that point, plus, if we did, we’d be the first to admit it as we would want you all to know. We don’t!!

 

[TobyLue]

This is from dictionary.com I think it is important to understand the meaning of worship.

** Worship. n**

1. 1. 
      *]The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
      *]The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

1. 1. 
      

      *]Ardent devotion; adoration.
      *]often Worship Chiefly British. Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.

      v. wor·shiped, or wor·shipped wor·ship·ing, or wor·ship·ping **wor·ships **or wor·ships
      

      v. tr.

      1. 
         *]To honor and love as a deity.
         *]To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See Synonyms at revere1.

      1. 
         v. intr.
         

         1. 
            *]To participate in religious rites of worship.
            *]To perform an act of worship.

         1. 
            worship
            

            worship n 1: the activity of worshipping 2: a feeling of profound love and admiration [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=adoration”]adoration

            ] v 1: love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; venerate as an idol; “Many teenagers idolized the Beatles” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=idolize”]idolize, idolise, hero-worship, revere] 2: show devotion to (a deity); “Many Hindus worship Shiva” 3: attend religious services; “They worship in the traditional manner”
            

             **worship**

            Worship homage rendered to God which it is sinful (idolatry) to render to any
            created being (Ex. 34:14; Isa. 2:8). Such worship was refused by Peter (Acts
            10:25,26) and by an angel (Rev. 22:8,9).
            
            Do Catholics honor and love Mary as a diety? NO
            Do Catholics have an ardent or adoring esteem or devotion to Mary? YES (look up “adore”)
            Do Catholics have a feeling of profound love and admiration towards Mary? YES
            Do Catholics venerate Mary as an idol? NO
            Do Catholics give Mary the WORSHIP HOMAGE RENDERED TO GOD? **NO, NO, NO!!!
            
            **I think one of the main problems Protestants have with the devotion Catholics give to Mary is they have never, never, or have refused to look up the definitions to dulia, hyperdulia, and latria. Or maybe they just insist in remaining ignorant about them. (Unfortunately, many Catholics are not taught that either). I learned that when I was around 10 years old or so.

 

[Singinbeauty]

But by that statement it seems as if you DO but you have been told you don’t because you can’t seem to be putting Mary before God because that is against the bible. God takes commands from NO ONE. That statement, on the surface, concerns me GREATLY…

 

[Orionthehunter]

Singinbeauty:

But by that statement it seems as if you DO but you have been told you don’t because you can’t seem to be putting Mary before God because that is against the bible. God takes commands from NO ONE. That statement, on the surface, concerns me GREATLY…

Singing, please we prayerfully urge you to read the complete sentence to get the full context. You can’t read the first part about commands w/o qualifying the “command” with this part:

in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will…

If it is conformed to His will, He will totally accept it as it is of God. Think of the words of God to Moses: I AM THAT I AM. Everything that God is, everything that is God, is set for in that unqualified declaration of independent being. God is the One who contains all, who gives all that is given, but who Himself can recieve nothing that He has not first given.

If Mary’s prayer isn’t humble and conformed to His will, it is not of God. If it is, it is of God. He can not deny Himself as that would be a contradiction of God who is self-existent, self-sufficient, eternal, infinite, unchangeable (immutable), omniscient, perfectly wise, omnipotent, transcendent, omnipresent, faithful, good, just, merciful, holy, soveriegn, etc.

 

[heisenburg]

Mary Prays for us, show does not make commands to God. If she did, well, nevermind…

I think ANY infomred catholic will agree that Mary does not command anything of god. She has the highest amount of weight for prayer over anyone else, but that is differant than saying she commands…

God does what is in gods interest. Noo one, not mary, not moses, not me can change that.

I have seen alot of out of context statements that say the catholic church believes mary can, but in truth is that we do NOT believe she can…

 

[scylla]

Was Mary commanding Jesus when she talked with Him at Cana? She just said “they have no more wine” and He helped on His own free will. He did say His time had not yet come, yet He helped anyways.

That is how Catholics see Mary as requesting, not in commanding but trusting in the Lord’s love for us. Which fits perfectly into that quote you just read, just look at it from our point of view not from a biased point of view, as some do in order to find fault with the Catholic Church, but as we describe how we see her.
We look at Mary as someone to love and whom Jesus loves. Her soul magnifies the Lord. Luke 1:46

God Bless
Scylla

 

[deb1]

Singinbeauty:

But by that statement it seems as if you DO but you have been told you don’t because you can’t seem to be putting Mary before God because that is against the bible.

So, by this statement you are suggesting that we do worship Mary as God but but we don’t know that we do because the Catholic church doesn’t want us to think that we are going against the Bible? :ehh: For that to be possible wouldn’t the average Catholic have to be on the intelligence level of a slow chimpanzee?

Think about it. What would the Catholic church have to gain by fooling all its members?

 

[Singinbeauty]

deb1:

So, by this statement you are suggesting that we do worship Mary as God but but we don’t know that we do because the Catholic church doesn’t want us to think that we are going against the Bible? :ehh: For that to be possible wouldn’t the average Catholic have to be on the intelligence level of a slow chimpanzee?

Think about it. What would the Catholic church have to gain by fooling all its members?

I don’t know… up until now you all had me pretty convinced that you don’t worship Mary but that statement has been a setback for me… I am just being honest here… that statement REALLY curles my toes…

 

[Orionthehunter]

Singinbeauty:

I don’t know… up until now you all had me pretty convinced that you don’t worship Mary but that statement has been a setback for me… I am just being honest here… that statement REALLY curles my toes…

Good! Maybe it will cause you to explore deeper why you see things that you think is worship when everyone around you on these threads are telling you otherwise. It is discernment whose seeds can produce the richest fruit. Keep delving into this and you’ll soon be saying the Rosary!

 

[Singinbeauty]

Keep delving into this and you’ll soon be saying the Rosary!

While I highly doubt this, I will keep truckin’ on in my research. But I will be honest… that statement is a HUGE setback for me in the way that I WAS thinking that catholics don’t worship Mary but with a thought process like that one you pretty much put me back at square one… thanx for that allhers…

 

[cheddarsox]

deb1:

So, by this statement you are suggesting that we do worship Mary as God but but we don’t know that we do because the Catholic church doesn’t want us to think that we are going against the Bible? :ehh: For that to be possible wouldn’t the average Catholic have to be on the intelligence level of a slow chimpanzee?

Think about it. What would the Catholic church have to gain by fooling all its members?

Deb, actually, I do sort of feel that way. I feel that the church gives the honor given to Mary a different name, when, for a tremendous number of believers, it actually amounts to worship. Then, when someone says "hmm, I’m concerned about that, it looks, feels and smells like worship. " everyone can say “on, don’t be silly, it’s hyperdulia!”

I think the church allows it to continue for the same reason Moses allowed the people to create a golden calf, to keep them happy. Many have such a deep devotion to Mary that to make any chastizing statements against such would create havock.

Because what the church says, goes. If the church tells people that pretty much no matter what they do in the way of Marian devotion is OK, then people will accept it.

While the church does teach that worship to Mary is wrong, on the other hand, the church also supports many devotions, and shares prayers and practices that are essentially indistinguishable from worship. I find that very confusing.

I found it confusing as a Catholic. I felt the church was playing word games with me. Telling me that worship was just hyperdulia, even though, in experience it was indistinguishable from latria, at least for me, and for many others I have spoken with.

And there was no way to discuss it, because when the subject arose, Marian types would go ballistic at the mere mention of the possibility that anyone placed Mary perhaps a bit higher than is appropriate.

I do not think that most Catholics worship Mary, nor that most Catholics are slower than chimpanzees, but I do think there is a real blind spot when it comes to Marian devotion and where the line between appropriate and inappropriate devotions is set.

I think people deny that Mary is worshipped because they don’t want to accept that something wrong is taking place. And the people who participate are misled people, not evil people. And the church has given them an out by creating a label which legitimizes their behavior.

These are concerns that came to me when I was a very devout and studious Catholic. They have nothing to do with an axe to grind etc. I do not hate the church, but this area concerns me greatly.

cheddar

 

[E.E.N.S]

Singinbeauty:

I have to say… I almost spit out my milk at this string of statements… :bigyikes: I don’t know what lies underneath BUT this, on the surface, borders on worship. She is no where NEAR the same level or authority as God. Oh my goodness… It still has me cringing…

That’s because you don’t understand fully, and you are taking this statement out of context.

St. Louis de Montfort (who wrote the quote which made you “almost spit out your milk”) would agree with you that Mary is nothing when compared to God. I will quote him here (only shortly before the previous quote in the same book):

“With the whole Church I acknowledge that Mary, being a mere creature fashioned by the hands of God is, compared to his infinite majesty, less than an atom, or rather is simply nothing, since he alone can say, “I am he who is”. Consequently, this great Lord, who is ever independent and self-sufficient, never had and does not now have any absolute need of the Blessed Virgin for the accomplishment of his will and the manifestation of his glory. To do all things he has only to will them.”

 

[E.E.N.S]

Singinbeauty:

But I will be honest… that statement is a HUGE setback for me in the way that I WAS thinking that catholics don’t worship Mary but with a thought process like that one you pretty much put me back at square one… thanx for that allhers…

That statement shouldn’t be that much of a set back, in fact when taken into context with the rest of the book, it should be a step forward.

 

[bookgirl]

Singinbeauty:

But by that statement it seems as if you DO but you have been told you don’t because you can’t seem to be putting Mary before God because that is against the bible. God takes commands from NO ONE. That statement, on the surface, concerns me GREATLY…

Um, it sure looked like He obeyed His mother at the wedding at Cana . . . Didn’t He tell her it wasn’t time yet? And didn’t she turn around, tell the servant, “Do as He says”, and then He did it? If that’s not taking a command I’m not sure what it is. He honored His mother, and obeyed her.

 

[E.E.N.S]

cheddarsox:

Deb, actually, I do sort of feel that way. I feel that the church gives the honor given to Mary a different name, when, for a tremendous number of believers, it actually amounts to worship. Then, when someone says "hmm, I’m concerned about that, it looks, feels and smells like worship. " everyone can say “on, don’t be silly, it’s hyperdulia!”

I think the church allows it to continue for the same reason Moses allowed the people to create a golden calf, to keep them happy. Many have such a deep devotion to Mary that to make any chastizing statements against such would create havock.

Because what the church says, goes. If the church tells people that pretty much no matter what they do in the way of Marian devotion is OK, then people will accept it.

While the church does teach that worship to Mary is wrong, on the other hand, the church also supports many devotions, and shares prayers and practices that are essentially indistinguishable from worship. I find that very confusing.

I found it confusing as a Catholic. I felt the church was playing word games with me. Telling me that worship was just hyperdulia, even though, in experience it was indistinguishable from latria, at least for me, and for many others I have spoken with.

And there was no way to discuss it, because when the subject arose, Marian types would go ballistic at the mere mention of the possibility that anyone placed Mary perhaps a bit higher than is appropriate.

I do not think that most Catholics worship Mary, nor that most Catholics are slower than chimpanzees, but I do think there is a real blind spot when it comes to Marian devotion and where the line between appropriate and inappropriate devotions is set.

I think people deny that Mary is worshipped because they don’t want to accept that something wrong is taking place. And the people who participate are misled people, not evil people. And the church has given them an out by creating a label which legitimizes their behavior.

These are concerns that came to me when I was a very devout and studious Catholic. They have nothing to do with an axe to grind etc. I do not hate the church, but this area concerns me greatly.

cheddar

I couldn’t disagree with this more. Mary is not simply “put up with” for the sake of the people, in fact devotion to her is highly recommended by many MANY saints and Popes throughout the ages. It is very clear how devotion to Mary is to be understood in many different writings (whether they use poetic language or not), and I firmly believe that anyone (pre-conceived notion or not) who actually reads the material fully and prayerfully will not only get past any road block that they may currently have, but they will find that proper devotion to Mary to be very effecatious.

Those who do not properly give attention to the material that is available on the subject, or for those who go about it simply in a bias manner, determined only to find some wrong therein, I do not give even a 1 in 10,000 chance of understanding.

 

[Brendan]

Singinbeauty:

But by that statement it seems as if you DO but you have been told you don’t because you can’t seem to be putting Mary before God because that is against the bible. God takes commands from NO ONE. That statement, on the surface, concerns me GREATLY…

Singinbeauty,

Here is Scripture on the Wedding Feast at Cana.

Can you answer, in your own words the questions below?

John 2 (NIV)

1On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, “My time has not yet come.”

5His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

6Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.
7Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.

8Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet."

They did so,

Did Jesus desire to perform this miracle?

Did Jesus, in fact, perform a miracle?

If so, why?