Catholic Worship of Mary

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Matthew 25,

For you I say (1 Cor 1:4) 🙂

Please, stay as long as you like…you do not have to post about Mary if you don’t want to, there is far more to this forum that Mary. And we all post in a vast variety of topics.

You have a good deal more charity than many people on this board (including myself many times), and that is well appreciated.

I hope that you are able to share and learn much on these forums - and I will talk with you again! 😉

May the grace and peace of Our Lord reign in our hearts!
 
But we must pray for them - the papal writings quoted are badly translated from the Latin. And because Latin is such a rich language, the average person today is unaware that there are two ways to write the word ‘honor’, two ways to write the word ‘worshp’, etc, one way reserved for God and the other reserved for creatures. This has often been used by anti-Catholics and our misguided separated brethren to ‘prove’ we worship Mary. But, unless one is as well educated as those who wrote the books and letters from which one is quoting, one is often left with egg on one’s face…and for that reason, we must continue to invite them to learn the truth, and welcome them to the whole banquet. It is waiting!

This is very true about Latin and languages in general. The word ‘worship’ was used in the middle ages as a sign of respect and NOT of actual worship as is given to God; that’s why subjects, many of them Christians, would call their king “your worship” out of respect instead of the worship we give to God alone. Also, those under the king would call him “my lord” without worshiping him, as many modern movies still do depicting the vinacular of that time.
 
Matthew 25:
Hi folks,
But, on the role of Mary, it is like the old Eric Clapton song: “There ain’t no good guys, there ain’t no bad guys, there’s only you and me and we just disagree.”
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I believe that was Dave Mason.
I am not a smart man. Can anyone tell me my options to this?
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Keep up the honest searching and rational, respectful, very Christian tone, and you can keep questioning all you want, IMO.

Pax Christi
 
Nancy and others,

Gosh I didn’t see the following post (that you commented on) previously. With all due love and respect to the person who wrote it, this is the kind of doctrine that scares me terribly - and I’ve seen it and heard it many times in the world of Catholicism.
How many others agree with the following? This sure sounds to me like Mary is being relegated to the role of deity, but, as a nondenominational Christian, I am told repeatedly by Catholics that she is not a diety figure in the Catholic Church.​

"Mary Places Herself Between Christ and His People, and Thus We Only Have Access to God and Jesus Through Mary. All Heavenly Gifts From the Father, Son, or the Holy Spirit, Including the Gift of Salvation, Come ONLY Through Mary.Mary is the Ladder, Chief Confidence, Whole Ground of Hope, Greatest Security, and the Door to God for Sinners.Mary Has Reconciled Humanity With God, Assented to Rescue Our Fallen World, and is the ONLY Refuge and Sole Hope of Sinners.Mary Co-shared in the Offering and Sacrifice for Sin at Calvary.In Mary is to be Found the End of the Law and the Fulfilling of Figures.Mary is the Lover and Spouse of the Godhead.Mary is the Bride and Spouse of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
It is Through Mary that God is Adored and Glorified Mary is Divine, Sovereign, and Reigns on the Throne of God, Wielding Almost Limitless Royal Power, as Queen of the Earth, Angels, Heaven, and the Universe

God Himself is Subject, Submissive, and Obedient to Mary Everything We Do Must be for Mary
It is Through Mary That We Have Salvation and Can Enter Heaven No One is a True Christian Unless They Are Devoted to Mary
It is Through Mary that we Gain Eter nal Life Mary is the Center of the Whole World, and is to be Praised, Venerated, Honored, Esteemed, and Worshipped
Devotion to Mary is NECESSARY For Salvation and Freedom From Sin."
 
Matthew 25:
Nancy and others,

Gosh I didn’t see the following post (that you commented on) previously. With all due love and respect to the person who wrote it, this is the kind of doctrine that scares me terribly - and I’ve seen it and heard it many times in the world of Catholicism.
How many others agree with the following? This sure sounds to me like Mary is being relegated to the role of deity, but, as a nondenominational Christian, I am told repeatedly by Catholics that she is not a diety figure in the Catholic Church.
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These phrases are from various documents, mostly taken out of its proper context, and strung together to alter the tone and context. Probably originated here:
3angelsministry.com/id23.htm

Some are poorly translated as well.

Please, pick out 3 or 4 of them, and we can discuss them.
 
Matthew 25:
Nancy and others,

Gosh I didn’t see the following post (that you commented on) previously. With all due love and respect to the person who wrote it, this is the kind of doctrine that scares me terribly - and I’ve seen it and heard it many times in the world of Catholicism.
How many others agree with the following? This sure sounds to me like Mary is being relegated to the role of deity, but, as a nondenominational Christian, I am told repeatedly by Catholics that she is not a diety figure in the Catholic Church.​

"Mary Places Herself Between Christ and His People, and Thus We Only Have Access to God and Jesus Through Mary. All Heavenly Gifts From the Father, Son, or the Holy Spirit, Including the Gift of Salvation, Come ONLY Through Mary.Mary is the Ladder, Chief Confidence, Whole Ground of Hope, Greatest Security, and the Door to God for Sinners.Mary Has Reconciled Humanity With God, Assented to Rescue Our Fallen World, and is the ONLY Refuge and Sole Hope of Sinners.Mary Co-shared in the Offering and Sacrifice for Sin at Calvary.In Mary is to be Found the End of the Law and the Fulfilling of Figures.Mary is the Lover and Spouse of the Godhead.Mary is the Bride and Spouse of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
It is Through Mary that God is Adored and Glorified Mary is Divine, Sovereign, and Reigns on the Throne of God, Wielding Almost Limitless Royal Power, as Queen of the Earth, Angels, Heaven, and the Universe

God Himself is Subject, Submissive, and Obedient to Mary Everything We Do Must be for Mary
It is Through Mary That We Have Salvation and Can Enter Heaven No One is a True Christian Unless They Are Devoted to Mary
It is Through Mary that we Gain Eter nal Life Mary is the Center of the Whole World, and is to be Praised, Venerated, Honored, Esteemed, and Worshipped
Devotion to Mary is NECESSARY For Salvation and Freedom From Sin."
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Yes, I share your concern. This just jumped out at me and made me shiver…
It is Through Mary that God is Adored and Glorified Mary is Divine, Sovereign, and Reigns on the Throne of God, Wielding Almost Limitless Royal Power, as Queen of the Earth, Angels, Heaven, and the Universe
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God Himself is Subject, Submissive, and Obedient to Mary Everything We Do Must be for Mary
It is Through Mary That We Have Salvation and Can Enter Heaven No One is a True Christian Unless They Are Devoted to Mary
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It makes me want to cry out to God. These kinds of statements just make me sad… 😦
 
Those posts don’t make me shiver, sad, happy, or anything…they are simply a bunch of quotes clearly taken out of context, so they should be of little concern - certainly not something anyone should base their opinion on…
 
Hi folks,

Well I read all of those quotes from “Amazing Things Catholics Say about Mary” of which the link was posted here.

I am assuming that those quotes which were used were accurate.
I find these types of things being written about Mary - including prayers worshipping her - in mostly ancient writings.

Has the Catholic Church over time distanced itsself from such Mary idolatry? (Such as, that salvation must come through Mary. That Jesus must be obedient and submissive to Mary in heaven. That the Holy Trinity is somehow “imbedded” in Mary. In other words, that she is not a mere mortal like the rest of us, though a mere mortal who did wonderful things in service to God).
 
Matthew 25:
I am assuming that those quotes which were used were accurate.
I find these types of things being written about Mary - including prayers worshipping her - in mostly ancient writings.
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Some may or may not be, but guaranteed they are out of context.
Matthew 25:
Has the Catholic Church over time distanced itsself from such Mary idolatry?
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The Catholic Church never taught in Mary idolatry.

Matthew 25 said:
(Such as, that salvation must come through Mary.
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In context this would be talking about how Christ is our salvation, and He came through Mary.
Matthew 25:
That Jesus must be obedient and submissive to Mary in heaven.
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Jesus was/is the perfect Son, thus He most perfectly fulfilled the 4th commandment…it’s not that He MUST be obedient like a slave, but that He chooses to like a son. Also remember that Mary’s will is perfectly conformed to God’s will, so she would never vary from her Son’s will.
Matthew 25:
That the Holy Trinity is somehow “imbedded” in Mary.
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Never heard this one before - I would have to hear it in context to give any sort of explanation for it.
 
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Singinbeauty:
Yes, I share your concern. This just jumped out at me and made me shiver…

It makes me want to cry out to God. These kinds of statements just make me sad… 😦
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So, are those that you highlighted the ones you want to discuss?
Like I said above, there are far too many to discuss each one in detail. Pick a few. You choose.
 
Matthew 25:
Hi folks,

Well, you’ve all blessed this old white-bearded, physically disabled non-denominational Christian contemplative. Even you, blessed friend, Michael, whose answers are a bit on the blunt side (smile). That’s okay, because sometimes people say my comments can be a little blunt, too.

I want you to know that I love you all, even if some may not intuitively want to accept love from a non-Catholic (smile). But I hope you love me, too, as a brother in Christ. God really is about love, isn’t He? Sometimes we flawed human beings (me included) lose sight of that fact.

MICHAEL - Thank you for pointing out to me that reference to Mary in the Book of Acts. I don’t know how I missed that before - I’ve read the Bible through scores of times. I think that is a really neat meditation to think about Mary being in that situation.

What I am torn about is that I don’t want to lose my new Catholic friends by not posting anymore about Mary.

I am not a smart man. Can anyone tell me my options to this?
**
Does discussion on this thread have to be exclusively about Mary?**
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Are you all somewhere else in the Catholic Answers group so that we can continue on with this great “ecumenical” dialogue (smile).
Thanks Matt 25!
If I came off as blunt, it wasn’t intentional. Please don’t mistake my sometimes short (stop that laughing at me you guys…I heard that! :rolleyes: ) answers for a lack of charity. In dealing with apologetics like this we get all kinds…some are not as kind and thoughtful as you have proved to be. 🙂

A great many of my posts are meant to simply supply information like that one did. It’s not dressed up or anything…it’s just facts.

As to whether this thread must remain on the topic of Mary: Yes.
Wandering off topic will get the thread closed pdq. The easy way is to have a look at the topics curently under discussion in this forum and then go to the one that you want to discuss, read it over and then post any questions, comments, or insights that you feel are relevent.

As for the quotes that you and my friend SinginBeauty see my posts below…they are outright fabrications.

Hear this one statement loud and clear: The Catholic Church has not, does not, and will not ever teach the worship of anyone but the Holy Trinity.

I personally have a deep devotion to Our Lady that has very much enriched my own love and committment to her Son…to the extent that I am consecrated to the spread of the Gospel as a knight of the Immaculata Militia Immaculata.

You will find that Catholics have a very deep devotion to Our Lord and it is only helped and enhanced by our belief in Hebrews 12:1 and our devotion to the saints. Let me offer you a link to some very clear and concise articles that may help you better understand our beliefs in this matter. Mary & the Saints .
Feel free to PM me if I can be of any assistance at all.
Pax tecum, (See Matthew 10:12)
 
Hi Matt and SB!..

.I did go to that stupid site that the link is to and just as I expected…the quotes are taken WAAAAAAYYYY outta context and in fact they begin their quotes in places strategically chosen to badly misrepresent what the pope was saying.

In fact…I invite you ALL to click this link to the very vatican document that that site alleges to be quoting and see for yourselves that they have not merely misquoted it…they have taken one simple phrase and concocted a quote that DOES NOT EXIST. My dear friendS…this is not a case of a simple mistake…this is clearly a blatant case of complete misrepresentation that will indeed do JUST what it was designed to (as it has done here!) misgude honest Christians into believing outright lies about our most holy faith. :mad:

For those who put that lying slanderous site together, I offer this prayer from King David in 1st Samuel 24:16 (Douay-Rheims) Be the Lord judge, and judge between me and thee, and see, and judge my cause, and deliver me out of thy hand. :mad:

Gloria in excelsis Deo!
The REAL document!
 
Here is the actual context:Here is THE TRUTH!
21. From this point of view, particularly eloquent is the passage in the Gospel of John which presents Mary at the wedding feast of Cana. She appears there as the Mother of Jesus at the beginning of his public life: “There was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples” (Jn. 2:1-2). From the text it appears that Jesus and his disciples were invited together with Mary, as if by reason of her presence at the celebration: the Son seems to have been invited because of his mother. We are familiar with the sequence of events which resulted from that invitation, that “beginning of the signs” wrought by Jesus-the water changed into wine-which prompts the Evangelist to say that Jesus “manifested his glory; and his disciples believed in him” (Jn. 2:11).

Mary is present at Cana in Galilee as the Mother of Jesus, and in a significant way she contributes to that “beginning of the signs” which reveal the messianic power of her Son. We read: “When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, ‘They have no wine.’ And Jesus said to her, ‘O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come’” (Jn. 2:3-4). In John’s Gospel that “hour” means the time appointed by the Father when the Son accomplishes his task and is to be glorified (cf. Jn. 7:30; 8:20; 12:23, 27; 13:1; 17:1; 19:27). Even though Jesus’ reply to his mother sounds like a refusal (especially if we consider the blunt statement “My hour has not yet come” rather than the question), Mary nevertheless turns to the servants and says to them: “Do whatever he tells you” (Jn. 2:5). Then Jesus orders the servants to fill the stone jars with water, and the water becomes wine, better than the wine which has previously been served to the wedding guests.

What deep understanding existed between Jesus and his mother? How can we probe the mystery of their intimate spiritual union? But the fact speaks for itself. It is certain that that event already quite clearly outlines the new dimension, the new meaning of Mary’s motherhood. Her motherhood has a significance which is not exclusively contained in the words of Jesus and in the various episodes reported by the Synoptics (Lk. 11:27-28 and Lk. 8:19-21; Mt. 12:46-50; Mk. 3:31-35). In these texts Jesus means above all to contrast the motherhood resulting from the fact of birth with what this “motherhood” (and also “brotherhood”) is to be in the dimension of the Kingdom of God, in the salvific radius of God’s fatherhood. In John’s text on the other hand, the description of the Cana event outlines what is actually manifested as a new kind of motherhood according to the spirit and not just according to the flesh, that is to say Mary’s solicitude for human beings, her coming to them in the wide variety of their wants and needs. At Cana in Galilee there is shown only one concrete aspect of human need, apparently a small one of little importance (“They have no wine”). But it has a symbolic value: this coming to the aid of human needs means, at the same time, bringing those needs within the radius of Christ’s messianic mission and salvific power. Thus there is a mediation: Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself “in the middle,” that is to say she acts as a mediatrix not as an outsider, but in her position as mother. She knows that as such she can point out to her Son the needs of mankind, and in fact, she “has the right” to do so. Her mediation is thus in the nature of intercession: Mary “intercedes” for mankind. And that is not all. As a mother she also wishes the messianic power of her Son to be manifested, that salvific power of his which is meant to help man in his misfortunes, to free him from the evil which in various forms and degrees weighs heavily upon his life. Precisely as the Prophet Isaiah had foretold about the Messiah in the famous passage which Jesus quoted before his fellow townsfolk in Nazareth: “To preach good news to the poor…to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind…” (cf. Lk. 4:18).

Another essential element of Mary’s maternal task is found in her words to the servants: “Do whatever he tells you.” The Mother of Christ presents herself as the spokeswoman of her Son’s will, pointing out those things which must be done so that the salvific power of the Messiah may be manifested. At Cana, thanks to the intercession of Mary and the obedience of the servants, Jesus begins “his hour.” At Cana Mary appears as believing in Jesus. Her faith evokes his first “sign” and helps to kindle the faith of the disciples.
 
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PNRC:
Mary Places Herself Between Christ and His People, and Thus We Only Have Access to God and Jesus Through Mary. All Heavenly Gifts From the Father, Son, or the Holy Spirit, Including the Gift of Salvation, Come ONLY Through Mary.Mary is the Ladder, Chief Confidence, Whole Ground of Hope, Greatest Security, and the Door to God for Sinners.Mary Has Reconciled Humanity With God, Assented to Rescue Our Fallen World, and is the ONLY Refuge and Sole Hope of Sinners.Mary Co-shared in the Offering and Sacrifice for Sin at Calvary.In Mary is to be Found the End of the Law and the Fulfilling of Figures.Mary is the Lover and Spouse of the Godhead.Mary is the Bride and Spouse of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
It is Through Mary that God is Adored and Glorified Mary is Divine, Sovereign, and Reigns on the Throne of God, Wielding Almost Limitless Royal Power, as Queen of the Earth, Angels, Heaven, and the Universe

God Himself is Subject, Submissive, and Obedient to Mary Everything We Do Must be for Mary
It is Through Mary That We Have Salvation and Can Enter Heaven No One is a True Christian Unless They Are Devoted to Mary
It is Through Mary that we Gain Eter nal Life Mary is the Center of the Whole World, and is to be Praised, Venerated, Honored, Esteemed, and Worshipped
Devotion to Mary is NECESSARY For Salvation and Freedom From Sin
These are my objections as the quotes show.
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You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are beleiving lies made up by peoploe who hate the Catholic Church.

I spent 25 years outside of the Church because I beleived all these lies. I finally spent 5 long years researching everything about the Catholic Church and found out they are teaching the truth. I was angree because I was fed lies.

I just tried to join a Baptist bbs but was denied because I was Catholic. They don’t want to hear the truth. They are afraid there members will leave when they find out the truth.

So unless you can open your mind and heart to the truth, go back to you own fundamentalist groups and stop speading lies here to Catholics who may be weak in their faith and fall for the lies like I did. I only thank God for showing me the truth.
 
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PNRC:
And what of the countless Ex-catholics I have run into that say that there was Mary Worship as a pratice and (i quess) unwritten dogma?
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They were un-educated in the teachings of the church as I was once. I will be the first to admit that the catholic church doesn’t do a good job of educating it’s members but it is getting better.
 
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PNRC:
oh… Montie got to ya’ll before I did. Dang. Well, what do you think about that? It seems fairly airtight to me, maybe ya’ll are seeing something I don’t see.
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No where do I see anything yet that says to worship Mary. If this is your big argument then you better never ever ask anyone to pray for you, because if you do then by your logic you are worshiping that person!
 
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PNRC:
I thought it prudent to show one of the Catholic errs in Marian worship.
These are authroatative quotes which prove that the Catholic Church worships Mary.
Important moderator note: The website that is here offered is not giving accurate quotes of real Catholic documents. But pulling pieces out of context. Thanks to Church Militant for his quick research that he has posted later on in this thread which shows the quotes they cite do not exist. They are complete fabrications. Link removed as rabidly anti-Catholic
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Now you all can see why Bishop Fulton J. Sheen said:
“There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. **There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church…**As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do.”
—Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, preface to Radio Replies (Emphasis mine)also see post 101
 
I just wanted to add that I am saddened by the statements that were presented NOT by whether or not I thought that is what catholics think. It’s a confusing thing for me and will be revealed, I am sure, as time goes on. 🙂
 
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TobyLue:
Cheddarsox,

This is from a pantheist website pantheism.net/paul/beliefs.htm
Code: 
 **That emotional response has two primary elements. One is a sense of awe, wonder, reverence and acceptance of the natural universe, based on its power and beauty and mystery. This sense is the basis for some pantheists' use of words such as "god" "divine," though these words are never used in their traditional Western theistic sense.**

 So everything is part of nature, We are part of nature. Are not trees and bunny rabbits part of nature? I have heard some pantheist use these words exactly, that everything is god, even a tree, even a bunny rabbit.
**
Trees and bunnies are part of the divine, but that is rather different from your previous statement that to a pantheist a tree or rabbit is God. (your capitol, I believe)**
Code: 
 You said “I still have ties to the Church” If you left the church you have broken the ties.
**Yes, I did break my ties to the church, however I have ties in that I have family members who are part of the Church. **
Code: 
 And Yes I was reading what you were saying, but you were saying that you were a devout catholic and after much prayer you left the church and then you said that where you are is where the divine will wants you to be. These statements can only mean that you prayed and discerned that you should embrace pantheism and abandon the faith that you were so devoted to.
It was not a direct route. I left the Catholic church. And after many years arrived at pantheism.I did not leave the Catholic church for pantheism.
Code: 
  I repeat, regardless of how you want to define pantheism, or what variety you practice, the bottom line is “pan=many” and “theos=god”.
Actually, pan=all, poly=many. Pantheism refers to the divine as all. All that is, is the divine. Polytheism is the term for many gods.

Yes I agree, we shall discontinue discussion as it’s not what this thread is about.

We are all praying for you to Our Lord Jesus Christ and asking Our Blessed Mother for intercession.

**very charitable of you,

cheddar**
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