Catholicism – Too Feminized?

[pianistclare]

You mean this is the issue? After 12 pages of discussion, feminization comes down to whether or not men are emphasized enough? What is everyone debating then?
YES! Someone finally said it! I was really hoping this wasn’t just about female altar servers, but I still suspect that it was.

Maybe the Church is to blame. We spend a lot of time on Mary and basically ignore Joseph. Joseph is eternally in the background. A supporting actor. An understudy. The second string quarterback with the clipboard and the headset. He did his job, took care of Mary and Jesus without much more than a mention here and there. He was a mensch. A presumably hardworking, honorable fellow who seems to have kept his counsel to himself and didn’t get any more involved than was necessary.

And frankly, (don’t interrupt, I’m almost on a roll here) this is the character that is illustrated to us men as an example of what is expected of us when priests talk about Joseph on the rare occasions that they do: Basically leading up to Christmas, when Joseph packs his pregnant wife to go to Bethlehem for the census, when Joseph has a dream to lead his wife and son to Egypt, when Joseph looks for Jesus in the caravan.

Joseph drives the minivan. He has a day job. We are “called” to be Joseph when the Church addresses us. But the immersion into Christianity was left to Mary and Jesus.

Of course, I’m not complaining. Que sera sera. It is what it is.

And if we’re to conclude that Catholicism is too feminized, let’s broaden our scope to include Christianity. I have a number of Protestant friends, some of whom go on mission trips. Who goes? The wives and the daughters.

 

[Norseman82]

I look at it as the loss of certain values that may be traditionally attributed to masculinity - assertiveness, “sticking to one’s guns”, being ready to confront, etc. These values are looked down upon in favor of “giving in to keep the peace”. Just look at the threads here at CAF about things that could cause scandal (whether it be attending marriages that go against Church rules or acknowledging immoral living situations) for examples; and if someone does confront or “call someone out” or defends one’s self or even shows logical consequences, one risks getting reported. It’s what Michael Voris calls “The Church of Nice”.

Let me give an example of RC feminist overreach which may be infuriating to some men. It’s the gender-neutering of lyrics. Hark the Herald Angels Sing now includes the clunker “pleased as us with us to dwell, Jesus our Emmanuel”. You can’t say MAN anymore, even though it stands for all humanity. If you don’t like the lyrics the composer wrote, write your own song! Don’t butcher his!

I remember a priest once saying he used the word “humankind” because using the word “humanity” did not satisfy the feminists. Some fortitude that shows!

 

[ProVobis]

Yes. Years ago, my husband and I were new in town, had a five year old and a two year old, and we made a point to meet with our new pastor, a very wise and prudent man. We asked him what we could do for him. He told us that the best thing we can do for the Church is to bring our children up right.

A very wise man, indeed!

 

[ProVobis]

"The trailer (below) suggests that the practice partly responds to “feminised Christianity”, with one fighter telling the camera that “tough guys need Jesus too.”

Actually only sinners need Christ. And women don’t sin.

 

[Trad_Catholic27]

The Church has lost an entire generation of men by lacking hard hitting sermons from Our Priests, allowing female altar girls into the Holy sanctuary, By our priests not urging men to get involved with the Church and Her ministry’s, By not reminding men of their God given authority over their families and most especially by not preaching about the evils of sexual sin

Also not urging men to go out and convert the nation and other men to Catholicism

 

[EasterJoy]

Why sad? I have a busy and hectic life. I can’t magically carve out time no matter if the priest asks me to or not. It’s the reality. Fifteen years from now it might be different. Who knows?

What do you mean, “Fifteen years from now it might be different. Who knows?” If you are temporarily so busy that you don’t even have time to give some of your time to your parish, aren’t you planning your life so you get out of this nutty-hectic life a lot sooner than *15 years *from now?

Some people have very compelling reasons for not helping out. I can only hope for your sake that you aren’t someone who is in that group and foresees being in it for 15 years. That happens, and it is a heartbreaking situation when it does. It is funny, though, how some of the busiest people in the parish are the ones doing most of the work at the parish, too. It is because they plan their lives with volunteer time at the parish built into their plans. If parishioners don’t do that, they don’t ever find the time. Something else will always step in and claim it.

Parishes do not run by themselves. The small fraction of the parishioners that get things done get discouraged by the far greater number of their brothers and sisters who haven’t arranged their lives to pitch in and help at least some of the time on something. It doesn’t have to be a lot of time every week, but something! Be someone who steps in and helps, and be that person as soon as you can.

If you really can’t, that is really sad. You’re missing out, so is your parish, and your life is extremely difficult on top of it. I hope you get some respite help soon.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes. Years ago, my husband and I were new in town, had a five year old and a two year old, and we made a point to meet with our new pastor, a very wise and prudent man. We asked him what we could do for him. He told us that the best thing we can do for the Church is to bring our children up right.

It wasn’t too many years later, though, when part of bringing them up was bringing them to church and helping around the parish, right? Doing that with our children was one of the best things we ever did for them. They got to know their fellow parishioners, they built a connection between themselves and our parish, and they learned to appreciate that their help is important in keeping it running.

 

[Xantippe]

I look at it as the loss of certain values that may be traditionally attributed to masculinity - assertiveness, “sticking to one’s guns”, being ready to confront, etc. These values are looked down upon in favor of “giving in to keep the peace”.

1. Aren’t there quite a few assertive CAF women? Do you suppose they’re all potted plants in real life?
2. Is it really the case that all of our Biblical male heroes fit your model? I don’t think that that is actually the case. (St. Paul was obviously assertive and confrontational, but it doesn’t sound like St. John was.) Furthermore, there are a lot of assertive, persistent women in the Bible. In fact, to this day, Jewish women have a reputation for being assertive.

 

[Xantippe]

The Church has lost an entire generation of men by lacking hard hitting sermons from Our Priests, allowing female altar girls into the Holy sanctuary, By our priests not urging men to get involved with the Church and Her ministry’s, By not reminding men of their God given authority over their families and most especially by not preaching about the evils of sexual sin

Also not urging men to go out and convert the nation and other men to Catholicism

Parents of young families aren’t thrilled to have sermons on inappropriate subjects that the whole family gets to sit through. Whenever a priest starts up one (and we had one on pornography just in the past year or so that was extremely marginal), it’s always an open question how inappropriate it’s going to get, and whether it’s going to be necessary to walk out and how much damage is going to be done before it’s done. Parents who carefully control children’s media consumption are not going to be happy when it’s Father who introduces inappropriate and disturbing images into their children’s minds.

Priests shouldn’t be springing inappropriate stuff on young families and they shouldn’t be endangering children’s innocence or infringing on the parental role in education.

 

[Yeoman]

I don’t know that many priests who *aren’t *masculine. Certainly the pastors I have had were instrumental in keeping the parish from being shoved too far towards catering only towards the sensibilities of the female volunteers or staff members who were among the most assertive in their opinions about how to do things. This may be why we have roughly as many men as women as lectors, extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, choir, and so on. Among altar servers, it is literally half boys and half girls.

I have lived in parishes in which the Knights of Columbus are very active, though. When the Knights are running something, the men of the parish are running it. Even if they accept the help of female volunteers, it does have a different emphasis. The presence of the Knights probably does make a big difference.

I would generally agree with you, although I would also note that it seems to me that priests are much more marginalized in male society today than they once were.

Christ went, of course, out among the publicans and sinners, and I really think that perhaps part of what we need to reverse the marginalization of the Church is to see a few priests out on the trout streams, pheasant fields, and ball games. Makes a difference in how they are perceived.

And I know some who like to do those things, although guys in the parish probably have to ask them. I would also note that I heard an interview of a Priest on Catholic Answers last year some time in which the Priest shied away from such things saying he was really too busy, which I think is not a good thing. Being too busy myself with my unfortunate worldly vocation, I can tell you that there are real dangers in that.

 

[on_the_hill]

The Church has lost an entire generation of men by lacking hard hitting sermons from Our Priests,

Once again, I fail to see how hard hitting sermons and how making Catholicism a “challenge” will impel, compel, induce, or otherwise influence men to surge into the Church.

 

[Yeoman]

Priests shouldn’t be springing inappropriate stuff on young families and they shouldn’t be endangering children’s innocence or infringing on the parental role in education.

My wife’s view as well.

But not mine.

Working in the law, I’m afraid any inappropriate stuff a Priest can address is likely to have already reached the ears of the young by way of the popular culture long, long before parents believe it has. By the time they’re out of grade school, they already have the same knowledge and exposure that most people didn’t arrive upon in earlier eras until their 20s.

One of the problems we now face is that many Priests never address this stuff at all. And parents don’t either. By the time they’re 16, they already have been told its all okay in music, film, and television, and by their friends who are doing it. Getting around to it after that is going to suggest it’s all just optional, particularly if the pulpit didn’t think it important enough to address.

Our kids now have to walk through the sewer just to get to grade school, and we shouldn’t fool ourselves otherwise.

 

[Yeoman]

The Church has lost an entire generation of men by lacking hard hitting sermons from Our Priests, allowing female altar girls into the Holy sanctuary, By our priests not urging men to get involved with the Church and Her ministry’s,

I don’t think female alter servers is detrimental, and I’ve never understood why it was so believed. Youthful alter servers themselves were an introduction as that role was at one time occupied by adults. There’s a popular belief that being an alter server is an introduction to a Priestly vocation, but I think the better evidence is that it’s an introduction to a more religious life, for male and female.

Indeed, in terms of vocations, societal changes have impacted the role and place of the female religious far more than the male. I hardly ever see a nun.

I don’t know that sermons will do it. But what I do think is that males totally lack any sort of call to action. Whether we like to admit it or not, women are far more social by nature than men anyhow, so given any organization (at least by my observation), they’ll form groups. Shoot, I’ve seen all female groups formed around high school football teams that were not only social, but embarrassingly female and matronly.

It’s not that men don’t want friends or society, but they do it differently and the way they do it has taken a huge pounding in recent decades. The old “we’ll all leave the factory floor for a beer near the plant” era died with the plants, and the societal view that there’s something improper with that. Free time has all but died in a country where working overtime is regarded as a good thing to do.

In the Church, there is the Knights, but not everyone wants to be a Knight. A lot of Catholic men just go to Mass and go home, at best. Their sons see that’s all there is to the Church.

For me, a big personal change (and I’ve always been a loyal Catholic) came when another man in my line of work asked me to be a Lector. I agreed, and that really opened up a world to me. Then I was elected to the Parish counsel, and started working with a couple of other men I got to know and like. And I got to know the Priest and his non religious interests. Guy stuff. That’s how it works for us. And for most of us, that’s why we have one or two, but only one or two, old school friends (who probably aren’t Catholic), our male in laws (who any more probably aren’t Catholic), and the guys we work with (who probably aren’t Catholic).

So I think men involved in the Parish need to get other men involved in what there is to do, and beyond that, I think men need to see the Priest in a role other than that he does Sunday mornings at 9:00 am.

 

[esieffe]

I don’t think the CC has become feminized by itself, I think men in general have become… what is the word they use now… metro something…

It is everywhere, not just the CC. At the same time you have to ask, do we WANT a nation full of knuckle draggers? Yes and no. Having a somewhat “feminized” society, you would think that would make for a more passive society. Not seeing it. Violence is only getting worse.

Maybe the macho men [such as myself] know how to keep the peace. Not being sardonic here, just speculating. I am not a sociologist.

But is the CC more feminized than the rest of the country? In my observation the answer is no. If anything, it is just the opposite. There might be exceptions about, but no.:dts:

 

[pensmama87]

Parents of young families aren’t thrilled to have sermons on inappropriate subjects that the whole family gets to sit through. Whenever a priest starts up one (and we had one on pornography just in the past year or so that was extremely marginal), it’s always an open question how inappropriate it’s going to get, and whether it’s going to be necessary to walk out and how much damage is going to be done before it’s done. Parents who carefully control children’s media consumption are not going to be happy when it’s Father who introduces inappropriate and disturbing images into their children’s minds.

Priests shouldn’t be springing inappropriate stuff on young families and they shouldn’t be endangering children’s innocence or infringing on the parental role in education.

Yeah. Our priests will use the words “pornography” or “abortion,” but that’s as far as they go - which I get. There’s a lot of kids at all our Masses, and to speak euphemistically enough to go over their heads is probably also going to assist the people who should listen, but don’t want to, to dismiss it, and to be explicit is probably going to harm those who don’t need those lessons yet. They’re in a hard place. The way they seem to handle it is actually naming the sin, but then emphasizing how to live virtuously in the opposite direction. I have a hard time faulting that approach in a situation where you’re preaching to hundreds of people of all different ages at once.

They do get into the nitty gritty more in small groups, but then again, you gotta get people to go to those.

Even so, I fully expect my oldest son to ask me what something means one of these days, and I suppose I need to come up with an age-appropriate answer…

 

[Marvin_parv]

Mothers, mothers, its not really a woman thing, its Mothers, mothers, mothers, mothers, There still trying to learn when and how to let go .

Mothers, mothers, mothers, mothers, mothers, mother`s mothers,

View attachment 22571

We never grow up View attachment 22570

______________________________________ : )

 

[Xantippe]

Yeah. Our priests will use the words “pornography” or “abortion,” but that’s as far as they go - which I get. There’s a lot of kids at all our Masses, and to speak euphemistically enough to go over their heads is probably also going to assist the people who should listen, but don’t want to, to dismiss it, and to be explicit is probably going to harm those who don’t need those lessons yet. They’re in a hard place. The way they seem to handle it is actually naming the sin, but then emphasizing how to live virtuously in the opposite direction. I have a hard time faulting that approach in a situation where you’re preaching to hundreds of people of all different ages at once.

They do get into the nitty gritty more in small groups, but then again, you gotta get people to go to those.

Even so, I fully expect my oldest son to ask me what something means one of these days, and I suppose I need to come up with an age-appropriate answer…

That sounds about right.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t think female alter servers is detrimental, and I’ve never understood why it was so believed. Youthful alter servers themselves were an introduction as that role was at one time occupied by adults. There’s a popular belief that being an alter server is an introduction to a Priestly vocation, but I think the better evidence is that it’s an introduction to a more religious life, for male and female.

Indeed, in terms of vocations, societal changes have impacted the role and place of the female religious far more than the male. I hardly ever see a nun.

I don’t know that sermons will do it. But what I do think is that males totally lack any sort of call to action. Whether we like to admit it or not, women are far more social by nature than men anyhow, so given any organization (at least by my observation), they’ll form groups. Shoot, I’ve seen all female groups formed around high school football teams that were not only social, but embarrassingly female and matronly.

It’s not that men don’t want friends or society, but they do it differently and the way they do it has taken a huge pounding in recent decades. The old “we’ll all leave the factory floor for a beer near the plant” era died with the plants, and the societal view that there’s something improper with that. Free time has all but died in a country where working overtime is regarded as a good thing to do.

In the Church, there is the Knights, but not everyone wants to be a Knight. A lot of Catholic men just go to Mass and go home, at best. Their sons see that’s all there is to the Church.

For me, a big personal change (and I’ve always been a loyal Catholic) came when another man in my line of work asked me to be a Lector. I agreed, and that really opened up a world to me. Then I was elected to the Parish counsel, and started working with a couple of other men I got to know and like. And I got to know the Priest and his non religious interests. Guy stuff. That’s how it works for us. And for most of us, that’s why we have one or two, but only one or two, old school friends (who probably aren’t Catholic), our male in laws (who any more probably aren’t Catholic), and the guys we work with (who probably aren’t Catholic).

So I think men involved in the Parish need to get other men involved in what there is to do, and beyond that, I think men need to see the Priest in a role other than that he does Sunday mornings at 9:00 am.

That sounds very sensible.

 

[Yeoman]

I don’t think the CC has become feminized by itself, I think men in general have become… what is the word they use now… metro something…

It is everywhere, not just the CC. At the same time you have to ask, do we WANT a nation full of knuckle draggers? Yes and no. Having a somewhat “feminized” society, you would think that would make for a more passive society. Not seeing it. Violence is only getting worse.

Maybe the macho men [such as myself] know how to keep the peace. Not being sardonic here, just speculating. I am not a sociologist.

But is the CC more feminized than the rest of the country? In my observation the answer is no. If anything, it is just the opposite. There might be exceptions about, but no.:dts:

I agree with you in part, although not about violence. For what it’s worth, we live in one of the least violent eras in western history. The perception is that violence is increasing, but statistically it’s at an all time low. Indeed this is true even globally, in spite of what we see in the Middle East. And here in the US this is by far the least violent we’ve ever been, in spite of watching the national news would lead us to believe.

But otherwise, on the feminization of men, I agree. Looking around downtown, and traveling through airports and what not, I see a lot of men who, even if trying to look fairly “male” by current standards would come across as downright girly by the standard of just twenty or so years ago. Even physically a lot of men now present as very waif like and feminine.

Men have suffered marginalization to a massive degree since the early 1980s, whatever the cause. A lot of formerly “manly” occupations are no longer around. Women are in nearly ever role in the workplace, and I don’t think we can or should complain about that, but that has at least a little effect. And old guy out of work habits and behaviors are much less common, in part because there’s much less time than there once was.

I do think this all has a peculiar impact in the Church, but there’s hardly a way to express it without coming across incorrectly. For example, in an era when our fellow brothers in the Middle East are being killed for their Faith, about all that you are even going to vaguely hear in the pews might be some vague participation in something for “Peace”. I’m not saying that Peace is bad, but what I am saying is that, for example, the only thing I’ve heard related to Christian men and women being killed for their Faith in Syria and Iraq came when from the Social Justice Ministry head who was encouraging an interfaith participation in a March for Peace. That’s very subtle, but an interfaith March for Peace is sort of a feminine, or perhaps 1960sish, response to a crisis that we’re otherwise going to ignore, it seems. Nobody is going to even suggest that we pray for the defeat of ISIL and the conversion of the Moslems, for example, which is probably more of a male reaction.

Well, having probably offended everyone I’ll drop off now.

 

[Sarcelle]

I look at it as the loss of certain values that may be traditionally attributed to masculinity - assertiveness, “sticking to one’s guns”, being ready to confront, etc. These values are looked down upon in favor of “giving in to keep the peace”. Just look at the threads here at CAF about things that could cause scandal (whether it be attending marriages that go against Church rules or acknowledging immoral living situations) for examples; and if someone does confront or “call someone out” or defends one’s self or even shows logical consequences, one risks getting reported. It’s what Michael Voris calls “The Church of Nice”.

I remember a priest once saying he used the word “humankind” because using the word “humanity” did not satisfy the feminists. Some fortitude that shows!

So you think that keeping the peace at all cost even at the expense of hiding the truth is feminine?