Catholicism – Too Feminized?

[Sarcelle]

I suppose. The words “masculine” and “feminine” just refer to those characteristics that relate to the sex. Just because you have masculine characteristics as a woman doesn’t make you less of a woman. You’re just you; as God made you!

This idea seems to be lost on some.

The idea that women are individuals not standard issue appliances made by God for the convenience of the menfolk is kind of a new idea for some men.

Disclaimer: I am not making any reference to posters here.

 

[pianistclare]

So what roles are suited for women?

Been waiting for an answer to that since this thread opened.

 

[Sugabee43]

For me, the better question is, “In what role does God want me to do His will?” Then it doesn’t matter what anyone here on earth thinks!! As long as I remain in His will, that is what’s important.

 

[pianistclare]

For me, the better question is, “In what role does God want me to do His will?” Then it doesn’t matter what anyone here on earth thinks!! As long as I remain in His will, that is what’s important.

Well yeah, but the OP apparently is trying to make some point based on the writings of a certain Cardinal. Separate topic.

 

[Sugabee43]

Well yeah, but the OP apparently is trying to make some point based on the writings of a certain Cardinal. Separate topic.

Hm. But in my way of thinking, it isn’t a separate topic. There are certain roles that are exclusively male (priest, deacon) and exclusively female (nun/other female orders). Then there are other roles that could be either (administrative/formation/social services). If you’re seeking and doing what God wills for you, I believe you will most certainly know your role in your life, and it will mesh with God’s will for the life of His Church. It’s when people want to do other than His will that trouble occurs.

 

[Sarcelle]

Interesting

As a classical feminist, how would you define masculinity and femininity?

How do you define masculinity and femininity?

How does it play out in real life?

To make it more challenging, how does it play out in the life of a single man or woman who is not a parent?

 

[ProVobis]

Oh, good heavens, YES YES YES!!! This drives me absolutely BATTY!!! I grew up in the Episcopal church singing many of these old hymns, and to hear them ‘gender-neutralized’ irks me to no end!!! That is NOT how the songwriter wrote it, and it ought to be left alone. I consider myself a classical feminist, and if some women are so easily offended that the song doesn’t “include” their gender (which it does), or written in an old style - well, they need to grow UP.

I do my very best to sing the proper words as loudly as possible!!!

Why? Is God hard of hearing?

 

[ShadowBoxer]

So what roles are suited for women?

The usual answer I get is housewife. Nothing wrong with that but that seems to be the only role reserved for women. So we don’t think of it as degrading but restricting. After all not all of us are wives.

The Church certainly does not teach that all women are supposed to be housewives.

True. Here are few professions that come to my mind right away besides housewife that I believe women in general are naturally better suited for: Nurse, teacher, social worker, therapist, interior decorator/designer.

 

[Sarcelle]

True. Here are few professions that come to my mind right away besides housewife that I believe women in general are naturally better suited for: Nurse, teacher, social worker, therapist, interior decorator/designer.

I am an engineer which is a field that is predominantly male. I have what you call high functioning autism and have limited social skills. I do not think I will be very good at these nurturing fields that you recommend for women.

So where does this leave me?

 

[ProVobis]

The usual answer I get is housewife.

That’s the answer I would give for myself.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

I am an engineer which is a field that is predominantly male. I have what you call high functioning autism and have limited social skills. I do not think I will be very good at these nurturing fields that you recommend for women.

So where does this leave me?

Simply because your profession is not one that I explicitly listed does not mean that I consider it to be a strictly male profession. As technology has advanced it has allowed for an ever greater division of labor. This in turn has resulted in an increase in the number of what I would call gender-neutral professions where men and women can perform at an equal level. From what I know about autistic people, and I don’t pretend to know a lot, engineering seems like a profession where someone with such a condition would excel.

On other side of the equation, I could could be in an accident tomorrow and end up in a wheelchair. Certain professions to which men are better suited such as fire fighter or contractor wouldn’t exactly be an option anymore. I would have to work with the hand I’d been dealt.

 

[Xantippe]

Simply because your profession is not one that I explicitly listed does not mean that I consider it to be a strictly male profession. As technology has advanced it has allowed for an ever greater division of labor. This in turn has resulted in an increase in the number of what I would call gender-neutral professions where men and women can perform at an equal level. From what I know about autistic people, and I don’t pretend to know a lot, engineering seems like a profession where someone with such a condition would excel.

On other side of the equation, I could could be in an accident tomorrow and end up in a wheelchair. Certain professions to which men are better suited such as fire fighter or contractor wouldn’t exactly be an option anymore. I would have to work with the hand I’d been dealt.

Right. And only a small fraction of men are up to the physical and intellectual demands of being a firefighter. In fact, that’s true of quite a number of professions. On the one hand, percentage-wise, there aren’t a lot of female physicists. On the other hand, there aren’t a lot of physicists period–the sort of talents necessary to be a physicist are very uncommon in the general population.

(I was just looking at a list of female Nobel prize winners, and it’s interesting how there are only two Nobel prize winning female physicists, four Nobel prize winning female chemists (two of which are members of the Curie clan!), and then a dozen female Nobel prize winners in Physiology/Medicine. It’s a very interesting progression!)

Edited to add: Marie Curie alone represents 50% of female physics Nobel prize winners and 25% of female chemistry Nobel prize winners.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

True. Here are few professions that come to my mind right away besides housewife that I believe women in general are naturally better suited for: Nurse, teacher, social worker, therapist, interior decorator/designer.

I disagree wholeheartedly. The value that men bring to those professions cannot be overstated.

A couple of years ago my husband was diagnosed with cancer. After 3 surgeries and 5 months of chemo, he has a clean bill of health. But for about a year, we were in the hospital at least twice a week for tests, appointments, consultations, treatments, you name it. Virtually every nurse we encountered was female, and they were wonderful. But when he had to have a bone marrow biopsy, the registered nurse assisting the PA was a man. He related to my husband in a completely different way than any of his other caretakers. For those few hours he stopped being “poor thing” and instead was a normal 20 something man with a lot of interests who was building a career and planning for a family - he just happened to be sick. The whole tone was different, and it meant the world to both my husband and I. It’s not to say he was better, it was just a different interaction. To this day, my husband will tell anyone who will listen about how we need more male nurses and what an impact that experience had on him.

Less anecdotally, there is a lot of research showing the benefits of having male schoolteachers, especially for boys. Boys are falling behind in schools, and a big reason is that men don’t have the same seat at the table of education that women do.

Personally, I would rather have a male therapist simply because I know the drill and I would rather have someone take a more medical and less personal approach, but that’s simply a personal preference.

The United States is so diverse both in demographics and life experience. What meets your needs or what works better for you is not necessarily what will be good for others, or even fit their family, lifestyle, culture, or values. Given that, there is absolutely a place for people of either gender in (almost) every sphere. The fact that you believe women are “generally better suited to” the careers you mentioned does not mean that I as a woman am personally suited for any of them, or that someone (even gasp a man!) wouldn’t prefer a male provider for any number of legitimate reasons.

 

[ProVobis]

On the one hand, percentage-wise, there aren’t a lot of female physicists. On the other hand, there aren’t a lot of physicists period–the sort of talents necessary to be a physicist are very uncommon in the general population.

Being a physics major myself with followup physics work in industry, I can vouch for this. My university physics class had three women, two being foreigners.

 

[EasterJoy]

Pretty much, yeah. I believe men and women have different roles suited to their respective strengths. I don’t know why so many people see this as degrading to women. If I say that a hammer is better suited to drive nails than a screwdriver, have I implied that the screwdriver is any less useful? Sorry, just needed to vent a little bit.

Actually, you can’t get by with just one kind of screwdriver. A jeweler’s screwdriver does things a full-sized screwdriver cannot, and vice versa. Subtle differences can be big differences.

I also do not think that the problem of “over-feminizing” and the problem of “over-masculinizing” are mutually exclusive, regardless of how you want to define those two terms. There are lots of ways to have your yin and your yang out of whack (to borrow a term outside of Christianity that is very useful all the same), and having too much of one and not enough of the other aren’t the only ways. What does not improve things is to take that yin-yang symbol and imagine you can (or would want to) spin it to a uniform grey. It doesn’t work like that.

Human males and females are not equal and opposite. They are equal and complementary. There is a difference. The former implies a competition, whereas the latter implies that neither is whole without the other.

 

[on_the_hill]

That is a sad observation.

Why sad? I have a busy and hectic life. I can’t magically carve out time no matter if the priest asks me to or not. It’s the reality. Fifteen years from now it might be different. Who knows?

 

[Xantippe]

Why sad? I have a busy and hectic life. I can’t magically carve out time no matter if the priest asks me to or not. It’s the reality. Fifteen years from now it might be different. Who knows?

Yes. Years ago, my husband and I were new in town, had a five year old and a two year old, and we made a point to meet with our new pastor, a very wise and prudent man. We asked him what we could do for him. He told us that the best thing we can do for the Church is to bring our children up right.

 

[on_the_hill]

Of course not; the “feminization” referred to here doesn’t mean women participating in the Church. The Cardinal specifically talked about neglecting to emphasize the importance of the father, manly character, etc.

You mean this is the issue? After 12 pages of discussion, feminization comes down to whether or not men are emphasized enough? What is everyone debating then?

Maybe the Church is to blame. We spend a lot of time on Mary and basically ignore Joseph. Joseph is eternally in the background. A supporting actor. An understudy. The second string quarterback with the clipboard and the headset. He did his job, took care of Mary and Jesus without much more than a mention here and there. He was a mensch. A presumably hardworking, honorable fellow who seems to have kept his counsel to himself and didn’t get any more involved than was necessary.

And frankly, (don’t interrupt, I’m almost on a roll here) this is the character that is illustrated to us men as an example of what is expected of us when priests talk about Joseph on the rare occasions that they do: Basically leading up to Christmas, when Joseph packs his pregnant wife to go to Bethlehem for the census, when Joseph has a dream to lead his wife and son to Egypt, when Joseph looks for Jesus in the caravan.

Joseph drives the minivan. He has a day job. We are “called” to be Joseph when the Church addresses us. But the immersion into Christianity was left to Mary and Jesus.

Of course, I’m not complaining. Que sera sera. It is what it is.

And if we’re to conclude that Catholicism is too feminized, let’s broaden our scope to include Christianity. I have a number of Protestant friends, some of whom go on mission trips. Who goes? The wives and the daughters.

 

[on_the_hill]

Yes. Years ago, my husband and I were new in town, had a five year old and a two year old, and we made a point to meet with our new pastor, a very wise and prudent man. We asked him what we could do for him. He told us that the best thing we can do for the Church is to bring our children up right.

I simply cannot make a commitment to it. My wife works a lot of evenings. Our closest family is four hours away. My round trip commute to work can be as long as two hours sometimes. There are sports, school activities, and weekends to visit grandparents.

I like my life. I’m not complaining. But there are only so many hours in a day.

 

[Xantippe]

Speaking of masculinity and femininity and church, I was just remembering a story I heard from a Protestant friend about the old church that they eventually left.

The pastor of the Protestant church had gotten deeply into cage fighting and seemed not that interested in the Bible, but very interested in his cage fighting.

Interestingly, it looks like that is actually a thing among our Protestant brethren–there’s even been a documentary made about the phenomenon:

christiantoday.com/article/christian.cage.fighting.film.pitches.pastor.vs.pastor/40750.htm

"The trailer (below) suggests that the practice partly responds to “feminised Christianity”, with one fighter telling the camera that “tough guys need Jesus too.”