Catholicism – Too Feminized?

[Xantippe]

I don’t think.that is reason.why you have less.boys as altar servers. Your suggestion is basically that numbers.of.altar boys were high and that after the church allowed altar girls the number of altar boys went down. At least in the parishes that I have participated it has been the other way around. The parishes was forced to start looking for altar girls because boys stopped being altar boys. At least in my experience most altar boys were altar boys because their mothers told.them they had to.do it. All my cousins were altar boys and all but one.did it because their mothers dragged them to so it. In our current culture most Catholic parents don’t expect their kids to.be fully active in the church as in the past, so for most Catholic.parents is if the kid wants do it. Since parents stopped expecting their boys to become altar boys and just left it to their choice, less and.less.boys were enrolling for.it. and it got to.a.point where there weren’t enough so the priest had to look for.girls.

That sounds very plausible.

 

[ProVobis]

Maybe you’re right but FWIW I think there is a difference between feminism and femininity.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

That sounds very plausible.

I suspect anecdotally it is a bit of both. As a guy, I am and always have been attracted to uniquely male “things.” Altar serving was no different. In the mind of a young boy, here was nothing “special” when anyone could do it. I was very attracted to my all-boys high school for the same reason.

However, again anecdotally, I don’t think there is a lot of support for sons to be heavily involved in the Church, or even to consider the Priesthood. I know of too many mothers and fathers who were horrified at the notion of their child (sometimes, their only son) considering the Priesthood. Oh they know we need good Priests (and nuns), but not *my *boy?

I can’t think of anything that would make me prouder as a parent than a religious vocation (if they were called to that). I’d gladly sacrifice having grand-children if it meant my children accepted God’s call. But again, they need to answer His call, wherever it leads them - married, single, or religious life.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well, I have been to A LOT of different parishes over the years and had a lot of different pastors, and it’s quite obvious that pastors generally have a huge influence on liturgy–see, for example, pianistclare’s list of oddities.

For the pastors that I’ve seen most of, it’s clear that Father’s personal preferences have a big influence on the liturgy and the church building. So, for instance, if a pastor does a Latin Mass, it’s probably because he likes the Latin Mass. If he acquires and wears a beautiful collection of new traditionalish vestments and beretta, it’s probably because he likes traditionalish vestments and beretta. If he reverses the Creed and the homily in order, it’s because he likes doing that. If the church winds up with a beautiful Divine Mercy or nice new stained glass, it’s because that’s what Father values. Etc. None of that happens by accident.

Priests aren’t usually just bystanders in their parishes. Although it’s very handy to pretend to be when people come grumbling to him about the liturgy.

I did not ever say that priests were bystanders in their parishes or that they have no influence. You said, “If that sort of thing shows up in a parish (and I’ve never seen it), it’s because that’s what Father likes.”

That is simply not true. I know pastors who allow their liturgy committees to have things the pastors would never have chosen to suit their own tastes in a million years because the parishioners want it and the priest does see a reason to forbid it, as he does not give his own preference such a high priority as that. Yes, he sets aside his personal preference for what others want! Imagine that! I don’t know why this is so hard to accept.

 

[EasterJoy]

The Catholic Church does not allow any female leadership. It does not openly welcome the voices of women. From the Vatican down to the small town parish, women have no authority in the church. An organization that is so dismissive of women MUST emphasize their importance in the family and must remember that women are more vulnerable, and have been oppressed many times throughout history, no patronizing quotations needed. If the Catholic Church were to maintain their hard-line stance on women and not emphasize that there is a dignified place for them, the church would very quickly devolve into something that more resembles ISIS than its current form.

It seems like you want to keep everything the same and just add a few more ego strokes for men. That’s fine. But the church can hardly be called “feminized”.

Ah, no leadership allowed…this must be why the Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon has a female chancellor and for a great many years had a female director of the Office of Divine Worship not to mention having women in other administrative positions open to the laity.

You are not talking about a difference in power between men and women. You are talking about a difference between clergy and laity, and you are insisting that the laity have “no dignified place.” That implies that you buy into the secular view that dignity rests with those who have the power to make other people do what they want.

As for women having no voice in a small-town parish, I have to gather that you have never belonged to a small parish. Yes, the women have a voice.

 

[EasterJoy]

It’s funny you mention that, because there are parts of the internet where guys like to dream at length about the fembots of the future and how easy life will be without having to deal with real women.

*“A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.” *- Gloria Steinem

 

[clem456]

The crux of what is criticized is the mentality of equality=sameness, which is the hallmark of 3rd wave feminism. That movement measures girl “power” to the degree that women do things men do. Many other women have criticized that barometer as an insult because it subconsciously says that man-ness is the ultimate standard for anyone to achieve. Thus, when Card. Burke was critical of female altar servers, for example, this is often motivated by a push for “sameness,” whereas altar serving historically had been an opportunity for boys to discern the priesthood, and that unique path and purpose for altar serving has largely been lost (even if female altar servers are technically licit). Cardinal Burke is indeed referring to a particular breed of feminism, not the mere influence of females. So I stand by my statement and reject that it is hyperbolic.

This philosophy of power also measures people according to utility. If a person is not powerful in worldly ways then they can’t possibly be fulfilled or useful. The world will never understand how the Church sees authority, because the world associates authority with oppressive power, not service. (and this is not to gloss over the real fact that women are oppressed).

This is a part of a larger dangerous philosophy that fails to appreciate the uniqueness of every human being, instead insisting on the “sameness” you talk about, which can never be obtained. Human beings are not “the same”. We are equal in rights and dignity, but each person is unique. Male and female are unique and complementary, we are not “the same”.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

I know this may come as a shock, but fighting, is indeed wrong. Under any circumstance. Did you get a memo that there was going to be a second crusade or something?

Psalms 18:39 For You have girded me with strength for battle; You have subdued under me those who rose up against me.

2 Samuel 10:12 Be strong, and let us fight bravely for our people and the cities of our God. The Lord will do what is good in his sight.

Joel 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weakling say, “I am strong!”

Exodus 15:3 The LORD is a warrior; the LORD is his name.

Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle.

I rest my case.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Ah, no leadership allowed…this must be why the Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon has a female chancellor and for a great many years had a female director of the Office of Divine Worship not to mention having women in other administrative positions open to the laity.

The chancellor in my home diocese is also female.

 

[EasterJoy]

I know this may come as a shock, but fighting, is indeed wrong. Under any circumstance. Did you get a memo that there was going to be a second crusade or something?

Well, it would be a shock if I believed you, but I don’t.

Where did you get the memo saying that fighting is wrong under any circumstance–with a period, no less!–including the circumstances in which you learn how to do it in self-defense, as a form of self-mastery, or as a well-regulated sport?

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

Well, it would be a shock if I believed you, but I don’t.

Where did you get the memo saying that fighting is wrong under any circumstance–with a period, no less!–including the circumstances in which you learn how to do it in self-defense, as a form of self-mastery, or as a well-regulated sport?

Careful; them’s fightin’ words.

 

[pianistclare]

Psalms 18:39 For You have girded me with strength for battle; You have subdued under me those who rose up against me.

2 Samuel 10:12 Be strong, and let us fight bravely for our people and the cities of our God. The Lord will do what is good in his sight.

Joel 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weakling say, “I am strong!”

Exodus 15:3 The LORD is a warrior; the LORD is his name.

Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle.

I rest my case.

I didn’t think you were speaking of spiritual warfare.

 

[pianistclare]

Well, it would be a shock if I believed you, but I don’t.

Where did you get the memo saying that fighting is wrong under any circumstance–with a period, no less!–including the circumstances in which you learn how to do it in self-defense, as a form of self-mastery, or as a well-regulated sport?

Self defense is not fighting.
Fighting as a word, implies un provoked aggression toward someone.
I still take offense that people like to call the sport of Boxing, “the fights”.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

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Ah, no leadership allowed…this must be why the Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon has a female chancellor and for a great many years had a female director of the Office of Divine Worship not to mention having women in other administrative positions open to the laity.

You are not talking about a difference in power between men and women. You are talking about a difference between clergy and laity, and you are insisting that the laity have “no dignified place.” That implies that you buy into the secular view that dignity rests with those who have the power to make other people do what they want.

As for women having no voice in a small-town parish, I have to gather that you have never belonged to a small parish. Yes, the women have a voice.

1. I never said that dignity rests with those in power. I said that if an institution is going to be that closed off to women and tell them that they are inherently unfit for leadership or power, there is naturally going to need to be an emphasis on what women are fit to do, and what dignity there is in those things. This was in response to a poster complaining about priests emphasizing the importance of women in family life.
2. You’re conflating responsibility and influence with authority. Like I said earlier, just because women do the boots on the ground work and run offices does not give them authority. At all. The church hierarchy sets the agenda, determines the mission, and women carry it out.
3. A lot of women pour their hearts, souls, and energy into the church knowing full well that no matter how faithful they are or how well they do, they will never be trusted with the same authority that the men are, even men less faithful and less competent than they are. To say that the sacrifice these women make to do these things is “feminizing” (whatever the heck that means! It seems no one can really say) such a male oriented institution is an insult to those women.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

I didn’t think you were speaking of spiritual warfare.

Spiritual warfare can sometimes turn physical. I seriously doubt King David was talking about spiritual warfare when he wrote that Psalm.

 

[clem456]

---

1. I never said that dignity rests with those in power. I said that if an institution is going to be that closed off to women and tell them that they are inherently unfit for leadership or power,
   …

The Church does not define power as the world defines it.
Consider, we believe Jesus redeemed the world by dying on an instrument of punishment and torture. Service is the source of power.
The Pope is the servant of the servants of God. The fact that he has ecclesial authority does not mean he has power over others, as the world understands it.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m a parish slacker like onthehill (and also a school slacker).

I actually do have a very strong calling to do a personal finance class for young couples (probably Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University) and have had the calling for quite a number of years. I feel really passionate about making sure that young couples get a good start in life. When I finally got my head above water with home obligations, I started the wheels in motion for the course.

Here’s some of what I did:

1. I took the course I want to offer a number of years ago.
2. our family gives nice fat checks to our parish (a college chaplaincy)
3. we’ve had lunch and/or brunch before with the pastor
4. I emailed with the pastor this summer about the program
5. I got print materials for the program to share with my pastor
6. My husband and I had lunch with the pastor in the past month and I talked about the program and I showed him the materials and the kit.
7. I’m supposed to check in with the pastor in a few weeks and then we can start scheduling for the program. My husband and I are offering some full scholarships and partial scholarships.

In my limited experience, feeding the pastor is a very important component for getting buy-in.

So, am I “feminizing” the Church?

 

[Sarcelle]

I’m a parish slacker like onthehill (and also a school slacker).

I actually do have a very strong calling to do a personal finance class for young couples (probably Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University) and have had the calling for quite a number of years. I feel really passionate about making sure that young couples get a good start in life. When I finally got my head above water with home obligations, I started the wheels in motion for the course.

Here’s some of what I did:

1. I took the course I want to offer a number of years ago.
2. our family gives nice fat checks to our parish (a college chaplaincy)
3. we’ve had lunch and/or brunch before with the pastor
4. I emailed with the pastor this summer about the program
5. I got print materials for the program to share with my pastor
6. My husband and I had lunch with the pastor in the past month and I talked about the program and I showed him the materials and the kit.
7. I’m supposed to check in with the pastor in a few weeks and then we can start scheduling for the program. My husband and I are offering some full scholarships and partial scholarships.

In my limited experience, feeding the pastor is a very important component for getting buy-in.

So, am I “feminizing” the Church?

Good question. I also volunteer for the prayer ministry. Am I also feminizing the Church?

 

[Bill_Martin]

I’m a parish slacker like onthehill (and also a school slacker).

I actually do have a very strong calling to do a personal finance class for young couples (probably Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University) and have had the calling for quite a number of years. I feel really passionate about making sure that young couples get a good start in life. When I finally got my head above water with home obligations, I started the wheels in motion for the course.

Here’s some of what I did:

1. I took the course I want to offer a number of years ago.
2. our family gives nice fat checks to our parish (a college chaplaincy)
3. we’ve had lunch and/or brunch before with the pastor
4. I emailed with the pastor this summer about the program
5. I got print materials for the program to share with my pastor
6. My husband and I had lunch with the pastor in the past month and I talked about the program and I showed him the materials and the kit.
7. I’m supposed to check in with the pastor in a few weeks and then we can start scheduling for the program. My husband and I are offering some full scholarships and partial scholarships.

In my limited experience, feeding the pastor is a very important component for getting buy-in.

So, am I “feminizing” the Church?

Good question. I also volunteer for the prayer ministry. Am I also feminizing the Church?

Of course not; the “feminization” referred to here doesn’t mean women participating in the Church. The Cardinal specifically talked about neglecting to emphasize the importance of the father, manly character, etc.

 

[Xantippe]

Of course not; the “feminization” referred to here doesn’t mean women participating in the Church. The Cardinal specifically talked about neglecting to emphasize the importance of the father, manly character, etc.

What is “manly character”?

I have the awful feeling that a lot of perfectly good men would flunk whatever definition is offered, just like a lot of perfectly good women would flunk whatever is the definition of “feminine character.”

I feel like the definitions of “manly” and “feminine” are generally such that very few people are going to pass, or there’s going to be a lot of hammering of square pegs into round holes.