Catholicism – Too Feminized?

[phil19034]

ON a related topic, researchers have discovered a spike in mortality in men between 45-54 years of age.

Observed causes of increased death rates read like a whos-who of depression demons:
alcoholism, suicide, drug abuse, diabetes etc…
Researchers note this is the age of “mid-life crisis” when men are confronted with the real things of life like illness, pain, death, assessment of success/failure. I don’t have the link but it’s a recent story.

Maybe men need something more fulfilling to do than golf n football

Amen!

 

[edwest2]

I’m not saying that it needs to be 50-50. I’m simply saying that environment should be that men who want to participate should not feel out of place. We should be doing thing to promote men’s groups, boys discipleship groups + girls discipleship groups and women groups. But I also do not feel that men do not voice their concerns. I think they simply fade away. And again - I’m not saying that this happens in all parishes. It does not happen in mine (but it did happen in the one I grew up in - but less so today).

NOTE: I’m not saying that the parishes are the reason why so many men stop going to Church. But we need to find ways to bring them back (men’s groups, etc). Also, when more men are involved in parish life, more boys stay involved in the Church. But when boys feel called to altar server, be a lector, be a CCD teacher, etc but feel like that just for women, there is a problem. MOST of the problem is in the boy/man’s mind. However, the parishes might be unintentionally strengthening that belief.

For example: when Father needs more lectors or servers or EMHCs does he quickly go to TSTs (The Same Twenty or Thirty) who he knows will say yes (who are typically mostly female)? Or does he seek people out who are not currently participating, who he believes will do a great job (whether male or female) and ask them to participate? If a wife is very involved, does Father approach the husband to invite him to become more involved?

Also, when new people do volunteer (whether male or female) are their ideas welcomed by the lay leaders or do the new people feel like all their ideas are always getting shot down?

Again, it’s not about having equal numbers… it’s about feeling like an equal member of the parish community.

I don’t think equal is the right word. It’s clear that you’re referring to a systemic ‘shooting down’ of the ideas of some and a kind of unofficial hierarchy has developed that has decided how certain things should be handled, or not even dealt with.

I think a dialogue with Father is in order. Simple, accurate, polite.

On the other hand, when I was growing up, stay at home moms was the norm. Women had the time to volunteer, and men found the time to be involved in various men’s groups, from the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and others. They each had banners that were placed by the very front pew on the left. But then disaster struck. Fertile ground was laid for No-Fault Divorce. A lot of couples split up, abortion was promoted more and more as “No Big Deal,” and the same with sex outside of marriage. In the 1970s, Adult Bookstores selling porn opened everywhere, along with strip clubs and topless bars. And the radicals heavily preached a “forget about the Church, don’t listen to your parents and Don’t Trust Anyone Over 30!”

So, we have at least 3 generations of young men who don’t know how to be men. Who don’t know how to have a relationship with the opposite sex. In the 1970s, dads would call their sons: “Son, if you love the girl, why don’t you get married instead of living in sin? Me and your Mom never taught you this. The Church didn’t teach you this.” The reply: “Dad, you don’t understand. Things are different now. Things have changed.”

So a lot of families disintegrated, and there are are too many Catholics who believed the false preachers and got abortions or got divorced or became estranged from their ‘overly Catholic’ parents because the other lie, and I heard this, was: “When I turn 18, I don’t gotta listen to you anymore.” And too many who haven’t been to Confession for 30 years.

Of course, this isn’t true of all Catholic men but as Catholic Radio host, Al Kresta, put it: “Catholics have had amnesia for the past 40 years.” I was taught to live out my beliefs 7 days a week. The media does not promote good role models anymore. So, bring up your concerns. And yes, there are Catholic men who are doing things but they rarely network. As the Bible tells us; encourage one another.

Who is teaching young men to be good, authentic Catholic men?

amazon.com/Be-Man-Becoming-God-Created/dp/1586174037

Ed

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Has it ever been the case in the last 500 years that Catholic laymen have been heavily involved in parish life?

I suspect that laymen have never had a large role in Catholic parish, rather than that they had one and have now been elbowed aside by women.

I share in concerns about a “feminized” Catholicism – but strongly disagree that men have been “elbowed aside” by women. Rather, dedicated women have filled the vacuum created by disinterested, disconnected, indifferent, spiritually and physically lazy men.

 

[pianistclare]

Some points to consider coming from a person who has worked in parishes for many many years:

Everyone believes “they” know a better way to do everything. However, the pastor’s way is what happens. Every time. Just because someone shows up at the parish office offering their new way, and the volunteers to make it happen, doesn’t mean that bingo! You’re in.
If you have been rebuffed, it’s not that. It’s that the longtime parish secretary probably knows well what the Pastor’s vision is, and is preventing you from having a disappointing encounter with him. Many people leave the church because they don’t get their way. Honest. The parish secretary or any of the church’s employees are the buffer between a busy pastor and are often, the bearer of bad news. It’s just that way. I get told “tell them NO. Or more often “why in the world would we do THAT?” End of story. Your approach is everything.
It takes a long time to train volunteers in a church office. Not everyone is allowed to shred cancelled checks and personnel records.
Not everyone knows the way the bulletin website works.
Not everyone can (name removed by moderator)ut data into ParishSoft for confidentiality reasons.
We can make our own copies. It’s not that time consuming. There are no old fashioned slow machines anymore. Not everyone can log parish records. You want to lick envelopes? That happens a couple times a year. We’ll keep you in mind.
Conversely. we scrape the little candle cups from the Easter Vigil of dried on dripped was each year to save the parish money. Father doesn’t like the staff to do that. He thinks we should “find” volunteers” to do that. Many of the volunteers don’t want to do the small stuff. They want to make policy. I need people to get certified to teach catechism classes. You’re think I was asking people to cut off their arm! No. no Way.me? Work with kids? NO WAY.
Seriously, Pastors welcome volunteers of any shape size or gender. If one wants to do something, come on down! Want to be an EMHC? Great. Take the training class, get your certificate form the Archdiocese and we’ll put you on the roster. We don’t hold special preference for women. Indeed, most of them are men at our place.
Case in point: A physician in our parish, came to parent’s night at our Teen group last night. He insisted that it would work way better for him and his family to have Mass at Sat night at 5PM, with LifeTeen immediately after. One stop shopping.
Here’s the deal: His kids go to a tiny private school with no homecomings, they are on no teams, they are in no extracurriculars that inhibit a normal teen’s schedule on Saturday evenings. So He thinks it’s OK to have our teen catechesis dwindle to nothing to make it easier to do for him. We don’t cater to kids, but we are realistic. We go with the needs of the many. It’s more important to have a well attended group and we put a lot of thought into how to best serve them. Sunday nights are free for just about everyone across the board.
This is just one example of people who complain, but offer no consideration for others, or circumstances, (like facility rentals, volunteer availability, pastor scheduling, etc). Everyone thinks their idea is the ONE that will change everything.
My point is, the pastor makes decisions. Volunteers come out of the woodwork. The only volunteers that are not welcomed with open arms, are the ones who want to change the direction of a parish, change the pastor’s vision, or in general want to advance something that might not necessarily serve the parish at that time.
I’ve said it a zillion times: Behind every successful priest is an army of women doing the heavy lifting.
Our K of C do amazing work in the community. They fix little things that the pastor would have to hire contractors for. They save us a lot of money and they distribute that money in a number of ways. I’m not aware of their membership being closed.

The church is not feminized. That’s just silly.
I have worked for a pittance for years. This is the first time I’ve EVER been full time. It took 30 years. Women shouldn’t really have to work under those conditions, but married women are more prone to smile and say “yes Father. It’s fine Father”.
I love my job. Don’t shoot the messenger.

 

[Exiled_Child]

I don’t know that many priests who *aren’t *masculine.

This has absolutely been my experience, as well.

Catholicism could actually stand a bit more feminization, in my opinion.

 

[edwest2]

I share in concerns about a “feminized” Catholicism – but strongly disagree that men have been “elbowed aside” by women. Rather, dedicated women have filled the vacuum created by disinterested, disconnected, indifferent, spiritually and physically lazy men.

Assumptions are rarely accurate. We can never say “They’re all like that.” And women can play a role in motivating men. We’re out to solve a problem and cooperate. I recall Mass attendance gradually dropping in the '70s, '80s and especially, the '90s. Men didn’t get lazier, they turned their attention to other things, especially immoral sexual activity and buying stuff. At that time, the Church parking lots emptied and Mall parking lots had cars for as far as you could see. Spirituality was replaced by “get lots of stuff while you can still enjoy it” and enjoy porn.

A local priest recorded a session with the Men’s group at his Parish which was played on Catholic Radio. After a prayer and welcome, he asked a simple question: “For any men who are not out there evangelizing others, why not?” He challenged them. Programs were created.

For any man reading this who feels called to act, act. For any wife or other female relative, encourage the men you know to get involved.

God bless,
Ed

 

[phil19034]

On the other hand, when I was growing up, stay at home moms was the norm. Women had the time to volunteer, and men found the time to be involved in various men’s groups, from the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and others. Who is teaching young men to be good, authentic Catholic men?

I think what you say here is very profound. I was reading American Church: The Remarkable Rise, Meteoric Fall, and Uncertain Future of Catholicism in America by Russell Shaw, published by the Ignatius Press recently. I think the destruction of the “Catholic Ghettos” had a extremely negative impact on Catholic Men. The number of Catholic Men’s groups (whether Sacred Heart or Catholic Bowling League, KofC, etc) have all diminished. Most parishes still have a KofC, but the other events which lead to joining KofC have almost become extinct. Few parishes have social clubs for men anymore, like the old bowling leagues, etc.

amazon.com/Be-Man-Becoming-God-Created/dp/1586174037

good book.

Also Behold the Man: A Catholic Vision of Male Spirituality by Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers, published by Ignatius Press is good too

Ed

 

[MarcoPolo]

A male pope, male-only clergy, and from what I understand…only men make the big decisions within the church.

A male pope and clergy is not an indicator of whether or not a church has been feminized. Males are quite capable of making “feminist” decisions, or making decisions that discriminate against men, etc… Simply doing a head count is insufficient.

 

[clem456]

I get it that women have been marginalized by men for millenia. I get it that women have a right to expect positions of import in any arena, not just the Church. It’s a matter of justice.

Women do not have a right to grasp at exclusive power any more than men ever had that right. Men never had the right to marginalize women, we simply abused our power.

Here’s an example:
We formed a committee to compose some language for a parish document. We had good conversation about this over the course of several hours and came up with various suggestions.
In the end, the “real” composition emerged from the parish office which took none of the suggestions. Ok, I get it that someone has the power to do this work, and has what they think are the right words that offend no one and say nothing really substantial (in my humble opinion).
Ok fine, then don’t go through the pretense of tolerance and inclusion when you’re not really going to be tolerant and inclusive. Everyone’s time was wasted cause someone wanted to feel good about including others in a committee. Just run the darn parish the way you want and take the responsibility on your own shoulders instead of passing it off on the committee. Don’t hide behind noble but empty principles. We would be better off to go back to clericalism where Father does what he does and simply takes responsibility. It’s hypocrisy, not feminism.
This kind of thing happens time after time in youth ministry, liturgy, service projects.

 

[pianistclare]

I get it that women have been marginalized by men for millenia. I get it that women have a right to expect positions of import in any arena, not just the Church. It’s a matter of justice.

Women do not have a right to grasp at exclusive power any more than men ever had that right. Men never had the right to marginalize women, we simply abused our power.

Here’s an example:
We formed a committee to compose some language for a parish document. We had good conversation about this over the course of several hours and came up with various suggestions.
In the end, the “real” composition emerged from the parish office which took none of the suggestions. Ok, I get it that someone has the power to do this work, and has what they think are the right words that offend no one and say nothing really substantial (in my humble opinion).
Ok fine, then don’t go through the pretense of tolerance and inclusion when you’re not really going to be tolerant and inclusive. Everyone’s time was wasted cause someone wanted to feel good about including others in a committee. Just run the darn parish the way you want and take the responsibility on your own shoulders instead of passing it off on the committee. Don’t hide behind noble but empty principles. We would be better off to go back to clericalism where Father does what he does and simply takes responsibility. It’s hypocrisy, not feminism.
This kind of thing happens time after time in youth ministry, liturgy, service projects.

So what did the Pastor say? When you brought it to his attention? Did the parish secretary go on his directive?

 

[Xantippe]

I get it that women have been marginalized by men for millenia. I get it that women have a right to expect positions of import in any arena, not just the Church. It’s a matter of justice.

Women do not have a right to grasp at exclusive power any more than men ever had that right. Men never had the right to marginalize women, we simply abused our power.

Here’s an example:
We formed a committee to compose some language for a parish document. We had good conversation about this over the course of several hours and came up with various suggestions.
In the end, the “real” composition emerged from the parish office which took none of the suggestions. Ok, I get it that someone has the power to do this work, and has what they think are the right words that offend no one and say nothing really substantial (in my humble opinion).
Ok fine, then don’t go through the pretense of tolerance and inclusion when you’re not really going to be tolerant and inclusive. Everyone’s time was wasted cause someone wanted to feel good about including others in a committee. Just run the darn parish the way you want and take the responsibility on your own shoulders instead of passing it off on the committee. Don’t hide behind noble but empty principles. We would be better off to go back to clericalism where Father does what he does and simply takes responsibility. It’s hypocrisy, not feminism.
This kind of thing happens time after time in youth ministry, liturgy, service projects.

The funny thing is, that that’s a lot of CAF people’s ideal for marriage:

The committee (the wife) makes suggestions and then the parish office (the husband) does whatever the heck they want to do (having taken the committee/wife’s (name removed by moderator)ut into account).

Frustrating, isn’t it, when you’re on the receiving end?

 

[edwest2]

I think what you say here is very profound. I was reading American Church: The Remarkable Rise, Meteoric Fall, and Uncertain Future of Catholicism in America by Russell Shaw, published by the Ignatius Press recently. I think the destruction of the “Catholic Ghettos” had a extremely negative impact on Catholic Men. The number of Catholic Men’s groups (whether Sacred Heart or Catholic Bowling League, KofC, etc) have all diminished. Most parishes still have a KofC, but the other events which lead to joining KofC have almost become extinct. Few parishes have social clubs for men anymore, like the old bowling leagues, etc.

good book.

Also Behold the Man: A Catholic Vision of Male Spirituality by Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers, published by Ignatius Press is good too

Ed

Thank you for those book references. There are two common errors out there: Vatican II caused something bad. Not true. I was there before and after Vatican II.

Catholics weren’t “absorbed” into secular culture. Secular culture was designed to attack traditional family values, and the Church was attacked from within by dissidents. I was there in the late 1960s and when the radicals appeared in our neighborhoods, they abused our more trusting natures. “Try these pills.” “Smoke dope.” “Live with your girlfriend.” Morality? The Church? Who needs that? It’s old. Listen to us! We are going to lead you to a Woodstock Nation. The infiltration was going on. It’s documented. The Church had to be attacked. The traditional family had to be destroyed. Universities going away from their Catholic identity because they were convinced by someone(s) that Freedom was needed.

1967 catholichistory.net/Events/LandOLakesStatement.htm

1968 Pope Paul VI issues Humanae Vitae, reaffirming the Church’s constant teaching against artificial birth control. This was the reaction:

"Within 24 hours, in an event unprecedented in the history of the Church, more than 200 dissenting theologians signed a full-page ad in The New York Times in protest. Not only did they declare their disagreement with encyclical’s teaching; they went one step further, far beyond their authority as theologians, and actually encouraged dissent among the lay faithful.

"They asserted the following: “Therefore, as Roman Catholic theologians, conscious of our duty and our limitations, we conclude that spouses may responsibly decide according to their conscience that artificial contraception in some circumstances is permissible and indeed necessary to preserve and foster the values and sacredness of marriage.”

Source: Regnum Christi

1969 National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws.

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/abortion/articles-and-addresses/an-ex-abortionist-speaks/

Dissidents inside the Church laying the groundwork for the issues we face today.

wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704586504574654282563939764

The following book notes certain trends but the core one is this: our neighborhoods, our communities, were polluted by those who were 100% against our values, who preached their anti-moral values and lived them. They gradually became the dominant voice in the media that once shared our values. For the most part, today, the media is against our values.

amazon.com/Bowling-Alone-Collapse-American-Community/dp/0743203046

But, there are places where our values still live. Where people recognized the lies and didn’t change. I’ve been there. We who were affected need to turn away from decades of really bad example. We need to be together as Christians committed to worship and associating with each other. No, not everyone in my neighborhood was Catholic but we shared common values, which led to stability and encouragement and good, clean fun. Today? Why not be together? Work together. Enjoy life together.

Ed

 

[angell1]

well, in my personal experience, the priests I know are some of the best men in the world

I’m not too sure what you mean by “not masculine” because most of what our current culture says is masculine are vices instead of virtues.

the church is not “feminized” that is really a strange notion.

and I assure you, I really don’t think men don’t participate because women are doing things.

it’s just hard to get volunteers for anything, in general, these days

 

[clem456]

So what did the Pastor say? When you brought it to his attention? Did the parish secretary go on his directive?

Yes, he listens to this circle very closely. He is of a mind with them. He is a 60ish guy. He has a great mind and is a good spiritual adviser. And that’s all fine. He is the pastor, he has the wisdom to make choices. He can approve what he wants.

The problem is hypocrisy. There’s a lot of talk about doing things the “new and fresh way, including everyone”. Nonsense. There’s a pretense at inclusion and tolerance when in fact there is none.

To my Parish cabal: just tell me you want to do it your way and I’ll go do something useful. Just let’s not pretend. (something I could never say in my parish without being banished like a leper)

 

[clem456]

The funny thing is, that that’s a lot of CAF people’s ideal for marriage:

The committee (the wife) makes suggestions and then the parish office (the husband) does whatever the heck they want to do (having taken the committee/wife’s (name removed by moderator)ut into account).

Frustrating, isn’t it, when you’re on the receiving end?

A good marriage doesn’t work that way.
But I’m good with your position. At least you take an honest stand and I can respect that.

 

[EasterJoy]

This has absolutely been my experience, as well.

Catholicism could actually stand a bit more feminization, in my opinion.

Forgive me if I am suspicious of any opinion that the Church could stand some “-izing” of any kind. The farther the social engineers stay from Holy Mother Church, the better.

If the Gospel is preached, its virtues advanced and the vices it warns of avoided,
the plate is full. If the Gospel is preached and lived, then whatever pitch the voice was given by its Maker is just fine.

 

[pensmama87]

It’s been my experience in our parish that they are desperate for male volunteers. They won’t turn away women because hey, the hands are needed, but there’s been a lot of attempts to get men in particular involved. And they aren’t really biting.

 

[ProVobis]

Catholicism could actually stand a bit more feminization, in my opinion.

You’re doing a good job so far.

Look at the percentage of women who attend church.

The last Spanish Mass I went to had about 90% women. I felt like putting a bag over my head.

 

[Exiled_Child]

Forgive me if I am suspicious of any opinion that the Church could stand some “-izing” of any kind. The farther the social engineers stay from Holy Mother Church, the better.

If the Gospel is preached, its virtues advanced and the vices it warns of avoided,
the plate is full. If the Gospel is preached and lived, then whatever pitch the voice was given by its Maker is just fine.

Well, I agree. I just meant that even though church attendance may be more female than male, the clergy itself is male, and no amount of female involvement can really overshadow that fact. I didn’t express myself very clearly; I just don’t see feminization as a problem or as an issue.

 

[Exiled_Child]

You’re doing a good job so far.

Look at the percentage of women who attend church.

The last Spanish Mass I went to had about 90% women. I felt like putting a bag over my head.

Don’t put a bag over your head, please, unless you have air holes…