Catholicism – Too Feminized?

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They’re also not part of the sensibilities of the average Catholic woman.

If that sort of thing shows up in a parish (and I’ve never seen it), it’s because that’s what Father likes.
How is it possible that you have never seen it and yet you know why the pastor allows it?

No, it is not because it is “what Father likes.” Pastors do not all feel free to dictate that the parish life and liturgy revolve around their personal likes and dislikes! Rather, they consider what the parishioners like or have asked for and decide whether or not that can be accommodated within the boundaries of what the parish ought to have.

I have been in parishes where this sort of stuff is done, and no, the women do not object to it in the numbers that the men do. It is not even close.
 
  1. I’m questioning the idea that the absence or non-involvement of men is a novelty caused by specifically modern ills. It seems like it is very much an age-old traditional problem so blaming feminism for something that has always been a problem seems just as misplaced as blaming feminism for athlete’s foot.
  2. Aren’t a lot of the people guilty of “over-feminized” liturgical planning actually MALE?
Aren’t a lot of the authors of treacly hymns MALE? Haven’t they always been?

martyhaugen.net/
Let me clarify: I am NOT saying that when a parish shows signs of illness that it is the fault of the women. No. I am saying that when you have one gender or other or some economic group or other or any entire group of persons in the parish not participating in the life of the Church as fully as their circumstances allow, that is a sick parish. That is a symptom of spiritual illness, and it affects everyone. That kind of wholesale check-out may be typical in some times and places, but typical and healthy are not the same thing.

If the Good Shepherd will leave the 99 in search of the one, how much more would He leave the 60% in order to find the 40%, or the 40% in order to find the 60% or the 10% in order to find the 90%? The only thing that should not be done is to make changes that keep bodies into the pews but leaves hearts untouched. That is worthless.
 
How is it possible that you have never seen it and yet you know why the pastor allows it?
Well, I have been to A LOT of different parishes over the years and had a lot of different pastors, and it’s quite obvious that pastors generally have a huge influence on liturgy–see, for example, pianistclare’s list of oddities.

For the pastors that I’ve seen most of, it’s clear that Father’s personal preferences have a big influence on the liturgy and the church building. So, for instance, if a pastor does a Latin Mass, it’s probably because he likes the Latin Mass. If he acquires and wears a beautiful collection of new traditionalish vestments and beretta, it’s probably because he likes traditionalish vestments and beretta. If he reverses the Creed and the homily in order, it’s because he likes doing that. If the church winds up with a beautiful Divine Mercy or nice new stained glass, it’s because that’s what Father values. Etc. None of that happens by accident.

Priests aren’t usually just bystanders in their parishes. Although it’s very handy to pretend to be when people come grumbling to him about the liturgy.
 
I must be in a one of a kind parish since most of the lay volunteers are men. There are some women but the vast majority are men.
Do you belong to a parish which is run primarily by monks or brothers, by any chance?

There are parishes where vast majority are men that I know of. All of them seem to be quite open to the EF, and I don’t think this is coincidental.
 
Well, I have been to A LOT of different parishes over the years and had a lot of different pastors, and it’s quite obvious that pastors generally have a huge influence on liturgy–see, for example, pianistclare’s list of oddities.

For the pastors that I’ve seen most of, it’s clear that Father’s personal preferences have a big influence on the liturgy and the church building. So, for instance, if a pastor does a Latin Mass, it’s probably because he likes the Latin Mass. If he acquires and wears a beautiful collection of new traditionalish vestments and beretta, it’s probably because he likes traditionalish vestments and beretta. If he reverses the Creed and the homily in order, it’s because he likes doing that. If the church winds up with a beautiful Divine Mercy or nice new stained glass, it’s because that’s what Father values. Etc. None of that happens by accident.

Priests aren’t usually just bystanders in their parishes. Although it’s very handy to pretend to be when people come grumbling to him about the liturgy.
Have you been to a lot of parishes in the Pacific NW? I know EJ lives there, as do my parents, and stuff is just wacky there. At least, that’s been my impression whenever I’ve visited.

I’ve not experienced liturgical “innovation” like I’ve seen there anywhere else.
 
Can we at least admit that unfortunate innovations like liturgical dance involving a bunch of dancers in leotards dramatically waving scarves like rhythmic gymnasts, processions that include super-size puppets, and un-singable “hymns” that sound like they were taken from the free-verse love song of a Broadway musical were not something thought up from the sensibility of the average Catholic man?
There are so many ways this could go. I’m doing my best to not.

Back to the topic, maybe we need some sort of affirmative action for men in the Church.
 
Have you been to a lot of parishes in the Pacific NW? I know EJ lives there, as do my parents, and stuff is just wacky there. At least, that’s been my impression whenever I’ve visited.

I’ve not experienced liturgical “innovation” like I’ve seen there anywhere else.
Huh. I assumed you were from around Pittsburgh. Penguins. Sidney Crosby is #87.
 
Have you been to a lot of parishes in the Pacific NW? I know EJ lives there, as do my parents, and stuff is just wacky there. At least, that’s been my impression whenever I’ve visited.

I’ve not experienced liturgical “innovation” like I’ve seen there anywhere else.
I haven’t been often to PNW parishes frequently–no more than a couple times a year. A few years back there was a very orthodox, very conscientious priest at a suburban Vancouver parish that was quite addicted to using PowerPoint during his homilies. That’s the wackiest thing I remember.
 
There are so many ways this could go. I’m doing my best to not.

Back to the topic, maybe we need some sort of affirmative action for men in the Church.
Come to St. Joseph’s! If you are a biological male, you get to bump any woman from any place in any pew you like!

Supplies are limited, so don’t delay!
 
OK. You keep saying this.
HOW?
HOW?

Examples please.
Example 1: I have personally watched the percentage of males on the altar decrease exponentially over the course of my lifetime, and I’m not that old. I don’t go to the same church every week so I have an opportunity to regularly observe multiple churches around the area in which I live. Serving mass used to be a church activity which boys could engage in separately from the girls. Not only is this no longer the case but the girls outnumber the boys. If you asked me to estimate the ratio of altar girls to altar boys within the churches that I attend I would estimate it to be about 4 to 1. Why is this an issue? Boys learn to be masculine by learning from men and from interacting with other boys, and they will naturally seek out activities that are exclusively male. It’s one of the ways they develop their masculine identity. When girls enter the picture, most boys will instinctively go in search of another activity that is exclusively masculine. As it relates to altar boys, serving mass is a good way for boys to learn to value and revere the holy sacrifice of the mass. They become actively engaged in that sacrifice. Boys are now being turned off from serving mass. Does anybody care?

Example 2: While protecting the weak is a natural instinct for males, it does need reinforcement and development. “You don’t rise to the occasion, you fall to the level of your training.” That quote is credited to a Greek philosopher named Archilochus and is popular amongst members of our armed forces. How does this relate to masculinity? It is not reasonable to expect a man to be able to defend the weak if he has not developed the physical and mental toughness to effectively do so. This is one reason why my father had me and my brothers trained in boxing and other fighting styles from a fairly young age. In terms of developing physical and mental toughness I cannot think of anything better and I highly recommend at least some training for every boy. When I was in high school, one of the girls in church told my sister that she thought the training that I participated in was “barbaric.” She is not the only one with this attitude, since boys are not allowed to fight in school, not even to defend themselves. This includes Catholic schools. How can we expect to teach boys about chivalry and protecting the weak when they are being told that fighting, under any circumstance, is wrong?

Example 3: About four years ago I was sitting in church with my family, listening to the sermon. The celebrant that day was a Franciscan friar who was actually on EWTN for a while. I can’t remember for sure if it was Mother’s Day, but I do remember that he did nothing but talk about various ways in which women were “oppressed” in various societies throughout history, as if we as men were supposed to feel guilty for all the wrongs, real or otherwise, that our male ancestors had committed against their women. Because of the Blessed Virgin, Catholicism has always taught that women are to be respected and cherished as the heart of the home. When’s the last time you heard a sermon about giving husbands and fathers the proper respect as the heads of the home? Why do we care? The family is the basic building block of Christ’s body, the Church. The family is made up of the father, mother, and the children. Can any unit function effectively when the members do not respect the leader? How can any organization stand when the individual units don’t function properly?
 
Example 1: I have personally watched the percentage of males on the altar decrease exponentially over the course of my lifetime, and I’m not that old. I don’t go to the same church every week so I have an opportunity to regularly observe multiple churches around the area in which I live. Serving mass used to be a church activity which boys could engage in separately from the girls. Not only is this no longer the case but the girls outnumber the boys. If you asked me to estimate the ratio of altar girls to altar boys within the churches that I attend I would estimate it to be about 4 to 1. Why is this an issue? Boys learn to be masculine by learning from men and from interacting with other boys, and they will naturally seek out activities that are exclusively male. It’s one of the ways they develop their masculine identity. When girls enter the picture, most boys will instinctively go in search of another activity that is exclusively masculine. As it relates to altar boys, serving mass is a good way for boys to learn to value and revere the holy sacrifice of the mass. They become actively engaged in that sacrifice. Boys are now being turned off from serving mass. Does anybody care?

Example 2: While protecting the weak is a natural instinct for males, it does need reinforcement and development. “You don’t rise to the occasion, you fall to the level of your training.” That quote is credited to a Greek philosopher named Archilochus and is popular amongst members of our armed forces. How does this relate to masculinity? It is not reasonable to expect a man to be able to defend the weak if he has not developed the physical and mental toughness to effectively do so. This is one reason why my father had me and my brothers trained in boxing and other fighting styles from a fairly young age. In terms of developing physical and mental toughness I cannot think of anything better and I highly recommend at least some training for every boy. When I was in high school, one of the girls in church told my sister that she thought the training that I participated in was “barbaric.” She is not the only one with this attitude, since boys are not allowed to fight in school, not even to defend themselves. This includes Catholic schools. How can we expect to teach boys about chivalry and protecting the weak when they are being told that fighting, under any circumstance, is wrong?

Example 3: About four years ago I was sitting in church with my family, listening to the sermon. The celebrant that day was a Franciscan friar who was actually on EWTN for a while. I can’t remember for sure if it was Mother’s Day, but I do remember that he did nothing but talk about various ways in which women were “oppressed” in various societies throughout history, as if we as men were supposed to feel guilty for all the wrongs, real or otherwise, that our male ancestors had committed against their women. Because of the Blessed Virgin, Catholicism has always taught that women are to be respected and cherished as the heart of the home. When’s the last time you heard a sermon about giving husbands and fathers the proper respect as the heads of the home? Why do we care? The family is the basic building block of Christ’s body, the Church. The family is made up of the father, mother, and the children. Can any unit function effectively when the members do not respect the leader? How can any organization stand when the individual units don’t function properly?
I strongly suspect that sports mania has an even bigger impact on whether or not boys are altar servers.

patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/2013/04/church-vs-childrens-sports/

Lots of kids do martial arts–karate, tae kwon do, whatever.

People respect those that are worthy of respect–respect isn’t for the asking. (Basic civility is owed to everybody, but respect is a step above that.)

I was just looking up the definition of respect online and the computer tells me that it is “a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.” Not everybody deserves that.
 
Example 1: I have personally watched the percentage of males on the altar decrease exponentially over the course of my lifetime, and I’m not that old. I don’t go to the same church every week so I have an opportunity to regularly observe multiple churches around the area in which I live. Serving mass used to be a church activity which boys could engage in separately from the girls. Not only is this no longer the case but the girls outnumber the boys. If you asked me to estimate the ratio of altar girls to altar boys within the churches that I attend I would estimate it to be about 4 to 1. Why is this an issue? Boys learn to be masculine by learning from men and from interacting with other boys, and they will naturally seek out activities that are exclusively male. It’s one of the ways they develop their masculine identity. When girls enter the picture, most boys will instinctively go in search of another activity that is exclusively masculine. As it relates to altar boys, serving mass is a good way for boys to learn to value and revere the holy sacrifice of the mass. They become actively engaged in that sacrifice. Boys are now being turned off from serving mass. Does anybody care?

Example 2: While protecting the weak is a natural instinct for males, it does need reinforcement and development. “You don’t rise to the occasion, you fall to the level of your training.” That quote is credited to a Greek philosopher named Archilochus and is popular amongst members of our armed forces. How does this relate to masculinity? It is not reasonable to expect a man to be able to defend the weak if he has not developed the physical and mental toughness to effectively do so. This is one reason why my father had me and my brothers trained in boxing and other fighting styles from a fairly young age. In terms of developing physical and mental toughness I cannot think of anything better and I highly recommend at least some training for every boy. When I was in high school, one of the girls in church told my sister that she thought the training that I participated in was “barbaric.” She is not the only one with this attitude, since boys are not allowed to fight in school, not even to defend themselves. This includes Catholic schools. How can we expect to teach boys about chivalry and protecting the weak when they are being told that fighting, under any circumstance, is wrong?

Example 3: About four years ago I was sitting in church with my family, listening to the sermon. The celebrant that day was a Franciscan friar who was actually on EWTN for a while. I can’t remember for sure if it was Mother’s Day, but I do remember that he did nothing but talk about various ways in which women were “oppressed” in various societies throughout history, as if we as men were supposed to feel guilty for all the wrongs, real or otherwise, that our male ancestors had committed against their women. Because of the Blessed Virgin, Catholicism has always taught that women are to be respected and cherished as the heart of the home. When’s the last time you heard a sermon about giving husbands and fathers the proper respect as the heads of the home? Why do we care? The family is the basic building block of Christ’s body, the Church. The family is made up of the father, mother, and the children. Can any unit function effectively when the members do not respect the leader? How can any organization stand when the individual units don’t function properly?
The Catholic Church does not allow any female leadership. It does not openly welcome the voices of women. From the Vatican down to the small town parish, women have no authority in the church. An organization that is so dismissive of women MUST emphasize their importance in the family and must remember that women are more vulnerable, and have been oppressed many times throughout history, no patronizing quotations needed. If the Catholic Church were to maintain their hard-line stance on women and not emphasize that there is a dignified place for them, the church would very quickly devolve into something that more resembles ISIS than its current form.

It seems like you want to keep everything the same and just add a few more ego strokes for men. That’s fine. But the church can hardly be called “feminized”.
 
Every generation is a fresh start on who we can alienate. My wife was discouraged about participation in her faith when she was a girl and could not become an alter server. Today, I see very few boys in this role in my parish.

I do not advocate a return to the 19th Century as some in this thread have called it. Instead, I hope we can all make sure to correct wrongs without losing track of the new wrongs we are creating. The Church should never be a zero-sum proposition.
 
Do you belong to a parish which is run primarily by monks or brothers, by any chance?

There are parishes where vast majority are men that I know of. All of them seem to be quite open to the EF, and I don’t think this is coincidental.
No.

The parish I attend is not EF but OF and yet there are a lot of men volunteering. Men of all ages from teens to the nineties. We also have a very involved and dynamic KOC organization.
 
The Catholic Church does not allow any female leadership. It does not openly welcome the voices of women. From the Vatican down to the small town parish, women have no authority in the church.
LOL, too funny 😃
That has not been my experience at all…
 
So if a parent begins to favor one child over the rest, the other children should just suck it up? Neither Cardinal Burke nor myself is saying that men should enjoy preferential treatment. What Burke is saying (and I agree with him) is that radical feminism has affected the Church and this in turn is severely hampering the development of masculine, Catholic men to the detriment of the Church, the family, and society.

Apparently I have no business being a member of a universal church simply because I raise my hand and say “I think we have a problem.” Obviously, I must be trying to advance some kind of male agenda which is meant to subjugate women to the wants of men.:rolleyes: If the Church is indeed universal it should not be overlooking the needs and proper development of either gender, including men.
So what do you propose needs to be done in order to bring more involved men into parish life? What have you done?
 
So what do you propose needs to be done in order to bring more involved men into parish life? What have you done?
Men respond to direct challenges well (at least I do).
Direct invitations to attend bible studies.
Invitations to work projects.
Invitations to serve on various councils.
Invitations to get involved in Liturgy, choir, etc…,…

In My Humble Opinion…Pastors should begin ripping men to shreds from the ambo for our lack of commitment to the Christian call. We really deserve it, and I’d have to think that Christ might turn a table or two over to get our attention.

There is absolutely no excuse for the timid Christianity practiced by men in our parishes. Men drop their kids off for “ed” and keep on driving instead of going to Mass with their wife and kids, or they have their wives do all this while they are golfing. And then we complain when the world isn’t more Christian, or when the Muslims are “taking over”. Well, DUH!

In My Humble Opinion, pastors need to begin condemning this kind of “life” from the ambo. (not condemning the person, but the lifestyle). Would your football coach put up with this? Would your drill sargent? Would your employer tolerate half-commitment? Then why should your pastor tolerate it?
 
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