Catholicism – Too Feminized?

[Sarcelle]

Men respond to direct challenges well (at least I do).
Direct invitations to attend bible studies.
Invitations to work projects.
Invitations to serve on various councils.
Invitations to get involved in Liturgy, choir, etc…,…

In My Humble Opinion…Pastors should begin ripping men to shreds from the ambo for our lack of commitment to the Christian call. We really deserve it, and I’d have to think that Christ might turn a table or two over to get our attention.

There is absolutely no excuse for the timid Christianity practiced by men in our parishes. Men drop their kids off for “ed” and keep on driving instead of going to Mass with their wife and kids, or they have their wives do all this while they are golfing. And then we complain when the world isn’t more Christian, or when the Muslims are “taking over”. Well, DUH!

In My Humble Opinion, pastors need to begin condemning this kind of “life” from the ambo. (not condemning the person, but the lifestyle). Would your football coach put up with this? Would your drill sargent? Would your employer tolerate half-commitment? Then why should your pastor tolerate it?

Yes.

The priest in my parish is quite direct and has no qualms about challenging us, both men and women. The men have responded and have stepped up. Women too, but mostly men.

 

[ProVobis]

Boys learn to be masculine by learning from men and from interacting with other boys, and they will naturally seek out activities that are exclusively male. It’s one of the ways they develop their masculine identity. When girls enter the picture, most boys will instinctively go in search of another activity that is exclusively masculine.

There’s a saying that goes:

Men feel like men around other men.
Women feel like women around men.

Not a win-win situation, for sure.

 

[on_the_hill]

Men respond to direct challenges well (at least I do).
Direct invitations to attend bible studies.
Invitations to work projects.
Invitations to serve on various councils.
Invitations to get involved in Liturgy, choir, etc…,…

Do you mean a direct, face-to-face invitation? In that case, I’d have to politely decline. Or not, depending on what else is going on in my life. In other words, a direct invitation is no more likely to get me involved than is a notice in the bulletin.

 

[Sugabee43]

The Catholic Church does not allow any female leadership. It does not openly welcome the voices of women. From the Vatican down to the small town parish, women have no authority in the church.

This has not been my experience at all, either. My VERY large parish (one of the largest in our region, if not state) has mostly FEMALES as those in charge- of Adult and Youth Formation; Business Manager; Social Services, etc… I venture to say that if anything, the males are the ones whose voices are not openly welcome. The priest is the Sacramental leader, but women run the joint.

My sister, who lives in another state in a rural/small town, can also attest that it’s mostly run by women; not men. So anecdotally, my experience is the opposite of yours.

As a convert from the Episcopalian denomination, this is pretty on-point for them, too. Although now, “priests” in that faith can be pretty much anything.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

I strongly suspect that sports mania has an even bigger impact on whether or not boys are altar servers.

patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/2013/04/church-vs-childrens-sports/

I am very much against sports mania for several reasons. Sporting events on Sunday morning could account for some of the attrition amongst altar boys. But let’s not forget that girls play sports as well. Wouldn’t it be reasonable to assume that if sports mania was the primary culprit that there would be a comparable number of girls missing from Sunday mass as well?

Lots of kids do martial arts–karate, tae kwon do, whatever.

Indeed. There are plenty of people across the country that are being sold a bill of goods by so-called “martial arts masters.” What I went through and what I am talking about is a bit more rigorous. My first formal training started with boxing at the age of fourteen. After about half a year of training I was put in a group class where I was the youngest person by three years and the lightest person by thirty pounds. I took a beating on a regular basis. When I started doing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu about a year later, it was pretty much the same story. I was a boy competing against men. I am not trying to brag, I am merely trying elaborate on the difference between mainstream martial arts and real warrior training.

People respect those that are worthy of respect–respect isn’t for the asking. (Basic civility is owed to everybody, but respect is a step above that.)

I was just looking up the definition of respect online and the computer tells me that it is “a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.” Not everybody deserves that.

So a man who works to provide a decent home for his wife and children doesn’t deserve respect? I would think that such a man has earned at least a modicum of respect.

 

[clem456]

Do you mean a direct, face-to-face invitation? In that case, I’d have to politely decline. Or not, depending on what else is going on in my life. In other words, a direct invitation is no more likely to get me involved than is a notice in the bulletin.

That is a sad observation.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

This has not been my experience at all, either. My VERY large parish (one of the largest in our region, if not state) has mostly FEMALES as those in charge- of Adult and Youth Formation; Business Manager; Social Services, etc… I venture to say that if anything, the males are the ones whose voices are not openly welcome. The priest is the Sacramental leader, but women run the joint.

My sister, who lives in another state in a rural/small town, can also attest that it’s mostly run by women; not men. So anecdotally, my experience is the opposite of yours.

As a convert from the Episcopalian denomination, this is pretty on-point for them, too. Although now, “priests” in that faith can be pretty much anything.

EXACTLY! Men make decisions, set the agenda, lay out the rules, and determine leadership. Women do the legwork. That’s not authority, and it’s hardly “running things”. In any other institution, this would be untenable. To hear a member of the exclusively male leadership complain that the women doing the work are “feminizing” the church is alarming.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

This has not been my experience at all, either. My VERY large parish (one of the largest in our region, if not state) has mostly FEMALES as those in charge- of Adult and Youth Formation; Business Manager; Social Services, etc… I venture to say that if anything, the males are the ones whose voices are not openly welcome. The priest is the Sacramental leader, but women run the joint.

My sister, who lives in another state in a rural/small town, can also attest that it’s mostly run by women; not men. So anecdotally, my experience is the opposite of yours.

Same here.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

Right. There are really only 2 major women composers of hymns, and they are pretty well bashed out of use.

Our most progressive and odd liturgies were under the direction of a past pastor who just had to change things.
For ex:
Everyone walking up to the altar to give their tithe, no baskets, everyone up out of the pew
Washing EVERYONE’s feet on Holy Thursday (yuck)
Standing during communion until the Blessed Sacrament is reposed and then little or no time for personal reflection and prayer
The insertion of an “official prayer of this parish” before Mass begins
Many announcements of birthdays and anniversaries, milestones before the final blessing, etc.

None of these were the innovations of women on committees.

I never assumed feminization had anything to do with women doing things versus men. It is a concept that has specific meanings or attributes philosphically, given the era from which it sprung. Again, Cardinal Burke specifically seems to be touching on 3rd-wave feminism, as was mentioned.

Regardless of whether one thinks this is true, the Church by all measurable accounts is much worse off than it was in 1950, and some of the worst offenders over that period were men.

Just because someone believes something was feminized doesn’t mean it was done by women. It seemly means the true essence of manhood was stripped out partly or wholly. Interestingly, though the essence of womnahood is often stripped out of society in various ways (the pro-choice mentality being foremost), we rarely use the term masculinized to describe that.

In any case, men as a whole have become lazy and self-centered in the last 40 years or so, and there are things that have been done by both genders that have enabled and/or encouraged this. Both genders have a role to play in the mess in the Church, and the Church will not thrive again without both genders doing their part (parts which are vital).

 

[pianistclare]

How is it possible that you have never seen it and yet you know why the pastor allows it?

No, it is not because it is “what Father likes.” Pastors do not all feel free to dictate that the parish life and liturgy revolve around their personal likes and dislikes! Rather, they consider what the parishioners like or have asked for and decide whether or not that can be accommodated within the boundaries of what the parish ought to have.

I have been in parishes where this sort of stuff is done, and no, the women do not object to it in the numbers that the men do. It is not even close.

I’ve never been n a parish where anything that happened that was not driven by the Pastor.

 

[pianistclare]

I never assumed feminization had anything to do with women doing things versus men. It is a concept that has specific meanings or attributes philosphically, given the era from which it sprung. Again, Cardinal Burke specifically seems to be touching on 3rd-wave feminism, as was mentioned.

Regardless of whether one thinks this is true, the Church by all measurable accounts is much worse off than it was in 1950, and some of the worst offenders over that period were men.

Just because someone believes something was feminized doesn’t mean it was done by women. It seemly means the true ssence of manhood was stripped out partly or wholly. Interestingly, though the essence of womnahood is often stripped out of society in various ways (the pro-choice mentality being foremost), we rarely use the term masculinized to describe that.

In any case, men as a whole have become lazy and self-centered in the last 40 years or so, and there are things that have been done by both genders that have enabled and/or encouraged this. Both genders have a role to play in the mess in the Church, and the Church will not thrive again without both genders doing their part (parts which are vital).

OK, again, …What exactly is “feminized”, and how is it happening?
I keep asking, but everyone still says “it happens”.
WHAT happens? What is it that is driving this opinion?

 

[Sarcelle]

You know the cynical side of me looks at the pattern of posts that periodically pop up on this forum and assume that what some men want of women is for the latter to be invisible. No more pesky immodesty problems or feminization of the church to contend with.

If only women were more like appliances to be rolled out and used when convenient and then kept and hidden away until they are needed.

But that’s just me being cynical.

 

[Sarcelle]

I never assumed feminization had anything to do with women doing things versus men. It is a concept that has specific meanings or attributes philosphically, given the era from which it sprung. Again, Cardinal Burke specifically seems to be touching on 3rd-wave feminism, as was mentioned.

Regardless of whether one thinks this is true, the Church by all measurable accounts is much worse off than it was in 1950, and some of the worst offenders over that period were men.

Just because someone believes something was feminized doesn’t mean it was done by women. It seemly means the true essence of manhood was stripped out partly or wholly. Interestingly, though the essence of womnahood is often stripped out of society in various ways (the pro-choice mentality being foremost), we rarely use the term masculinized to describe that.

In any case, men as a whole have become lazy and self-centered in the last 40 years or so, and there are things that have been done by both genders that have enabled and/or encouraged this. Both genders have a role to play in the mess in the Church, and the Church will not thrive again without both genders doing their part (parts which are vital).

The Church have always had problems. Humans have always been sinful creatures and not just for the past 40 years.

 

[marymary1975]

The Catholic Church does not allow any female leadership. It does not openly welcome the voices of women. From the Vatican down to the small town parish, women have no authority in the church. .

I don’t agree with this.part. If that were true why did the church has women.declared as Doctors of the Church? If that were true too that would meant that the local Bishops in the US would have had in the 80`s more authority than Mother Theresa. Do you really think that a US Bishop who we don’t even know their names had more authority than Mother Theresa? Also do you think that any bishop would have had more power and authority than Sor Lucia of Fatima.? Sor Lucia would utter a word and the Pope would run to her. Same with mother Theresa. I highly doubt that in the present time there are too many men whitin the church that had more authority than Mother Theresa or Sor Lucia. So we cannot say that the church doesn’t listen to women voices because at least I can come out with a pretty long list of women who do and did have authority within the church and to whom the church did listen to their voices and gave them the highest regard and qualifications within the church.

Now if the argument is that more women should be given the title.of.Doctors of the church that I agree, but that the Vatican does not allow any kind of female.leadership.that is incorrect and there are names from st Hildegard of.birden to Mother Theresa to prove it wrong.

 

[Sugabee43]

I don’t agree with this.part. If that were true why did the church has women.declared as Doctors of the Church? If that were true too that would meant that the local Bishops in the US would have had in the 80`s more authority than Mother Theresa. Do you really think that a US Bishop who we don’t even know their names had more authority than Mother Theresa? Also do you think that any bishop would have had more power and authority than Sor Lucia of Fatima.? Sor Lucia would utter a word and the Pope would run to her. Same with mother Theresa. I highly doubt that in the present time there are too many men whitin the church that had more authority than Mother Theresa or Sor Lucia. So we cannot say that the church doesn’t listen to women voices because at least I can come out with a pretty long list of women who do and did have authority within the church and to whom the church did listen to their voices and gave them the highest regard and qualifications within the church.

Now if the argument is that more women should be given the title.of.Doctors of the church that I agree, but that the Vatican does not allow any kind of female.leadership.that is incorrect and there are names from st Hildegard of.birden to Mother Theresa to prove it wrong.

THIS I agree with!! Also, the pastor may have the “final say” when it comes to parish decisions, but the vast majority of parishes are run by women, and women know how to make sure things get done their way- one way or another!!

I am SO TIRED of hearing about how women are ‘victimized’ or ‘held back’ within the Catholic Church. Puh-leeze. If you want to have women priests, go join the Episcopal church.

 

[pianistclare]

Example 1: I have personally watched the percentage of males on the altar decrease exponentially over the course of my lifetime, and I’m not that old. I don’t go to the same church every week so I have an opportunity to regularly observe multiple churches around the area in which I live. Serving mass used to be a church activity which boys could engage in separately from the girls. Not only is this no longer the case but the girls outnumber the boys. If you asked me to estimate the ratio of altar girls to altar boys within the churches that I attend I would estimate it to be about 4 to 1. Why is this an issue? Boys learn to be masculine by learning from men and from interacting with other boys, and they will naturally seek out activities that are exclusively male. It’s one of the ways they develop their masculine identity. When girls enter the picture, most boys will instinctively go in search of another activity that is exclusively masculine. As it relates to altar boys, serving mass is a good way for boys to learn to value and revere the holy sacrifice of the mass. They become actively engaged in that sacrifice. Boys are now being turned off from serving mass. Does anybody care?

**That’s the job of the pastor and the person who trains the server. I suspect they aren’t asking boys to come forward. I myself, as a DRE, make sure every child who has just received their First Holy Communion understands and is personally invited to the next Altar Server training. I find that the enthusiasm is in direct proportion to the participation of the parents in the liturgical ministries. Do you help recruit? **

Example 2: While protecting the weak is a natural instinct for males, it does need reinforcement and development. “You don’t rise to the occasion, you fall to the level of your training.” That quote is credited to a Greek philosopher named Archilochus and is popular amongst members of our armed forces. How does this relate to masculinity? It is not reasonable to expect a man to be able to defend the weak if he has not developed the physical and mental toughness to effectively do so. This is one reason why my father had me and my brothers trained in boxing and other fighting styles from a fairly young age. In terms of developing physical and mental toughness I cannot think of anything better and I highly recommend at least some training for every boy. When I was in high school, one of the girls in church told my sister that she thought the training that I participated in was “barbaric.” She is not the only one with this attitude, since boys are not allowed to fight in school, not even to defend themselves. This includes Catholic schools. How can we expect to teach boys about chivalry and protecting the weak when they are being told that fighting, under any circumstance, is wrong?
**I know this may come as a shock, but fighting, is indeed wrong. Under any circumstance. Did you get a memo that there was going to be a second crusade or something? **

Example 3: About four years ago I was sitting in church with my family, listening to the sermon. The celebrant that day was a Franciscan friar who was actually on EWTN for a while. I can’t remember for sure if it was Mother’s Day, but I do remember that he did nothing but talk about various ways in which women were “oppressed” in various societies throughout history, as if we as men were supposed to feel guilty for all the wrongs, real or otherwise, that our male ancestors had committed against their women. Because of the Blessed Virgin, Catholicism has always taught that women are to be respected and cherished as the heart of the home. When’s the last time you heard a sermon about giving husbands and fathers the proper respect as the heads of the home? Why do we care? The family is the basic building block of Christ’s body, the Church. The family is made up of the father, mother, and the children. Can any unit function effectively when the members do not respect the leader? How can any organization stand when the individual units don’t function properly?

OK, this just sounds a bit paranoid. All of the families I know that are active in their faith do respect their dads, husbands, and elder menfolk, if they happen to be around. Mother’s Day would indeed elicit a different kind of homily. We get a great homily on St. Joseph and other notable Fathers each and every Father’s Day, and often, at Veteran’s Day, and various Feasts of Apostles. The church is not low on good men to talk about. Not at my parish, anyway. How exactly does any of that equate to feminism?

 

[Xantippe]

So a man who works to provide a decent home for his wife and children doesn’t deserve respect? I would think that such a man has earned at least a modicum of respect.

Sure.

But you spotted him a couple of things worthy of respect–the working for his wife and children and the decent home.

Unfortunately, those things can’t be taken for granted. Some fathers have a lot of trouble keeping a job (sometimes their fault, sometimes not their fault), some insist only on working at their dream job, some spend their earnings selfishly or carelessly, lots of families do not live in decent homes, and some fathers are negligent about household maintenance.

Mere biological fatherhood doesn’t turn a man into a prince.

 

[MarcoPolo]

He’s talking about liturgy and female alter servers. You’re talking about a “3rd wave feminist mentality”… you’re being more than a little hyperbolic.

The crux of what is criticized is the mentality of equality=sameness, which is the hallmark of 3rd wave feminism. That movement measures girl “power” to the degree that women do things men do. Many other women have criticized that barometer as an insult because it subconsciously says that man-ness is the ultimate standard for anyone to achieve. Thus, when Card. Burke was critical of female altar servers, for example, this is often motivated by a push for “sameness,” whereas altar serving historically had been an opportunity for boys to discern the priesthood, and that unique path and purpose for altar serving has largely been lost (even if female altar servers are technically licit). Cardinal Burke is indeed referring to a particular breed of feminism, not the mere influence of females. So I stand by my statement and reject that it is hyperbolic.

 

[marymary1975]

Example 1: I have personally watched the percentage of males on the altar decrease exponentially over the course of my lifetime, and I’m not that old. I don’t go to the same church every week so I have an opportunity to regularly observe multiple churches around the area in which I live. Serving mass used to be a church activity which boys could engage in separately from the girls. Not only is this no longer the case but the girls outnumber the boys. If you asked me to estimate the ratio of altar girls to altar boys within the churches that I attend I would estimate it to be about 4 to 1. Why is this an issue? Boys learn to be masculine by learning from men and from interacting with other boys, and they will naturally seek out activities that are exclusively male. It’s one of the ways they develop their masculine identity. When girls enter the picture, most boys will instinctively go in search of another activity that is exclusively masculine. As it relates to altar boys, serving mass is a good way for boys to learn to value and revere the holy sacrifice of the mass. They become actively engaged in that sacrifice. Boys are now being turned off from serving mass. Does anybody care?

?

I don’t think.that is reason.why you have less.boys as altar servers. Your suggestion is basically that numbers.of.altar boys were high and that after the church allowed altar girls the number of altar boys went down. At least in the parishes that I have participated it has been the other way around. The parishes was forced to start looking for altar girls because boys stopped being altar boys. At least in my experience most altar boys were altar boys because their mothers told.them they had to.do it. All my cousins were altar boys and all but one.did it because their mothers dragged them to so it. In our current culture most Catholic parents don’t expect their kids to.be fully active in the church as in the past, so for most Catholic.parents is if the kid wants do it. Since parents stopped expecting their boys to become altar boys and just left it to their choice, less and.less.boys were enrolling for.it. and it got to.a.point where there weren’t enough so the priest had to look for.girls.

 

[Xantippe]

You know the cynical side of me looks at the pattern of posts that periodically pop up on this forum and assume that what some men want of women is for the latter to be invisible. No more pesky immodesty problems or feminization of the church to contend with.

If only women were more like appliances to be rolled out and used when convenient and then kept and hidden away until they are needed.

But that’s just me being cynical.

It’s funny you mention that, because there are parts of the internet where guys like to dream at length about the fembots of the future and how easy life will be without having to deal with real women.