Catholicism: A Changing Church -- Despite Itself

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ChemicalBean said:
How dare you compare woman to an asparagus! Woman, like Man, is made in the image and likeness of God. No more so, no less so. Through Baptism, woman, also like man, is re-configured to the image of Christ. No more so, no less so. An asparagus merely glorifies God through the beauty of its natural creation and serves to provide us with food. The fact that you would make this analogy is just sickening. The fact that another poster would further compare woman to a jackass is worse.
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I believe that the poster’s likening a woman to a vegetable and a jackass–as insulting as it is–gets to the nub of what official churchdom truly believes about the value and position of women. They are there to support men, like food or a mode of transport. They have little inherent worth.

Incidentally, I am not the only person who thinks that Rome hasn’t spoken for the last time on this issue. Many Catholic theologians believe the ordination of women is still in the Church’s future. Not in MY lifetime, nor even those of my sons’. But the future of the Church stretches out for many decades and centuries before us.
 
canadianguy1143 said:
ChemicalBean, I would like to appreciate your post better. Is it your belief that the Catholic Church should ordain women?
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I should like you to appreciate my post for what it was - a rebuke to another poster for a crass and deeply offensive analogy. We’re not talking biology/sex-ed/health class here. We’re talking about our identity through Christ and the foundations of faith. My beliefs on the sub-topic at hand have no bearing on the validity of my statement.

Further, if you can accept my statement as basically true (I’m not a theologian), then faith should cause you to question and wrestle with the Church’s position on women and priesthood, as it has so caused many other faithful Catholics who love the Church.

Baptism effects an indelible ontological change; original sin is removed, we receive the Holy Spirit and participation in the Divine life, and we are formally incorporated with Christ. We do not have separate rites of baptism for males and females, so the practice of our faith shows us that there is only one type of ontological change. Yet, when it comes to priesthood, some will argue that a baptized woman is invalid “matter” because her ontological change is somehow different than a baptized man’s. This makes no sense, like most attempts to justify the Church’s position upon examination. Calls from people like Terry_Ypsi to shut down dialogue and “accept it or leave” do harm to the Church and stymie the maturation of the faithful.
 
A good test of any religious proposition is: "How does this help save souls?"

Theologians who try to finesse us towards heresy and attacking the Church will ultimately fail, miserably, as there’s no life in what they say and do. Their words are boring, arid, nebulous and useless to someone worried about their salvation and seeking holiness.

If they didn’t have their status in the Church as a platform, no one would give two straws for their ‘challeging ideas’.

The Old Testament Jews saw what priestesses meant in neighbouring religions and had nothing to do with them. It’s the folly of this generation that we know better than our forefathers. So now we have some old evils come 'round again; sorcery, public promotion of homosexuality, abortion, all promoted as good.

Now, a priestess has an important role in the new witch cults. Interesting that there seems to be an overlap between liberal sisters and ‘new age’ ideas.
 
The ordination of women is off the table. It simply will not happen, ever. Women are not inferior to men, nor men inferior to women. We are simply different genders, biologically and psychologically and emotionally. We will remain men and women in heaven, not neutered individuals.

A priest’s function and identity is to act in the person of Christ. Christ, in his human nature, is a man, and consequently a woman is not valid matter for ordination. Had Christ been female, a man would not be valid matter for ordination. The essence of priesthood is to act “in persona Christi.” The Church has no authority to require Christ to assume a different gender.

This is no more unfair than is the fact that men are unable to give birth, and no man could ever have been designated “Theotokos” or Mother of God.
 
bkovacs said:
She is WRONG!!!

Why do you think the church is sexist?. Because of no women priests!?. Then God must be sexist. Take it up with him.

Less clerical?. Why not go join the Baptists. They have no clerics.

Open to lay ministry. They have enough lay ministries. If you are thinking that lay people should replace Priests. Sorry no go!.

Her Church existed in the 60’s and 70’s. A failure and damaging period for the Church.
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First of all, the huffingpost is biased. This nun is worshipping the radical feminist god. She also worships evolution. These false idols need to be exposed for what they are. We need cooperation and greater understanding between the sexes as the Church teaches. Scientific theories need to stay away from the Deposit of Faith given by God.

Change is not always good as Catholics who lived through the '60s and 70s know.

Peace,
Ed
 
ChemicalBean said:
I should like you to appreciate my post for what it was - a rebuke to another poster for a crass and deeply offensive analogy. We’re not talking biology/sex-ed/health class here. We’re talking about our identity through Christ and the foundations of faith. My beliefs on the sub-topic at hand have no bearing on the validity of my statement.

Further, if you can accept my statement as basically true (I’m not a theologian), then faith should cause you to question and wrestle with the Church’s position on women and priesthood, as it has so caused many other faithful Catholics who love the Church.

Baptism effects an indelible ontological change; original sin is removed, we receive the Holy Spirit and participation in the Divine life, and we are formally incorporated with Christ. We do not have separate rites of baptism for males and females, so the practice of our faith shows us that there is only one type of ontological change. Yet, when it comes to priesthood, some will argue that a baptized woman is invalid “matter” because her ontological change is somehow different than a baptized man’s. This makes no sense, like most attempts to justify the Church’s position upon examination. Calls from people like Terry_Ypsi to shut down dialogue and “accept it or leave” do harm to the Church and stymie the maturation of the faithful.
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Pope John Paul II wrote that the Church has no authority to ordain women. Period. That’s it. God is called Father and Son. This is God’s arrangement, not man’s.

Peace,
Ed
 
All this is much ado about nothing. Sr. Joan, God love her, does not realize that she is irrelevant. To continue the Shakespearean trope, her writings are a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
 
sidonius said:
All this is much ado about nothing. Sr. Joan, God love her, does not realize that she is irrelevant. To continue the Shakespearean trope, her writings are a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
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I think that is pretty much true. She is part of an aging generation of Catholic progressives who thought that Vatican II was changing Church doctrine. But it wasn’t, of course.
 
edwest2 said:
Pope John Paul II wrote that the Church has no authority to ordain women. Period. That’s it. God is called Father and Son. This is God’s arrangement, not man’s.

Peace,
Ed
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Other Popes have set down rules which were changed later on.
 
When I reflect upon the images of Pope John Paul II and Mother Theresa interacting harmoniously together, each smiling and radiant, at perfect ease with one another in their respective roles, I find a compelling reference point, which affirms for me, the blessed order assigned to the roles of the different sexes in our religion. These two saints, standing together, yet in dfifferent roles, represented harmony in a way that transcended all forms of socio-political rhetoric. Were this particular renegade nun to have been present during their meeting, her strident, shrill discord would have surely been replaced by dumbstruck awe.
 
Yes, yes, it could press the self-destruct button, I suppose. Just like a Protestant sect. But I doubt it will.

The world doesn’t need another Church which follows the whims of fashion. It has plenty. It does need a Church with a strong connection to the Font Of All Holiness and which works diligently to maintain and strengthen that connection.

Priestesses? Been done, seen the effects.
Married clergy? Sure. The Orthodox have them. But note, their bishops have to be celibate. Interesting, no?

Honestly, what use is a religion that basically says “You’re OK, I’m OK, just be nice, let the ladies have a go”? Super, if life’s goin’ well for ya, but when you’re in the trenches and the enemy’s advancing, who you gonna call?

The Christ Consciousness? The Goddess (which one?) Your own personal Jesus?

“Bless me Mother-Father for I have sinned?”

[heh heh heh]
 
*You’re doing something right when you attract the toughest critics out there. 😉 The Catholic Church has always taken the moral high ground, on all issues…and doesn’t waiver. That is why so many attack Her. If we bent with every new-ism that fluttered about, we wouldn’t be worth attacking. :o *
 
If she wants a subjective ‘‘church’’ that promotes sin…but calls it choice…or whatever…she should start her own. Stop trying to make the Catholic Church bend to what you want Her to be…because the truth is this. If She did bend this way or that…someone else would come along and not be happy about that particular change…and then want Her to bend another way to meet their whim. The Catholic Church, which many forget who have left Her…or are dissenting…is a Church given to us by Christ Himself. For some reason, there is this notion out there that the Church is a man made institution that should ‘‘do away’’ with this or that…God’s laws preside over the Church. Once people start to accept that the Church is not a business that can change its mission statement at whim, they would come to love Her, and stop attacking Her. They’d understand and respect Her.
 
unafraid said:
When I reflect upon the images of Pope John Paul II and Mother Theresa interacting harmoniously together, each smiling and radiant, at perfect ease with one another in their respective roles, I find a compelling reference point, which affirms for me, the blessed order assigned to the roles of the different sexes in our religion. These two saints, standing together, yet in dfifferent roles, represented harmony in a way that transcended all forms of socio-political rhetoric. Were this particular renegade nun to have been present during their meeting, her strident, shrill discord would have surely been replaced by dumbstruck awe.
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👍👍👍
 
In times like these I’m reminded of a humorous remark.

‘God is dead’ - Nietzsche.
‘Nietzsche is dead’ - God.

Throughout the nearly 2000 years of the Catholic Church’s existence, She has been faced with Roman Emperors, Kings, Princes, Barbarians, Communists, and Nazis…but She has not been wiped from the face of the earth as temporal earthly kingdoms have.

Certain people, shout aloud that if the Church does not change her teaching, She will disappear. However, the Church has taught the same Deposit of Faith since the beginning, as God has revealed it to Her. Our obedience is to God and not to weak, changeable men.

The Emperors Nero, Dormitian, and Decius (among others) couldn’t defeat Her.
Adolf Hitler couldn’t
Lenin couldn’t
Stalin couldn’t.

So I really doubt that some government department will conquer.

Humility is one of the key virtues of Catholicism. We are creatures made in the image of God. God was not made in our image.
 
i just read the article and like many i am sickened. Too many other religions conform to this secular, changing world we live in. What makes the C.C. so unique versus others is the fact that she really doesnt change, especially on her teachings. That is just one of the many things that brought me back to the one true church. It will always be the one constant in this world never conforming to what man wants her to be. Praise Jesus Christ our Savior for giving us this gift, The Catholic Church!!!
 
ChemicalBean said:
How dare you compare woman to an asparagus! Woman, like Man, is made in the image and likeness of God. No more so, no less so. Through Baptism, woman, also like man, is re-configured to the image of Christ. No more so, no less so. An asparagus merely glorifies God through the beauty of its natural creation and serves to provide us with food. The fact that you would make this analogy is just sickening. The fact that another poster would further compare woman to a jackass is worse.
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So pointing out a fallacy is offensive? I don’t think so. I would also say that a man can’t be a mother, or join a female religious order, any more than a turnip can. By saying that, I’m not calling men turnips; I’m making a logical point. (I don’t think the other poster was comparing women as a class to jackasses either. Some individual women are jackasses, including Joan Chittister. So are some men.)

I would agree with your statement that “Woman, like Man, is made in the image and likeness of God. No more so, no less so.” But being equally valued by God does not mean being THE SAME, nor does it mean having the same ROLES. Chittister and other feminists push the lie that gender roles are mere social constructions that need to be eliminated, or at least exploited politically to foment hatred between the sexes. This is post-modernist absurdity that does nothing to alleviate real oppression in the real world.
 
"The rethinking of these four things — clericalism, gender equality, the lay vocation and theology in the light of evolution — will grow the church up to the measure of a global world.”

Sister Joan is right, in part, the rethinking is necessary, but it is necessary in the light of Christ not evolution. As members of the Church Christ founded we must always strive to follow Him who is the Way, and the Truth, He who makes all things new. This doesn’t mean following the latest fad or fancy (like Women Priests) but remaining true to the founding principles of our Faith and rediscovering that beauty which is so ancient and so new.

Our Church, our Faith is God given, NOT man made.
 
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