Catholicism - A Hate Crime in Canada?

[onetimeposter]

OK, so it’s a “hate crime” for you to publicly profess your commonly-held, historically-based beliefs, but it’s NOT a “hate crime” for a tribunal to repress those beliefs?

Where did this hyper-sensitive politically-correct tribunal get its power anyway, and how can they be removed?

An act of Parliament. They would have to be legislated out of existence.

This is the same tribunal that successfully and consistently has White Supremacist / Nazi web sites shut down, the owners of the sites fined and banned from creating similar sites in the future.

Careful you don’t throw the baby out with the bath water!

 

[JimG]

Do they also shut down out of country websites? The Internet is not limited to one country.

If they thought that CAF posters were being hateful, would they come down to San Diego to shut it down?

Is free speech contingent in Canada? Is the state allowed to eliminate free speech based on the content of the speech? That is inimical to the whole idea of free speech.

 

[cyberjacques]

And this isn’t the only example of the law being used to persecute Christians in Canada. One of the most flagrant examples involved a gay student at a Catholic high school in the Toronto area several years ago. The gay student wanted to take his gay partner to the senior prom, and the high school said he could not. Then the gay student went to court and the judge ordered the high school to let him go to the prom. Nor, the judge ordered, could the high school cancel the prom. Local politicians including the mayor of Tornoto applauded this decision, the state in this way becoming involved by their open support. And a corporation hired a limosine to take the gay couple to the prom. There are other cases as bad as this one over the last several years.

Of course, you’d never see this kind of thing if a Muslim school refused to let a gay student take their partner to the prom. The Canadian courts would most likely bend over backwards to make an exception for them, and then pat themselves on the back for being so religiously tolerant.

 

[Phemie]

Of course, you’d never see this kind of thing if a Muslim school refused to let a gay student take their partner to the prom. The Canadian courts would most likely bend over backwards to make an exception for them, and then pat themselves on the back for being so religiously tolerant.

No, you wouldn’t see that for the simple reason that, unlike Catholic schools, Muslim schools are private.

 

[cyberjacques]

No, you wouldn’t see that for the simple reason that, unlike Catholic schools, Muslim schools are private.

Actually, this brings to mind the question of why Catholic schools in Canada are not private. Is there a particular reason for this? I’ve never heard of a religious school not being private, which suggests that there is some underlying difference in their system.

Though, in more direct response to your post, I would offer the challenge that even if Muslim schools were not private, the double standard would remain intact. With all the countless examples of Christianity being raked across the coals in Canada, is there even one example that someone could offer of another religion being held to the same rules?

 

[onetimeposter]

Actually, this brings to mind the question of why Catholic schools in Canada are not private. Is there a particular reason for this? I’ve never heard of a religious school not being private, which suggests that there is some underlying difference in their system.

Though, in more direct response to your post, I would offer the challenge that even if Muslim schools were not private, the double standard would remain intact. With all the countless examples of Christianity being raked across the coals in Canada, is there even one example that someone could offer of another religion being held to the same rules?

There are private Catholic schools…of course, for the wealthy.

Tax funded Catholic schools have been in Canada since 1841. Tax funded Catholic Schools are constiutionally protected.
Tax funded Catholic Schools work are attached to the communities Catholic Church.
Tax funded Catholic schools allow for millions of Canadians to receive a Catholic education…instead of thousands.

I’m a bit taken aback by the people finding a problem with wide open Catholic schools for every Ontario Citizen ( if they choose).

Tax funded Catholic schools are constantly under attack from every angle in Ontario…but like I said, they are constitutionally protected. and the average Catholic Ontarian seems quite vocal in relation to keeping their schools in town.

The Ontario Catholic Board of Education is also very wealthy, properly run and in no danger of going the way of the dodo.

 

[Phemie]

Actually, this brings to mind the question of why Catholic schools in Canada are not private. Is there a particular reason for this? I’ve never heard of a religious school not being private, which suggests that there is some underlying difference in their system.

Here’s an explanation of how it came about in Ontario, based on the rights Catholics had in Upper Canada prior to confederation. Each territory was guaranteed that any rights to denominational education that were in place upon entry into confederation would be retained.

Though, in more direct response to your post, I would offer the challenge that even if Muslim schools were not private, the double standard would remain intact. With all the countless examples of Christianity being raked across the coals in Canada, is there even one example that someone could offer of another religion being held to the same rules?

I have another take on it: I offer that in a Muslim school a student wouldn’t publicly spit in the face of his religion’s teaching the way Hall did at his.

 

[onetimeposter]

Do they also shut down out of country websites? The Internet is not limited to one country.

If they thought that CAF posters were being hateful, would they come down to San Diego to shut it down?

Is free speech contingent in Canada? Is the state allowed to eliminate free speech based on the content of the speech? That is inimical to the whole idea of free speech.

There is no room for people spreading Hate in Canada. If you are in Canada and are spreading Hate on the internet…if found guilty in a human rights tribunal…your site will be removed, you will be fined and if you want to spread hate…you will have to go elsewhere.

It’s simple…we have the right to free speech…and we also have hate crime laws.

It is a fine balance, but one that works…like I said, let them spread there hate somewhere else…but not in my backyard.

 

[JimG]

Is there any part of the bible which, being quoted, could result in a charge of hate speech? Or any part of the Quran? Could standing up for the teachings of one’s faith result in a charge of hate speech? What distinguishes hate speech from disagreement or admonishment? (i.e., when Jesus called the pharisees a bunch of snakes.)

 

[peregrinus_WA]

Is there any part of the bible which, being quoted, could result in a charge of hate speech? Or any part of the Quran? Could standing up for the teachings of one’s faith result in a charge of hate speech? What distinguishes hate speech from disagreement or even admonition?

You are exactly right.

The opponents of Christianity and especially Catholicism is using the as a bludgeon to silence, and ultimately criminalize, Christianity because it is in direct opposition to the immorality perpetrated by the Relativism of the left. When they are done with Christianity, they will go after other that they are using as their “allies” if they do not fit their agenda.

 

[onetimeposter]

You are exactly right.

The opponents of Christianity and especially Catholicism is using the as a bludgeon to silence, and ultimately criminalize, Christianity because it is in direct opposition to the immorality perpetrated by the Relativism of the left. When they are done with Christianity, they will go after other that they are using as their “allies” if they do not fit their agenda.

Not in Canada…some in the Religious right have tried to bring this point up, but no one pays them any attention. It’s blatant fear mongering.

Christianity is in no danger of being silenced in Canada.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Actually, this brings to mind the question of why Catholic schools in Canada are not private. Is there a particular reason for this? I’ve never heard of a religious school not being private, which suggests that there is some underlying difference in their system.

The public Catholic schools are special treatment for Catholics, because catholics were a large group who contributed to education. It’s a blessing for Catholics in Canada that we get special treatment.

I don’t believe the court ruling about the gay couple attending the prom had anything to do with the school being private or publicly funded. It was purely about human rights. There simply hasn’t been a case of a gay muslim couple trying to attend a prom at a private muslim school and taking it to court.

 

[onetimeposter]

The public Catholic schools are special treatment for Catholics, because catholics were a large group who contributed to education. It’s a blessing for Catholics in Canada that we get special treatment.

I don’t believe the court ruling about the gay couple attending the prom had anything to do with the school being private or publicly funded. It was purely about human rights. There simply hasn’t been a case of a gay muslim couple trying to attend a prom at a private muslim school and taking it to court.

I couldn’t have said it better.

 

[Phemie]

The public Catholic schools are special treatment for Catholics, because catholics were a large group who contributed to education. It’s a blessing for Catholics in Canada that we get special treatment.

I don’t believe the court ruling about the gay couple attending the prom had anything to do with the school being private or publicly funded. It was purely about human rights. There simply hasn’t been a case of a gay muslim couple trying to attend a prom at a private muslim school and taking it to court.

It wasn’t a simple case of human rights, it was imposing on a Catholic school something that our religion teaches is immoral. If the school had been private the court couldn’t have imposed this.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

It wasn’t a simple case of human rights, it was imposing on a Catholic school something that our religion teaches is immoral. If the school had been private the court couldn’t have imposed this.

If you have a quote from the ruling or a legal analysis of it that supports what you’re saying, I’d like to read it.

The constitution forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation. I just assume the ruling was based on this clause in the constitution, which has nothing to do with public funding.

 

[D_M]

The Canadian government has threatened catholic dioceses in Canada with withdrawing funding in the past because of certain statements made by bishops who have told catholics not to vote for abortion or same-sex marriage, which being a political platform linked to the conservative party also is seen as a violation of church and state.

I’ve never heard of the same threat being issued against the United Church or Anglican churches for supporting same-sex marriage though…

Other than that though, there are the incidents that come up like these ones that appear to be unfair although it is certainly not like North Korea up here when it comes to persecution of believers.

Canadians are majority theists, and catholics make up maybe a 1/3 of the total population, which is higher than what it is the United States. Many of the prime ministers, MPs and politicians are themselves catholics and therefore I don’t think it probable that they are going to pass an anti-catholic bill any time soon.

There are a lot of catholics in Canada who support same-sex marriage… I’ve heard the church in Quebec is experiencing significant problems with its own membership on this account as well as other issues like woman ordination.

Canada has some of the loosest restrictions on abortion found anywhere in the world I should also mention.

Although most Canadians are theists, religion plays no significant role in most of Canadian public life, and many people who claim to be christians themselves rarely ever attend church or practice the faith. Religious values may often be trumped by values of tolerance like in the examples quoted above. This is a society that by and large has turned its back on God.

 

[childofmary1143]

If you have a quote from the ruling or a legal analysis of it that supports what you’re saying, I’d like to read it.

The constitution forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation. I just assume the ruling was based on this clause in the constitution, which has nothing to do with public funding.

Were/are you in favor of Marc Hall taking his gay lover to the Catholic High School Prom?

 

[Ghoti]

The Canadian government has threatened catholic dioceses in Canada with withdrawing funding in the past because of certain statements made by bishops who have told catholics not to vote for abortion or same-sex marriage, which being a political platform linked to the conservative party also is seen as a violation of church and state.

That was when the Liberals were in power. Has there been any such activity with Harper’s Conservatives in power?

I’ve never heard of the same threat being issued against the United Church or Anglican churches for supporting same-sex marriage though…

Who knows, if someone puts a bug in the ear of the Right…

There are a lot of catholics in Canada who support same-sex marriage… I’ve heard the church in Quebec is experiencing significant problems with its own membership on this account as well as other issues like woman ordination.

Despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of Quebecois are (nominally) Catholic, the Church has lost much power and prestige since the Quiet Revolution; I think Catholicism is stronger (pound for pound, as it were) in English Canada. I think Quebeckers are far more secular today.

Canada has some of the loosest restrictions on abortion found anywhere in the world I should also mention.

Thank you, Dr Morgentaler. I think that abortion in Canada is the only medical procedure you can get on demand.

Although most Canadians are theists, religion plays no significant role in most of Canadian public life, and many people who claim to be christians themselves rarely ever attend church or practice the faith. Religious values may often be trumped by values of tolerance like in the examples quoted above. This is a society that by and large has turned its back on God.

I think, too, Christianity is identified with the still predominate European culture; that dominance, however, in in decline as Canada absorbs fewer immigrants from Europe, and far more from Asia (especially South Asia) and Africa. Islam is on the upswing. According to a report I read about politics in Canada, there’s a riding I think up in Brampton that is controlled by a Sikh caucus: the majority of the riding association (for both big parties) is Sikh, IIRC; the article indicated how this would ensure that Sikh interests would be addressed.

Also, immigrants tend to be more religious than local-born citizens, so the faiths to which they belong tend to see a renewal while the established locals sink into lazy apathy.

As for conservatism vs liberalism with regard to faithful Catholicism: Tommy Douglas proved you could be a conservative Christian and a progressive politician at the same time. Many of the old Red Tories were the same way – liberal, not libertine, if you will.

 

[Phemie]

If you have a quote from the ruling or a legal analysis of it that supports what you’re saying, I’d like to read it.

The constitution forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation. I just assume the ruling was based on this clause in the constitution, which has nothing to do with public funding.

From the judgement:

"It is not the task of a civil court to direct the Principal, the Board, the Roman Catholic Church or its members, or indeed any member of the public, as to what his or her religious beliefs ought to be. The separation of church and state is a fundamental principle of our Canadian democracy and our constitutional law… If individuals in Canada were permitted to simply assert that their religious beliefs require them to discriminate against homosexuals, without objective scrutiny, there would be no protection at all from discrimination for gays and lesbians in Canada because everyone who wished to discriminate against them could make that assertion.

If the Board’s view was correct, then section 93 would mean that Catholic schools had unfettered authority to do whatever they like on any matter. That is not the law . In 1867, homosexual activity was viewed both as a crime and as a sickness. Today it is viewed as neither. Canadians’ understanding of human behaviour and of its people has changed over the last 135 years.

The proper approach is to look at the rights as they existed in 1867 but then to apply 2002 common sense. In 2002, a School Board’s legal authority (whether public or separate) is part of our provincial public educational system which is publicly funded by tax dollars and publicly regulated by the province."

So they very much took the fact that it’s a publicly funded institution into consideration.

 

[Ghoti]

From the judgement:

…omitted…]

So they very much took the fact that it’s a publicly funded institution into consideration.

I don’t know how many private religious schools there are in NF; I am only aware of St Bon’s, which used to be Irish Christian Bros, but was bought (I believe) by the Jesuits when the schools were secularized and the Society lost Gonzaga. I don’t know if the same ruling would apply to them, should a similar situation arise.