Catholicism and Libertarianism

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catholictiger
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so if liberty is more important then the human person can a human person be forgotten or even sacrificed in the name of freedom. If liberty is more important than an issue that concerns more liberty or a better common good for the people you would choose liberty even if it hurts the common Good. I, and I believe the church, think the human being should be the
center focus of all policy of all ideologies and such. All human beings have a capox dei or capacity for God and all men are created in the image and likeness of god. Because of this all men should be treated fairly. There can never be a time where something like freedom should be promoted when it hurts a human person. The common good must be reached and in order for it to be reached the common good of all people be meet not a collective common good but each individuals common good. If 19,999 have their common goods met but 1 person doesn’t have it met in this case the common good isn’t fulfilled. **

All this emphasizes the fact that libertarians prefer freedom to morality.

I don’t know how freedom can last in a society that makes it increasingly possible each day to be immoral.

His burden is easy.
 
I am 100% in agreement with the Church’s teaching on government. There is only 1 problem. No such government exist. People are acting like we have such a government. What Country is it located in? I will move there today. Please let me know. What does the Church tell us to do if we have a corrupt government? Should we promote it in the disguise of “the common good”? That is exactly what is wrong with Church in the United States today. It is so dependent on the BILLIONS of dollars it receives from the government, it remains silent all to often regarding 54,559,615 murders committed since 1973. The Church promoted universal health care in the disguise of the common good. What we have in return is universal birth control and abortion. If you don’t want universal birth control, the government will fine you. You cannot expect a corrupt government to promote the common good. it is an oxymoron.
 
“Rebellion to tyranny is obedience to God.”
― Thomas Jefferson
 
90cacjdm said:
I am 100% in agreement with the Church’s teaching on government. There is only 1 problem. No such government exist. People are acting like we have such a government. What Country is it located in? I will move there today. Please let me know. What does the Church tell us to do if we have a corrupt government? Should we promote it in the disguise of “the common good”? That is exactly what is wrong with Church in the United States today. It is so dependent on the BILLIONS of dollars it receives from the government, it remains silent all to often regarding 54,559,615 murders committed since 1973. The Church promoted universal health care in the disguise of the common good. What we have in return is universal birth control and abortion. If you don’t want universal birth control, the government will fine you. You cannot expect a corrupt government to promote the common good. it is an oxymoron.
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It seems to me that much of the disagreements in this thread can be traced back to your point contrasting real (unjust) governments with the ideal (just) governments of the papal documents. We libertarians accept the* idea* of a just government–but never having seen one–we seek to minimize the aggressive violence committed by the real governments.
 
catholictiger said:
I actually don’t really know what is the best way to approach the violence issue. I’m not a pacifist and sorry if I came off that way. Violence and government is something I haven’t dealt with much yet.

the just wage is, I believe, the wage where a person is able to provide basic necessities for himself and his family. Any wage that wouldn’t allow him to not provide for himself and his family despite the fact that he/she may work a full work week is unjust.

I don’t know if a basic law of supply and demand can meet this just wage. For example lets say 5$ a week and 40 hours a week is what is required to provide for a family of 3 or fewer. Most people will work for 2 or 3$ an hour 1.50 or less it will be hard to find someone who is willing to work for that. A factory is willing to hire a large amount of people at 3$ an hour. So the law of supply and demand is met a equilibrium is met and the market of labor is in balance. But those people won’t be able to provide for their families. Even though creating a minimum wage will cause there to be a surplus demand and shortage of supply for jobs those who do have work at the minimum wage will be able to provide for their family. If someone
doesn’t have a sufficient wage to provide for his family then he has no freedom.
I am lost. So the Church’s teaching’s on “just governments” (I have never seen one) is that “just governments” should ignore “unjust government” exist in a global economy?

The “just government” will make sure that the working poor get a “just wage” for maybe 3 months. However, the "just government " will cause the business (because they cannot compete with the “unjust government” employees who do NOT receive a just wage) to go out of business. Then the “just government” company’s employees and their families get to starve to death because the “just government” actions. How can this possibly be Church Teaching? I believe that Church Teachings on “just governments” where assuming certain conditions where in place.
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90cacjdm said:
catholictiger;10332518:
I actually don’t really know what is the best way to approach the violence issue. I’m not a pacifist and sorry if I came off that way. Violence and government is something I haven’t dealt with much yet.

the just wage is, I believe, the wage where a person is able to provide basic necessities for himself and his family. Any wage that wouldn’t allow him to not provide for himself and his family despite the fact that he/she may work a full work week is unjust.

I don’t know if a basic law of supply and demand can meet this just wage. For example lets say 5$ a week and 40 hours a week is what is required to provide for a family of 3 or fewer. Most people will work for 2 or 3$ an hour 1.50 or less it will be hard to find someone who is willing to work for that. A factory is willing to hire a large amount of people at 3$ an hour. So the law of supply and demand is met a equilibrium is met and the market of labor is in balance. But those people won’t be able to provide for their families. Even though creating a minimum wage will cause there to be a surplus demand and shortage of supply for jobs those who do have work at the minimum wage will be able to provide for their family. If someone
doesn’t have a sufficient wage to provide for his family then he has no freedom.
I am lost. So the Church’s teaching’s on “just governments” (I have never seen one) is that “just governments” should ignore “unjust government” exist in a global economy?

The “just government” will make sure that the working poor get a “just wage” for maybe 3 months. However, the "just government " will cause the business (because they cannot compete with the “unjust government” employees who do NOT receive a just wage) to go out of business. Then the “just government” company’s employees and their families get to starve to death because the “just government” actions. How can this possibly be Church Teaching? I believe that Church Teachings on “just governments” where assuming certain conditions where in place.
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so to keep a buisness aflote you would be ok with them paying people less then a wage that they could live off of. Meaning they could be working a job which takes 40 hours of their week makes them exhausted and so on and so forth and not give them enough to live off of.

but I’m also kinda lost with your just government and unjust government thing here. What are you talking about.

are you talking about globalization of work? The Church has dealt with this issue as well I haven’t read as much on it but I think one of PBXVI deals with globalization.

but no matter if government is just or unjust its primary focus should always be the human person. IMO (maybe not the churches) someone who works a standard 40 hour work week and can’t provide for himself or his family is being treated unfairly and unjustly. His common good isn’t being met and the Government should step in and do something about it. The health of business in a country does have an impact on the well being of the economy I don’t disagree but you can’t sacrifice the well being of a human person for the well being of a business. If the prophet of a company goes down a few hundreds of thousands of dollars a year but the common good for society is met the Church goals is met.
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Reep said:
It seems to me that much of the disagreements in this thread can be traced back to your point contrasting real (unjust) governments with the ideal (just) governments of the papal documents. We libertarians accept the* idea* of a just government–but never having seen one–we seek to minimize the aggressive violence committed by the real governments.
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that is a reasonable concern and I mostly agree with you but I think there is a point where there is to little government and because of that people are not having their needs met where a little more government would do it.
 
catholictiger said:
that is a reasonable concern and I mostly agree with you but I think there is a point where there is to little government and because of that people are not having their needs met where a little more government would do it.
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Just a little more government. I think we crossed that line years ago. Maybe you do too…
 
catholictiger said:
90cacjdm;10335106:
so to keep a buisness aflote you would be ok with them paying people less then a wage that they could live off of. Meaning they could be working a job which takes 40 hours of their week makes them exhausted and so on and so forth and not give them enough to live off of.
ANSWER- YES, if it is between making something or nothing.

I just came back from Nicaragua. I visited the small town of La Chureca. La Chureca is a famous town for the wrong reasons. It is the municipal domestic and industrial waste-disposal site in Managua, Nicaragua. La Chureca aka the city dump. It is the saddest place I have ever seen. I got to speak with some of the residence there. After speaking them, it opened my eyes. I believe that even the poorest of the poor have the right to pursue happiness. If one of them want to open a business and hire other residence of La Chureca, they have the right to do so, even if the owner cannot pay himself or his employees a just wage. They should not be forced to live in a dump because the often misunderstood Church’s teaching on “just wages”. It just takes one person to have a great idea and start a business. The average small business does not make a profit in the first couple years of business. That does not mean that they should close their doors if the end result puts everyone is a worse position.

One of the men there told me that the government GAVE him a little house a few years back. He told me that he sold it and moved back to La Chureca. I asked him why and he said that he needed the money. He told me that he thinks the government should GIVE him another house. I told him that an education was worth more than a house, he disagreed with me and told me that he was not interested in school.

Human nature states that you appreciate something that you had to work for more than if the exact same thing is given to you. Free things sound great, however, if you are given something, you are less likely to understand or appreciate it as much as if you earned it.

However, remember there is no such thing as free. Nicaragua provides all of its citizens: free education, free healthcare, free transportation, etc

The result: the country is broke. The doctors do not have the medicine to treat their patients, the schools do not have the resources to educate their students, their public transportation very dangerous. It is broke because everything is free!! The Bishops did a very poor job in this country in the past. The Bishop told these poor people that Christians fighting against Somoza would be doing so in accordance with Just War theory. When FSLN took Managua, the archbishop actually held a victory mass. The bishop issued statements that supported socialism to these poor people. It played a huge part it helping this Marxist Government come into power and keep its power. All the Marxist Government had to do was LIE to the Church. The Catholic Church should never trust or make a deal with the devil. However, the devil know how easy it is to confuse people about the Church’s teaching on “just war”, “just wages” and “social justice”. The Pope has had consistently denounced liberation theology. However, certain Bishops have blatantly been disobedient.
but I’m also kinda lost with your
government and unjust government thing here. What are you talking about.
ANSWER- My point is simple, “just governments” don’t exist and have never existed in a perfect sense. The Church’s teachings on “just governments” are very deep. Do not take one line, from one teaching, and say, “take it or leave it.” It is very easy to misinterpret or use the teachings of the Catholic Church inappropriately. When that happens, the results are catastrophic. Nicaragua, is a great example of this.
are you talking about globalization of work? The Church has dealt with this issue as well I haven’t read as much on it but I think one of PBXVI deals with globalization.

but no matter if government is just or unjust its primary focus should always be the human person. IMO (maybe not the churches) someone who works a standard 40 hour work week and can’t provide for himself or his family is being treated unfairly and unjustly. His common good isn’t being met and the Government should step in and do something about it. The health of business in a country does have an impact on the well being of the economy I don’t disagree but you can’t sacrifice the well being of a human person for the well being of a business. If the prophet of a company goes down a few hundreds of thousands of dollars a year but the common good for society is met the Church goals is met.
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Thank you so much for this example. This will help me explain myself. The example listed above is NOT the Catholic Church’s teaching for one BIG reason. This is the most common mistake people make. *********** “no matter if government is just or unjust” ****

unjust- according to the Merriam-Webster: characterized by injustice : unfair 2 archaic : dishonest, faithless.

When should you you trust: injustice, unfair, dishonest and faithless to promote the common good ? Expecting injustice to promote justice is NOT the Church’s teaching. I hope I am saying this so this is crystal clear, injustice is the exact opposite of justice. Injustice can never be the same as justice. Do NOT hand over authority to the devil in the disguise of Catholic Teaching.

I said before that I am in 100% agreement with the Catholic’s Church teaching. I just see her teachings getting abused. Leaders often use certain trigger words the Pope’s say and twist them around for their benefit. You should never expect evil to promote good. If you see evil promoting good, beware.
Click to expand...
 
so to keep a buisness aflote you would be ok with them paying people less then a wage that they could live off of. Meaning they could be working a job which takes 40 hours of their week makes them exhausted and so on and so forth and not give them enough to live off of.
ANSWER- YES, if it is between making something or nothing.

I just came back from Nicaragua. I visited the small town of La Chureca. La Chureca is a famous town for the wrong reasons. It is the municipal domestic and industrial waste-disposal site in Managua, Nicaragua. La Chureca aka the city dump. It is the saddest place I have ever seen. I got to speak with some of the residence there. After speaking them, it opened my eyes. I believe that even the poorest of the poor have the right to pursue happiness. If one of them want to open a business and hire other residence of La Chureca, they have the right to do so, even if the owner cannot pay himself or his employees a just wage. They should not be forced to live in a dump because the often misunderstood Church’s teaching on “just wages”. It just takes one person to have a great idea and start a business. The average small business does not make a profit in the first couple years of business. That does not mean that they should close their doors if the owner cannot provide his family or his employees a just wage for the 1st couple of years.

One of the men there told me that the government GAVE him a little house a few years back. He told me that he sold it and moved back to La Chureca. I asked him why and he said that he needed the money. He told me that he thinks the government should GIVE him another house. I told him that an education was worth more than a house, he disagreed with me and told me that he was not interested in school.

Human nature states that you appreciate something that you had to work for more than if the exact same thing is given to you. Free things sound great, however, if you are given something, you are less likely to understand or appreciate it as much as if you earned it.

However, remember there is no such thing as free. Nicaragua provides all of its citizens: free education, free healthcare, free transportation, etc

The result: the country is broke. The doctors do not have the medicine to treat their patients, the schools do not have the resources to educate their students, their public transportation very dangerous. It is broke because everything is free!! The Bishops did a very poor job in this country in the past. The Bishop told these poor people that Christians fighting against Somoza would be doing so in accordance with Just War theory. When FSLN took Managua, the archbishop actually held a victory mass. The bishop issued statements that supported socialism to these poor people. It played a huge part it helping this Marxist Government come into power and keep its power. All the Marxist Government had to do was LIE to the Church. The Catholic Church should never trust or make a deal with the devil. However, the devil know how easy it is to confuse people about the Church’s teaching on “just war”, “just wages” and “social justice”. The Pope has had consistently denounced liberation theology. However, certain Bishops have blatantly been disobedient.
but I’m also kinda lost with your
government and unjust government thing here. What are you talking about.
ANSWER- My point is simple, “just governments” don’t exist and have never existed in a perfect sense. The Church’s teachings on “just governments” are very deep. Do not take one line, from one teaching, and say, “take it or leave it.” It is very easy to misinterpret or use the teachings of the Catholic Church inappropriately. When that happens, the results are catastrophic. Nicaragua, is a great example of this.
are you talking about globalization of work? The Church has dealt with this issue as well I haven’t read as much on it but I think one of PBXVI deals with globalization.

but no matter if government is just or unjust its primary focus should always be the human person. IMO (maybe not the churches) someone who works a standard 40 hour work week and can’t provide for himself or his family is being treated unfairly and unjustly. His common good isn’t being met and the Government should step in and do something about it. The health of business in a country does have an impact on the well being of the economy I don’t disagree but you can’t sacrifice the well being of a human person for the well being of a business. If the prophet of a company goes down a few hundreds of thousands of dollars a year but the common good for society is met the Church goals is met.
Thank you so much for this example. This will help me explain myself. The example listed above is NOT the Catholic Church’s teaching for one BIG reason. This is the most common mistake people make. *********** “no matter if government is just or unjust” **** YES THIS MATTERS!!!

unjust- according to the Merriam-Webster: characterized by injustice : unfair 2 archaic : dishonest, faithless.

When should you you trust: injustice, unfair, dishonest and faithless to promote the common good ? Expecting injustice to promote justice is NOT the Church’s teaching. I hope I am saying this so this is crystal clear, injustice is the exact opposite of justice. Injustice can never be the same as justice. Do NOT hand over authority to the devil in the disguise of Catholic Teaching.

I said before that I am in 100% agreement with the Catholic’s Church teaching. I just see her teachings getting abused. Leaders often use certain trigger words the Pope’s say and twist them around for their benefit. You should never expect evil to promote good. If you see evil promoting good, beware.
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t the government print the money? It isn’t really ours then is it? They can demand their share back.
 
Gricken said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t the government print the money? It isn’t really ours then is it? They can demand their share back.
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Exactly. This has been the Church’s position ever since Jesus said it.
 
Gricken said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t the government print the money? It isn’t really ours then is it? They can demand their share back.
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Correction. The money governments have, is their money, not ours. Once taxes are collected, the money ceases to be ours.
 
That money wouldn’t be in your pocket if the government hadn’t printied it.
 
Gricken said:
That money wouldn’t be in your pocket if the government hadn’t printied it.
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Like I should be grateful that my money is backed by nothing but the same government that has intentionally destroyed 95% of its value in 100 years. What a joke! At least Caesar’s denarius had some precious metal in it.
 
No but you can he greatful for everything else the government is able to provide through those taxes. You aren’t entilted to any of those services. Or the money the government makes,
 
Gricken said:
No but you can he greatful for everything else the government is able to provide through those taxes. You aren’t entilted to any of those services. Or the money the government makes,
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I’ve paid taxes every day since I was a child, so I certainly am entitled to the precious little good it does me. Mostly, however, I get very little that I even care about and I pay too much for the privilege.

Even worse, I am forced to pay for things I don’t want and even for things that are highly offensive, immoral or both. Right now, my tax dollars are probably droning some poor kid in Pakistan. You go ahead and put good face on it. I won’t.
 
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