Catholicism and Libertarianism

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Charlemagne_II said:
catholictiger

**libertarians want the government to keep their hands off his view fits that view exactly. Libertarains want to leave marriage to religion and social groups not the government getting their hands involved in it. **

Not so.

sanduskyregister.com/blog/blog-jackson-street-beat/2808396
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just because libertarians vote a certain way doesn’t mean they don’t want a hands off type governmnt, they may believe that because government mandates marriage as man women that it should also mandate it women women or man man. it would surprise me if libertarians are really for government intervention in things like marriage. It goes against the philosophy that backs their political beliefs. Personally I bet I could talk to many libertarians and they would agree with my statements.
 
catholictiger

just because libertarians vote a certain way doesn’t mean they don’t want a hands off type governmnt, …

Then they are not at all consistent, are they?
 
Charlemagne_II said:
catholictiger

just because libertarians vote a certain way doesn’t mean they don’t want a hands off type governmnt, …

Then they are not at all consistent, are they?
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I plead not guilty. Come on guys, it’s hardly fair for one state-supporter to set up a straw men for another state-supporter to knock down.

I don’t believe that either of the two main protagonists in this thread (i.e. me and “Seeker” --who began it) have written anything inconsistent with the libertarian non-aggression principle (that no one may aggress against another. No more. No less). To the extent that anyone deviates from that principle, they are not quite libertarian. In charity, I might call them libertarian-leaning.
Sister Don’tTreadOnMe, M.Y.O.B.
http://freeisbeautiful.net/wp-content/uploads/Nuns.jpg
 
It would be nice if libertarians would not tread on (aggress against) the values of conservatives. The fact of the matter is that libertarians are all for the proliferation of every kind of deviant behavior possible. They have in the past fifty years been fairly successful, and have only several major battles left to fight. By then the moral pollution of our society will be complete. Conservatism will be so weak that even the Catholic Church (once the visible champion of decency and common sense) will be thoroughly impotent and irrelevant.

Catholic Libertarians constitute a Trojan Horse within the Catholic Church.
 
btw the main libertarian position (atleast according to one of the smartest economics in the 20th century milton friedman) is that people should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn’t take away someone else’s freedom to do what they want.

this can be reason to be pro life btw.
 
catholictiger said:
btw the main libertarian position (atleast according to one of the smartest economics in the 20th century milton friedman) is that people should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn’t take away someone else’s freedom to do what they want.

this can be reason to be pro life btw.
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Interesting… selling addictive drugs could then be considered taking away someone’s freedom to act, no? In fact, all sinful behavior is enslaving, therefore all forms of tempting people, such as producing or selling pornography, would be prohibited.
 
ill let the actual libertarians on this board answer that question, I think they have a different definition of freedom then the church does
 
catholictiger

btw the main libertarian position (atleast according to one of the smartest economics in the 20th century milton friedman) is that people should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn’t take away someone else’s freedom to do what they want.

The implication here is that libertarianism must be better than conservatism, because conservatism imposes limits on human conduct. The plain fact of the matter is that conservatism stresses values that keep society together and sane rather than flying insanely off in every direction.

The conservative also values freedom. He defends the right to be rationally free and not surrounded by predators who are free to victimize him the first chance they get. It is these predators who want the laws and traditions to slowly erode to the point where the conservative is not “free” to live in a free and decent society because pornography and drugs and prostitution are excused by law on the grounds they are victimless crimes.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
catholictiger

btw the main libertarian position (atleast according to one of the smartest economics in the 20th century milton friedman) is that people should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn’t take away someone else’s freedom to do what they want.

The implication here is that libertarianism must be better than conservatism, because conservatism imposes limits on human conduct. The plain fact of the matter is that conservatism stresses values that keep society together and sane rather than flying insanely off in every direction.

The conservative also values freedom. He defends the right to be rationally free and not surrounded by predators who are free to victimize him the first chance they get. It is these predators who want the laws and traditions to slowly erode to the point where the conservative is not “free” to live in a free and decent society because pornography and drugs and prostitution are excused by law on the grounds they are victimless crimes.
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with the exception of war and death penalty I agree with conservatives on social issues. Abortion, Porn, drugs, gay marriage and so on and so forth. But I’m not such a huge fan on their economic policies I kinda consider them liberal light or kaynes light. They believe in the same thing liberals do when it comes to economics, they think flooding the market with money will slow down economic depressions or recessions. They believe taking money out of the market when things are going very well. Conservatives may say they are capitalists or people who believe in free enterprise but their economic theories are very based on kanyesian economic theories which I hate and I think are only well respected because apparently they did well after the war. I am more of an Australian economist which unfortunately is only held by libertarians. I think this economic theory which is pretty much let the free market control things and don’t interfere with the workings of the free market. Because the free market is the most effective way to bring economic growth to almost all societies countries like the united states and even countries in Africa like Uganda.

when it comes to politics I consider myself independent, I refuse to associate myself with the republican party, I could go into many issues with them, and I refuse to associate myself with the democratic party. I usually vote GOP but that is because this two party system has way to much say in this country and personally I believe if we don’t change it this country will continue to go down the path its going down. Things like abortion will be thrown to the side because, “It hurts the party to much to actively be for it.” Gay marriage will become legal and both parties once its legal won’t do much to go back to the way it was. Personally I believe Catholics need to stop buying into this party stuff and start preaching the truth.

sorry I kinda went on a rant there but this stuff means alot to me. I use to be a libertarian and in some ways I still kinda am a libertarian, but I don’t like to associate myself with political parties I’m CATHOLIC and I believe what the Church teaches and that is how I vote, and if I were a politician (which I probably won’t be) the teachings of the Catholic Church would influence how I vote and what I support not the ways of the party.
 
Either libertarianism is false or the Popes are advocating theft on a massive scale in multiple encyclicals calling for redistribution of wealth.

Or, let’s crank it up a notch, according to Gaudium et spes:
The right of private ownership, however, is not opposed to the right inherent in various forms of public property. Goods can be transferred to the public domain only by the competent authority, according to the demands and within the limits of the common good, and with fair compensation. Furthermore, it is the right of public authority to prevent anyone from abusing his private property to the detriment of the common good.
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Now, I am a free market capitalist, but keep in mind that the Holy Father did say that democratic socialism is a close approximation of the Catholic vision.
 
MarcusAndreas said:
Either libertarianism is false or the Popes are advocating theft on a massive scale in multiple encyclicals calling for redistribution of wealth.
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Bingo.

Again, one can support certain libertarian positions merely as prudence. You cannot support them in principle.

For instance, I might be able to say “it’s a bad idea to tax income.” You can call this a libertarian position if you like, but it’s not what most libertarians believe. Most libertarians believe taxation is morally convertible with theft – not that it’s bad in practice but that it’s evil in principle. That is flatly contradictory with the Church’s teachings. You cannot, in that sense, be a good *principled *libertarian and a good Catholic at the same time.

Libertarianism is a very close cousin of leftism, an extremely pernicious vision. If you want to oppose liberalism (and every Catholic should) there are saner policy positions out there. Look into the reactionary/counterrevolutionary schools of thought such as are outlined in the “Orthosphere” and elsewhere.
 
Libertarianism is a very close cousin of leftism
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It’s usually considered to be of the far right but Rothbard and Konkin both considered themselves of the far left.
 
MarcusAndreas said:
It’s usually considered to be of the far right but Rothbard and Konkin both considered themselves of the far left.
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That’s because the modern right is itself a species of leftism, being in thrall as it is to leftist fantasies of “freedom” and “equality.”

Libertarianism is utterly alien to the real right, the historical right, the right that corresponds to human history prior to 250 or so years ago – the right of the French counterrevolutionaries and the opponents of the Risorgimento.
 
Robert Bork, a Catholic convert, wrote an essay titled “The Case for Censorship.” In it he contrasts with his keen legal mind the claims of libertarians against censorship and the claims of conservatives for it. A must read for anybody who wants to know how different libertarians are from conservatives on the social issues.
 
everyone involved in this discussion should alteast read the compendium of Catholic Social doctrine and the economics part. Also reading Centesimus Annus and Rerum Novarum would be a good thing to read. I believe that it Sheeds some light on libertarianism and its compatibility with Catholic Teaching. Gaudium et Spes isn’t bad either but Rerum Novarum and Centesimus Annus both speak directly to economic issues. I think there was another document on the 50th anniversary of rerum novarum but I don’t remember its name.
 
catholictiger said:
Rerum Novarum and Centesimus Annus both speak directly to economic issues. I think there was another document on the 50th anniversary of rerum novarum but I don’t remember its name.
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Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, 40 years after Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum.
 
MarcusAndreas said:
Either libertarianism is false or the Popes are advocating theft on a massive scale in multiple encyclicals calling for redistribution of wealth.

Or, let’s crank it up a notch, according to Gaudium et spes:

Now, I am a free market capitalist, but keep in mind that the Holy Father did say that democratic socialism is a close approximation of the Catholic vision.
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whoa whoa whoa whoa

My understanding of Catholic Social Doctrine is that the Church’s view of economics isn’t close to democratic socialism. NOT AT ALL alteast in my view. Really sense Leo XIII the Church has been for a right to private property and little if any intrusion by the state. Really the only state intrusion is if as Gauidum Et Spes says is a detriment to the common good. But the state just can’t come in a take someone’s property without compensation. From my understanding of Catholic Social teaching someone limited but not to much. Human beings have a right to private property but they also have a duty to remember that their goods should be used for everyone and used in a way that promotes the common good. IE the universal destination of goods.

btw when PBXVI says redistribution of wealth I don’t think he is talking about a socialist mentality of redistribution rather more charitable redistribution where more wealthily people give to those who are poor, not the state takes money from the rich and gives it to the poor. Same end result but different means to that result.

I don’t believe and I don’t think the Church does either that the state should be a welfare state the taxes we pay to the government should be for the improving of the common good, from good roads to good education systems, to a good medical system, good police and fire force. Legal stuff and so on and so forth. We shouldn’t pay taxes just to help mary jane to get off the street.

BTW I don’t see PBXVI changing about a hundred + years of understanding of economics and economic policy the Church has been developing he is just adding more perspectives to it.
 
I just thought I would post and I say that I am too a Catholic libertarian and I know “Reep” personally and have read “seeker’s” articles before. I think they did a wonderful job explaining what a Catholic libertarian would promote. I would also say that Catholic social teaching as far as it is understood concerning political and economic policies, has no binding authority on Catholics. The pope and by extension the official teaching authority of the Church can only bind Catholics conscious in matters of faith and morals. The church has no ability to change the laws of economics, any more then they can change the laws of physics.

So in general, as far the common good and things such as subsidiarity and solidarity, those are things that are important for all Catholics to remember when we discuss forms of government. But Catholics are free to discuss and debate how best to achieve these things. People like Reep, seeker, and I would agree that the political philosophy of libertarianism would be best way to achieve this. Other Catholics can disagree, but as long as we remember the principals that the Church teaches about faith and morals we are in our right to hold our ideas of how to best organize society.

Also as I have said before, any time that a pope or the catechism calls for the state to intervene in the economy, for example, he has went from discussing faith and morals to discussing a certain economic theory that they are not any more infallible in their opinion then any other person talking about economics.

Believe me when I first heard of libertarinism about a year ago, I had my doubts that libertarinsim could be compatible with Catholicism, and it took me a good 8 months to see that their was nothing contradictory about the two. People like Reep and Seeker helped me to see that not only is it compatible but that from at least my point of view, the libertarian political philosophy best achieves the principals that the Church encourages us to pursue concerning the common good and the well ordered society.

This talk by Jeffery Tucker, contributor at the ChantCafe.com and a fellow Catholic libertarian discusses the issues I have laid out above in a better way then I can. Please listen to it.

youtube.com/watch?v=NnQ5qgZrkSc
 
MarcusAndreas said:
Either libertarianism is false or the Popes are advocating theft on a massive scale in multiple encyclicals calling for redistribution of wealth.

Or, let’s crank it up a notch, according to Gaudium et spes:

Now, I am a free market capitalist, but keep in mind that the Holy Father did say that democratic socialism is a close approximation of the Catholic vision.
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👍
 
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