Catholicism and Science

[Bradski]

I haven’t read it, but Prof. Peter Kreeft and some other notable Catholics like it, so it must be fairly good.

As to the thread itself, what we observe in nature is variations within a species, and not an entirely new species. Isn’t that consistent with human development?

We also do not observe the formation of stars and galaxies and solar systems. Nature works a little too slow for those of us who are here for such a ridiculously short time.

So we don’t, and cannot observe the transformation from one species to another. But if that’s the only reason you have for discounting it, then maybe you should read the book before you give it to anyone else.

 

[po18guy]

We also do not observe the formation of stars and galaxies and solar systems. Nature works a little too slow for those of us who are here for such a ridiculously short time.

So we don’t, and cannot observe the transformation from one species to another. But if that’s the only reason you have for discounting it, then maybe you should read the book before you give it to anyone else.

But my opinion does not matter. The book seeks only to reconcile two areas of endeavor between which this modern world is artificially attempting to drive a wedge. Rather, best for us to ponder the notion that the two might just be in perfect harmony. I recall here that harmony is not everyone playing the same note, but compatible notes within a chord.

 

[meltzerboy]

My (opinion) is that they are simply misguided or wrong.

My Conservative Science Teacher says that Science is built on guesswork, and that Science and God Cannot disprove each other until Jesus Returns.

Climate Change is real, that’s a fact and Is part of church teaching. So is evolution.

Your conservative science teacher really says that?

 

[Bradski]

Rather, best for us to ponder the notion that the two might just be in perfect harmony.

Well, all I can say is that rather than sit and ponder, I might prefer to read what someone who thought they had a solution had to say about it. Especially if I had the book.

 

[grannymh]

Until Catholics find the courage to face the reality of basic evolution theory, there is no reason for discussion.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Of course, people should not fear science. In stead, they should face the fact that not all science is equal.

Do you know why busy beavers are not scientifically equal to yourself?

Busy beavers and humans can construct dams. Do you know why the scientifically built dams are not equal?

Remember that science is “observation without prejudice.”

Would you like to discuss geomorphology, mine or dam structure?

Or would you prefer to discuss logging and sustainable forestry?

Perhaps we could discuss exactly what you mean by

‘. Not all science is equal’ And what your evidence for this hypothesis is.

Are you placing more value in the discovery of penicillins, then in fault structure? If so, why?

This thread is about the OP trying to discern if he or she can have faith and science.

You have attempted to hijack it to expound your personal theology of the Book of Genesis. You have your own thread for that.

Yet, you totally discard St Pope John Paul 11’s wonderful encyclical on the science of moral theology, instead preferring to give this your own erroneous definition.
Thus

1. You are giving incorrect information out, and won’t own it when shown differently ( re the encyclical and what moral theology is about).
2. Totally ignoring anything Vatican on science.
3. Using sentences you refuse to explain when asked.
4. Nor have you explained what you believe the theory of evolution to be about, instead quoting erroneous understanding that occurred in a historical context.

You know this op might be considering a career in science, he or she might be the one to crack a cure for cancer, ms, mnd , dementia! etc, And struggling with

can he or she have faith and a scientific career.

Take your own advice and stop being so subjective in your answers because your prejudice is blinding you.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

We also do not observe the formation of stars and galaxies and solar systems. Nature works a little too slow for those of us who are here for such a ridiculously short time.

So we don’t, and cannot observe the transformation from one species to another. But if that’s the only reason you have for discounting it, then maybe you should read the book before you give it to anyone else.

On your first observation, go look through a telescope! The Vatican has some kick arse powerful telescopes. Point them in the right direction and you will see stars being born, galaxies forming, recently maybe a black hole, stars dying. It’s all happening out there.
Supernovas etc.

Check this awesomeness out

nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_1647.html

Aliens? Well if the Vatican has found them, it ain’t saying.

We also can look at rapid evolutionary changes in some species,

This is one of the most common cited and a classic.

Pepper moths during the industrial revolution.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

During the industrial revolution pollution all but blocked out the sun

 

[Bradski]

On your first observation, go look through a telescope! The Vatican has some kick arse powerful telescopes. Point them in the right direction and you will see stars being born, galaxies forming, recently maybe a black hole, stars dying. It’s all happening out there.

You won’t see anything of the sort. What you will see is a snapshot of a process that is measured in units of time that we cannot comprehend on a very basic level.

What you are saying is akin to showing someone a still of The Godfather and telling them that they can see the story that the film tells. Unless you sit through the whole thing, you can’t appreciate it.

As far as we are concerned, from an individual human perspective, the cosmos is static. It changes so slowly that it might as well not be changing at all. The constellations will look exactly the same to you on the day you die as they did on the day you were born.

Similarly, the evolutionary changes that will occur during your lifetime will be effectively zero. There will be be NO measurable changes in a single lifetime.

But…you can see young stars and old ones and use the information from both to understand how stars are created and how they grow and how they die. Just like we can look at extant species and understand how they came to be.

If you are lucky, you might see a supernova. And if you are unfortunate, you may see some species becoming extinct. But you won’t see any new species coming into existence.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

You won’t see anything of the sort. What you will see is a snapshot of a process that is measured in units of time that we cannot comprehend on a very basic level.

What you are saying is akin to showing someone a still of The Godfather and telling them that they can see the story that the film tells. Unless you sit through the whole thing, you can’t appreciate it.

As far as we are concerned, from an individual human perspective, the cosmos is static. It changes so slowly that it might as well not be changing at all. The constellations will look exactly the same to you on the day you die as they did on the day you were born.

Similarly, the evolutionary changes that will occur during your lifetime will be effectively zero. There will be be NO measurable changes in a single lifetime.

But…you can see young stars and old ones and use the information from both to understand how stars are created and how they grow and how they die. Just like we can look at extant species and understand how they came to be.

If you are lucky, you might see a supernova. And if you are unfortunate, you may see some species becoming extinct. But you won’t see any new species coming into existence.

Bradski, you said we can’t see the formation of stars, we can. They have developed technology to film in space. We can actually see stars being born and stars dying. We don’t require a young and an old star to join the dots.

The cosmos is not static, it’s a dynamic system. Go look through NASA to find examples.

Here’s one on film captured from an observatory in Chile

theguardian.com/science/video/2013/aug/21/birth-new-star-observatory-video

The pepper moth example changed pretty fast.

As far as new species coming into existence ,

Here’s two examples

wsj.com/articles/scientists-observe-wasps-evolving-into-new-species-1446229404

And viruses and bacteria. Oh and flies all those Ph.D thesis are about.

And

phys.org/news/2017-04-species-evolve-faster-mountains.html

I think a Catholic science thread is needed. There are so many misconceptions out there.

 

[Bradski]

Bradski, you said we can’t see the formation of stars, we can. They have developed technology to film in space. We can actually see stars being born and stars dying. We don’t require a young and an old star to join the dots.

The cosmos is not static, it’s a dynamic system. Go look through NASA to find examples. Here’s one on film captured from an observatory in Chile.

That’s not a film. It is a compilation of static images that each show exactly the same thing. And taken with a telescope that is a few billion times better than you can see. Which is my point. You can’t see it. You can’t experience it. It’s not available to us as ‘mere mortals’.

And viruses and bacteria. Oh and flies all those Ph.D thesis are about.

All artificial and none of it germane to my point.

 

[grannymh]

Would you like to discuss geomorphology, mine or dam structure?

Or would you prefer to discuss logging and sustainable forestry?

Perhaps we could discuss exactly what you mean by

‘. Not all science is equal’ And what your evidence for this hypothesis is.

Are you placing more value in the discovery of penicillins, then in fault structure? If so, why?

This thread is about the OP trying to discern if he or she can have faith and science.

You have attempted to hijack it to expound your personal theology of the Book of Genesis. You have your own thread for that.

Yet, you totally discard St Pope John Paul 11’s wonderful encyclical on the science of moral theology, instead preferring to give this your own erroneous definition.
Thus

1. You are giving incorrect information out, and won’t own it when shown differently ( re the encyclical and what moral theology is about).
2. Totally ignoring anything Vatican on science.
3. Using sentences you refuse to explain when asked.
4. Nor have you explained what you believe the theory of evolution to be about, instead quoting erroneous understanding that occurred in a historical context.

You know this op might be considering a career in science, he or she might be the one to crack a cure for cancer, ms, mnd , dementia! etc, And struggling with

can he or she have faith and a scientific career.

Take your own advice and stop being so subjective in your answers because your prejudice is blinding you.

Thank you for providing an example of thinking skills.

 

[grannymh]

This thread is about the OP trying to discern if he or she can have faith and science.

From post 1
“So how in the heck do people keep thinking that these two can’t ever be incompatible?”

I assume, from the thread’s title, that the “faith” refers to Catholicism.

What cannot be accurately assumed are the implications of the word “science.” For example. Birds, bacteria, bananas, and buffalo all belong in the material world. The human person, Genesis 1: 27, is in the spiritual world of God. The spiritual world is different from the material world of decomposing anatomies.

Members of the Catholic Church have the right to free speech. Therefore, when discussion is about the material world of stars and sand or any other part of the material world, opinions, speculations, observable evidence, etc., are proper. This is because the Catholic Church does not use major ecumenical church councils to define and affirm scientific teachings based solely in the material world.

Regarding my subjective feelings – I feel good about belonging in the spiritual world.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

That’s not a film. It is a compilation of static images that each show exactly the same thing. And taken with a telescope that is a few billion times better than you can see. Which is my point. You can’t see it. You can’t experience it. It’s not available to us as ‘mere mortals’.

All artificial and none of it germane to my point.

Virus and bacteria are not artificial. They make the world go around. They evolve really fast.

As far as seeing what’s going on in the sky , of course you can.
Ah but you can see it. Sit there in front of a telescope and watch. Join an observatory, buy a telescope…
And get lucky.
Or even with your own eye,…

Get back to me in a few years
news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/01/see-star-explode-2022-nova-cygnus-skywatching-space-science/

I have a family member whose hobby is photographing this stuff. He is a mere mortal .
Pretty awesome.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Ah but Adam and Eve still died. And decomposed.
Their material body belonged to the same material world as that fruit tree and serpent.
I hope you are not going to ignore the flesh of their bodies was flesh just as a buffalo and a bird has flesh. Fruit is flesh. Bacteria is ?..?..

Granny, this is what Jesus had to say about the human person ,

When Jesus was teaching Nicodemus.

Remember Jesus said no one can see the Kingdom of God unless they are born again
Nicodemus says
How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. (Baptism)

6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Jesus is saying we are both flesh and of the Holy Spirit. . Flesh gives birth to flesh. Our blood and guts, the material us.

The Spirit, as I am sure you can understand, being charismatic is The Holy Spirit.

You cut, you will bleed. We will die and rot, just like a bat, bacteria, water buffalo. Dust to dust…

We belong as flesh to the material world, and our soul to the supernatural world.

Our material body will be transformed at resurrection. It’s pretty doubtful much of anyone’s will be left. A bunch of bones maybe. God will be working hard that day.

But maybe when Bradski is sitting up watching his star being born…boom! The end of the world.

The word science has a definition. Within that definition belong it’s framework.

Perhaps you could demonstrate your thinking skills and answer a few questions…

 

[edwest2]

Bradski, you said we can’t see the formation of stars, we can. They have developed technology to film in space. We can actually see stars being born and stars dying. We don’t require a young and an old star to join the dots.

The cosmos is not static, it’s a dynamic system. Go look through NASA to find examples.

Here’s one on film captured from an observatory in Chile

theguardian.com/science/video/2013/aug/21/birth-new-star-observatory-video

The pepper moth example changed pretty fast.

As far as new species coming into existence ,

Here’s two examples

wsj.com/articles/scientists-observe-wasps-evolving-into-new-species-1446229404

And viruses and bacteria. Oh and flies all those Ph.D thesis are about.

And

phys.org/news/2017-04-species-evolve-faster-mountains.html

I think a Catholic science thread is needed. There are so many misconceptions out there.

Science has nothing to do with the supernatural. Science is science. There is no Catholic science. There can’t be. God created everything but science cannot study God.

So, no more misconceptions. The “believe in science compliance test” will fail here every time. Every time it is brought up - every time.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

Virus and bacteria are not artificial. They make the world go around. They evolve really fast.

As far as seeing what’s going on in the sky , of course you can.
Ah but you can see it. Sit there in front of a telescope and watch. Join an observatory, buy a telescope…
And get lucky.
Or even with your own eye,…

Get back to me in a few years
news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/01/see-star-explode-2022-nova-cygnus-skywatching-space-science/

I have a family member whose hobby is photographing this stuff. He is a mere mortal .
Pretty awesome.

Bacteria do not evolve. They have a mechanism that is in place that activates when they come into contact with harmful material. Horizontal Gene Transfer means they can exchange genetic material, which humans can’t. This built-in mechanism exists for that purpose. So yes, they can modify themselves and some will survive.

Ed

 

[Bradski]

Virus and bacteria are not artificial. They make the world go around. They evolve really fast.

That’s the equivalent of saying that mammals evolve really fast. You need to do some reading.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

That’s the equivalent of saying that mammals evolve really fast. You need to do some reading.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut and advice

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Bacteria do not evolve. They have a mechanism that is in place that activates when they come into contact with harmful material. Horizontal Gene Transfer means they can exchange genetic material, which humans can’t. This built-in mechanism exists for that purpose. So yes, they can modify themselves and some will survive.

Ed

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut and advice

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Science has nothing to do with the supernatural. Science is science. There is no Catholic science. There can’t be. God created everything but science cannot study God.

So, no more misconceptions. The “believe in science compliance test” will fail here every time. Every time it is brought up - every time.

Ed

I am struggling to understand how your response is relevant to my post?

Or where I said any of that?