Catholicism and the Body of Christ--one in the same?

[Angainor]

I have recently been made aware (in another thread) of a [post=1392766]teaching in the CCC[/post].
Paragraph 818:
“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”
This almost begins to suggest, but does not explicitly say that there are non-Catholics in the Body of Christ.

Also from [post=1394423]that thread[/post]:

Philthy:

False accusation - The Church only decides in the affirmative who has died and gone to heaven by declaring them Saints. The Church never decides who has been excluded - even if they exclude you from membership of the Church on earth - you are still not being judged as excluded from the body of Christ. In addition, the Church’s “denying” you approval is not really a “decision” that they make which results in your exclusion from the fullness of membership. It is a statement simply telling you that YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM is preventing you from being a full member of the Church - they are bound to deny you at this time. Big difference. For them to “accept” you with your current beliefs would be a lie. That is what the Church is supposed to do - let you know when your wandering a bit so that you recognize the need for change. It is not all about feeling “accepted” regardless of the beliefs. They are not judging you,as excluded from the mystical body of Christ - which is the Church, nor are they deciding TO exclude you from the mystical body of Christ. Big difference.

Philthy references a mystical body of Christ that Catholicism makes no judgement on my inclusion in.

I have not yet grasped the concept of CCC paragraph 818 but I want to try to understand it. I think Philthy may be incorrect in his characteriztion of the Body of Christ.

If Catholics makes any distinction between “Catholicism” and “The body of Christ” this would be big news to me.

I guess what I want to is:
Do Catholics make a distinction between Catholicism and The Body of Christ? If so, what is it?

 

[Della]

Angainor:

I have recently been made aware (in another thread) of a [post=1392766]teaching in the CCC[/post].
Paragraph 818:
“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”
This almost begins to suggest, but does not explicitly say that there are non-Catholics in the Body of Christ.

Also from [post=1394423]that thread[/post]hilthy references a mystical body of Christ that Catholicism makes no judgement on my inclusion in.

I have not yet grasped the concept of CCC paragraph 818 but I want to try to understand it. I think Philthy may be incorrect in his characteriztion of the Body of Christ.

If Catholics makes any distinction between “Catholicism” and “The body of Christ” this would be big news to me.

I guess what I want to is:
Do Catholics make a distinction between Catholicism and The Body of Christ? If so, what is it?

Phlithy is only making the distinction between being a formal member of the Church–one who practices the Catholic faith–from being a member of Christ’ body, the Church, by reason of your trinitarian baptism. He is saying you are included in the Church, which is the Body of Christ, but you are a separated brother because you do not practice the Catholic faith. Does that help or makes things worse?

 

[Angainor]

Della:

Phlithy is only making the distinction between being a formal member of the Church–one who practices the Catholic faith–from being a member of Christ’ body, the Church, by reason of your trinitarian baptism. He is saying you are included in the Church, which is the Body of Christ, but you are a separated brother because you do not practice the Catholic faith. Does that help or makes things worse?

No, that does not help me. I always thought someone is either part of the Church or they’re not. What you are trying to say is totally foreign to me. “Formal member?”

 

[hurst]

Angainor:

This almost begins to suggest, but does not explicitly say that there are non-Catholics in the Body of Christ.

If a Protestant baptizes their baby, then that baby is in the Body of Christ. Furthermore, even though it is in a non-Catholic family, the baby is truly Catholic. This is because the Church accepts it as such. Baptism can be administered by anyone in the absence of a priest.

So yes, some “non-Catholics” are actually Catholic.

However, once these babies grow up and accept the errors of Protestantism, then they are no longer joined to the Church. They are “separated brethren”, and are called to return to the fold they were baptized in. They cannot be baptized again, for there is only one baptism and one faith.

Angainor:

I guess what I want to is:
Do Catholics make a distinction between Catholicism and The Body of Christ? If so, what is it?

The Catholic Church is the visible body of Christ. The soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit. One should be joined both in heart and body, but it is possible to be joined in heart only.

In fact, it is possible to be joined in body only, but those are dead on the tree, and do not have life in spite of the fact they are visible members.

It is possible, in a manner known only to God, for those not visibly united to the Church to be saved. But it is wrong to assume that they are, for it is our duty to evangelize and testify to the Truth.

hurst

 

[Angainor]

hurst:

If a Protestant baptizes their baby, then that baby is in the Body of Christ. Furthermore, even though it is in a non-Catholic family, the baby is truly Catholic. This is because the Church accepts it as such. Baptism can be administered by anyone in the absence of a priest.

So yes, some “non-Catholics” are actually Catholic.

OK, I see how that works. Its totally offensive, but I see how it fits in Catholic doctrine.

hurst:

The Catholic Church is the visible body of Christ. The soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit. One should be joined both in heart and body, but it is possible to be joined in heart only.

In fact, it is possible to be joined in body only, but those are dead on the tree, and do not have life in spite of the fact they are visible members.

It is possible, in a manner known only to God, for those not visibly united to the Church to be saved. But it is wrong to assume that they are, for it is our duty to evangelize and testify to the Truth.

Here you are starting to lose me in medaphor, dead trees and whatnot.

 

[Genesis315]

All who are Baptised and have not separated themselves through the mortal sins of apostacy, heresy, or schism are members of the Body of Christ. It may be offensive, but that’s the way it is

And yes, the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ. St. Paul says the Church is the Body of Christ and we believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, not many.

That being said, due to the Reformation and the millions of denominations that have resulted and people have been born into, the the Body is not so easily delinieated anymore.

Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (The Mystical Body of Christ, the Church) June 29, 1943

1. They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous error who believe that they can accept Christ as the Head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible head, broken the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it.

 

[Angainor]

Genesis315:

That being said, due to the Reformation and the millions of denominations that have resulted and people have been born into, the the Body is not so easily delinieated anymore.

Not so easily delineated by whom? God?

Shall we assume that the Body has definite boundaries, even if you are not able to delineate those boundaries?

 

[montanaman]

Angainor:

Not so easily delineated by whom? God?

Shall we assume that the Body has definite boundaries, even if you are not able to delineate those boundaries?

Think of it like a water tower. The tower itself is the Church, but the water pipes go outward for miles. The water is grace. The farther away you get from the tower, the smaller the pipes. If you hook your house up to this water supply (i.e. become a non-Catholic Christian) you’re still receiving the good stuff, but not as much as you might need or is necessary.

Or, think of it like concentric circles. The middle is the fullness, but the farther out you go, the…well…my analogy/metaphor maker is low on power tonight. You get the idea.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Angainor:

I have recently been made aware (in another thread) of a [post=1392766]teaching in the CCC[/post].Paragraph 818:

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

This almost begins to suggest, but does not explicitly say that there are non-Catholics in the Body of Christ.

Also from [post=1394423]that thread[/post]hilthy references a mystical body of Christ that Catholicism makes no judgement on my inclusion in.

I have not yet grasped the concept of CCC paragraph 818 but I want to try to understand it. I think Philthy may be incorrect in his characteriztion of the Body of Christ.

If Catholics makes any distinction between “Catholicism” and “The body of Christ” this would be big news to me.

I guess what I want to is:
Do Catholics make a distinction between Catholicism and The Body of Christ? If so, what is it?

All who are validly Baptized are members of the *Mystical Body of Christ. *The Catholic Chruch can be said to be the fullness of the visible part of the Mystical Body.

 

[JSmitty2005]

If you would like to understand the Catholic perspective of the Mystical Body of Christ, read this:

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html

 

[Angainor]

montanaman:

my analogy/metaphor maker is low on power tonight. You get the idea.

Metaphors only go so far anyway.

Are the people known as “Catholics” (including [post=1395127]baptized babies[/post]) the only people in the Church or not?

Are the people known as “Catholics” (including baptized babies) the only people in the body of Christ or not?

 

[montanaman]

Angainor:

Metaphors only go so far anyway.

Are the people known as “Catholics” (including [post=1395127]baptized babies[/post]) the only people in the Church or not?

Are the people known as “Catholics” (including baptized babies) the only people in the body of Christ or not?

No. Somebody posted something about the “mystical body of Christ” above. I don’t pretend to understand or even LIKE that idea, but then, that’s just me being a Catholic elitest. And, it seems to square our ideas of God’s perfect mercy.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Angainor:

Metaphors only go so far anyway.

Are the people known as “Catholics” (including [post=1395127]baptized babies[/post]) the only people in the Church or not?

Are the people known as “Catholics” (including baptized babies) the only people in the body of Christ or not?

“Only those are really to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith and who have not unhappily withdrawn from Body-unity or for grave faults have been excluded by legitimate authority.”

(Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi)

 

[volzcpa]

Angainor:

Metaphors only go so far anyway.

Are the people known as “Catholics” (including [post=1395127]baptized babies[/post]) the only people in the Church or not?

Are the people known as “Catholics” (including baptized babies) the only people in the body of Christ or not?

1. According to St. Paul, only the baptized faithful are members of Christ’s Body. The baptized become one in Christ Jesus: Gal 3:27-28 *“All baptized in Christ, you have all clothed yourselves in Christ, and there are no more distinction between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus”. * In Titus 3:5-6 Paul says *“he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, " * At baptism, the faithful become sharers in the Divine Life of Christ.
2. The Church is the Body of Christ. Paul says in Eph 5:23. *“For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.” * And in Eph 5:29 “For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.”

Therefore you must be baptized to be in the Body of Christ and the Church is the Body of Christ, so if you are baptized (Using the words “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”) you are in the Body of Christ and in the Church.

 

[Philthy]

Angainor:

I have recently been made aware (in another thread) of a [post=1392766]teaching in the CCC[/post].Paragraph 818:

… All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

This almost begins to suggest, but does not explicitly say that there are non-Catholics in the Body of Christ.

You are tripping on terms, keep reading…

Angainor:

Also from [post=1394423]that thread[/post]hilthy references a mystical body of Christ that Catholicism makes no judgement on my inclusion in.

That is correct - we are not judging your eternal state.

Angainor:

I have not yet grasped the concept of CCC paragraph 818 but I want to try to understand it. I think Philthy may be incorrect in his characteriztion of the Body of Christ.

You are justified in questioning anything I post, but I think you will find my information accurate. The problem - at least partially- will be your own lack of understanding some definitions and concepts.

Angainor:

If Catholics makes any distinction between “Catholicism” and “The body of Christ” this would be big news to me.

We shall see what “big news” means…

Angainor:

I guess what I want to is:
Do Catholics make a distinction between Catholicism and The Body of Christ? If so, what is it?

Yes : God makes the ultimate decision as to who is incorporated into the mystical body of Christ. The term used for the mystical body of Christ is “the Catholic Church” by people who identify themselves as “Catholics”. There are some people, however, who did not profess to be “Catholic” during their earthly lifetime, whom God may deem worthy of inclusion into His kingdom upon their death. They become “Catholic” in our eyes because they become part of the mystical body of Christ, which is the Church, which we have defined as “the Catholic Church”.
Remember: the Church is the pillar and foundation of TRUTH - it is not the ultimate form of judgement on a soul. It will comment on issues of the faith to relate what is TRUE and what is not…

 

[John_Henry]

Angainor:

I guess what I want to iso Catholics make a distinction between Catholicism and The Body of Christ? If so, what is it?

The CC is the Body of Christ. Anyone who is baptized is put into communion with the Body of Christ/CC. However, the communion of those who remain outside her visible walls is imperfect. They are Christians by virtue of their communion with the Body of Christ/CC, but living without the benefits of full communion (Eucharist, confession, sacramentals), making it more difficult to get to heaven. If their remaining outside the church is not done in invincible ignorance (which nobody is capable of judging, except maybe the person and God), their separation from the CC is culpable and damnable. Otherwise, they may reach heaven.

 

[Angainor]

Philthy:

Yes : God makes the ultimate decision as to who is incorporated into the mystical body of Christ. The term used for the mystical body of Christ is “the Catholic Church” by people who identify themselves as “Catholics”. There are some people, however, who did not profess to be “Catholic” during their earthly lifetime, whom God may deem worthy of inclusion into His kingdom upon their death. They become “Catholic” in our eyes because they become part of the mystical body of Christ, which is the Church, which we have defined as “the Catholic Church”.

John_Henry:

The CC is the Body of Christ. Anyone who is baptized is put into communion with the Body of Christ/CC. However, the communion of those who remain outside her visible walls is imperfect.

I’m going to think out loud here.

This mystical body of Christ is starting to look very similar to the Protestand doctrine of the invisible Church. It actually looks almost identical in form and function. The boundaries of the Church seem invisible. Humans can’t tell if any given non-Cathoic is part of or not part of the mystical body.

The differences seem to me are:

1. The Cathoic mystical body of Christ is partly visible (you know some people are in because they have a membership card) and partly invisible (the communion of those who remain outside her visible walls…).

The Protestant Church is all invisible.

1. The invisible aspect of the Catholic model is not design intent on God’s part (the communion of those who remain outside her visible walls is imperfect).

In the Protestant model, God intended the Church to be invisible.

Now there are many things God created for man that because of man’s sinfulness end up not always working according to God’s design intent (marriage, etc.) It does not immediatly seem to me that the Church would be one of those things.

 

[jimmy]

Della:

Phlithy is only making the distinction between being a formal member of the Church–one who practices the Catholic faith–from being a member of Christ’ body, the Church, by reason of your trinitarian baptism. He is saying you are included in the Church, which is the Body of Christ, but you are a separated brother because you do not practice the Catholic faith. Does that help or makes things worse?

No, protestants are not part of the Church. The Catechism of Trent specifically says that the Church consists of those who profess the Catholic faith and are subject to the pope. The Catechism of Pius X says the same thing. Vatican council II affirms this again. A protestant is not part of the Church, even though there is some mystical connection due to their trinitarian baptism.

The Church militant is composed of two classes of persons, the good and the bad, both professing the same faith and partaking of the same Sacraments, yet differing in their manner of life and morality. Catechism of Trent: Article IX

cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tcreed09.htm

**9 Q: State distinctly what is necessary to be a member of the Church? **

A: To be a member of the Church it is necessary to be baptized, to believe and profess the teaching of Jesus Christ, to participate in the same Sacraments, and to acknowledge the Pope and the other lawful pastors of the Church. Catechism of Pius X
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/pius/pcreed09.htm

Fully incorporated into the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who–by the bonds constituted by the
profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion–are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in
charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but “in body” not “in heart.”[12] All children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be
saved, but they shall be the more severely judged.[13]
Vatican Council II Dofmatic Constitution on The Church
rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/lumen.gen

A baby would be a different story since they do not have the capacity to profess any faith.**2 Q: What are the effects of the sacrament of Baptism? **

A: The sacrament of Baptism confers first sanctifying grace by which original sin is washed away, as well as all actual sin if any such exists; it remits all punishment due on account of such sins; it imprints the character of a Christian; it makes us children of God, members of the Church, and heirs to Paradise, and enables us to receive the other sacraments. Catechism of Pius X
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/pius/psacr-b.htm

It may not be doubted that in Baptism infants receive the mysterious gifts of faith. Not that they believe with the assent of the mind, but they are established in the faith of their parents, if the parents profess the true faith; if not–to use the words of St. Augustine–then in that of the universal society of the saints; for they are rightly said to be presented for Baptism by all those to whom their initiation in that sacred rite is a source of joy, and by whose charity they are united to the communion of the Holy Ghost. Catechims of Trent
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tsacr-b.htm

For an adult it is necessary to profess the Catholic faith and be subject to the pope, and for a baby baptism is enough. The modern catechism is in agreement with both these catechisms.

 

[Angainor]

**9 Q: State distinctly what is necessary to be a member of the Church? **

A: To be a member of the Church it is necessary to be baptized, to believe and profess the teaching of Jesus Christ, to participate in the same Sacraments, and to acknowledge the Pope and the other lawful pastors of the Church. Catechism of Pius X
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/pius/pcreed09.htm

This is what I always thought. But this does not immediatly seem to be consistant with what the other posters are telling me.

Anyone?

 

[Philthy]

**29 Q. **But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

Hmmmf - this is a distinction I was unaware of - the soul of the Church vs. the Body of the Church. Apparently one can be separated from the Body of the Church without being separated from the Soul of it. This seems contradictory to …

**9 Q: State distinctly what is necessary to be a member of the Church? **

A: To be a member of the Church it is necessary to be baptized, to believe and profess the teaching of Jesus Christ, to participate in the same Sacraments, and to acknowledge the Pope and the other lawful pastors of the Church.

…But here there is no distinction made between the Soul and the Body of the Church so that the term “member of the Church” now becomes vague. It is obviously best to believe and profess the teachings, participate in the Sacraments, and acknowledge the Pope, etc but it seems you can still be en route to salvation if you fall into the category I posted at the top. No?

A separate conclusion that one could reach from these two statements is the simple:
One can be outside the Church and be saved!
I assume that what is meant here is that one can be outside the Church Militant and still become a member of the Church Suffering and/or Church Glorious. Am I wrong?

I dug this up from the same Catechism to clarify:

22 Q. In what does the Soul of the Church consist?
A. The Soul of the Church consists in her internal and spiritual endowments, that is, faith, hope, charity, the gifts of grace and of the Holy Ghost, together with all the heavenly treasures which are hers through the merits of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, and of the Saints.

23 Q. In what does the Body of the Church consist?
A. The Body of the Church consists in her external and visible aspect, that is, in the association of her members, in her worship, in her teaching-power and in her external rule and government

This distinction makes it clear that one must be a member of the SOUL of the Church to attain SALVATION, which is what I believe the original topic was. None of this touches on the “mystical body of Christ” which is the Church in an explicit manner, so I will leave that topic for now. I will say this: the blanket statement that Protestants are not a member of “the Church” is ambiguous. They are not a member of the visible Body of the Church, but may be a member of the invisible Soul of the Church and therefore may be “on the way of salvation”…