Catholicism and the Body of Christ--one in the same?

[JSmitty2005]

“Only those are really to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith and who have not unhappily withdrawn from Body-unity or for grave faults have been excluded by legitimate authority.”

(Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi)

 

[JSmitty2005]

Philthy:

the blanket statement that Protestants are not a member of “the Church” is ambiguous. They are not a member of the visible Body of the Church, but may be a member of the invisible Soul of the Church and therefore may be “on the way of salvation”…

“But what is also to the point, let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles and preserved by the fathers. On this the church was founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is, nor any longer ought to be called, a Christian” -St. Athanasius (4th century)

 

[MonicaC]

hello everyone,

I have been reading throught this thread and find quit interesting. I thought I would throw in my two cents. i don’t pretend to be a scholor in the CC. I have always thought that everyone who has been baptised in the trinity is a Catholic. Now we must remember that being Catholic means that we are in the one church that Christ created. Now until that Catholic decides to reject the teaching of Christ he is than a seperated Catholic. Now to reject these teaching it would mean that you can not and probably donot want to to recieve the other graces that Christ has put in place for us. Like confession, communion ect. So with out these very essential sacraments we are very valnurible to sin.

Now we must also remember that God and only God knows ones heart and He loves everyone of his children and he will judge open what ones knowledge is of Him. So in other words a true Catholic will be expected more than say a Baptist. And a Baptist will be expected more than a Hindu. But with that said the Catholic, Baptist and Hindu are required to explore his belief and re-evalute it to find and know the truth.

I hope this helps,

Monca

 

[Altisimus]

The Catholic Church distinguishes between formal and informal heresy. Those who are born into other churches or ecclesial bodies are not held to be culpable for the sin of seperation, according to the CCC (those who originally entered into schism/heresy, that’s a different question, they are formal heretics)and are, by their Trinitarian baptism, joined albeit imperfectly, to the Catholic Church.

 

[jimmy]

[/indent]
This is what I always thought. But this does not immediatly seem to be consistant with what the other posters are telling me.

Anyone?

Because they are wrong. For an adult to be in the Church you must profess the faith of the Church. Since a baby does not have the mental ability to profess the faith of the Church they are a part of the profession of the saints. A protestant does have some connection to the Church by virtue of their baptism, but they are not a member of the Church.

 

[jimmy]

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

Hmmmf - this is a distinction I was unaware of - the soul of the Church vs. the Body of the Church. Apparently one can be separated from the Body of the Church without being separated from the Soul of it. This seems contradictory to …

**9 Q: State distinctly what is necessary to be a member of the Church? **

A: To be a member of the Church it is necessary to be baptized, to believe and profess the teaching of Jesus Christ, to participate in the same Sacraments, and to acknowledge the Pope and the other lawful pastors of the Church.

…But here there is no distinction made between the Soul and the Body of the Church so that the term “member of the Church” now becomes vague. It is obviously best to believe and profess the teachings, participate in the Sacraments, and acknowledge the Pope, etc but it seems you can still be en route to salvation if you fall into the category I posted at the top. No?

A separate conclusion that one could reach from these two statements is the simple:
One can be outside the Church and be saved!
I assume that what is meant here is that one can be outside the Church Militant and still become a member of the Church Suffering and/or Church Glorious. Am I wrong?

I dug this up from the same Catechism to clarify:

22 Q. In what does the Soul of the Church consist?
A. The Soul of the Church consists in her internal and spiritual endowments, that is, faith, hope, charity, the gifts of grace and of the Holy Ghost, together with all the heavenly treasures which are hers through the merits of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, and of the Saints.

23 Q. In what does the Body of the Church consist?
A. The Body of the Church consists in her external and visible aspect, that is, in the association of her members, in her worship, in her teaching-power and in her external rule and government

This distinction makes it clear that one must be a member of the SOUL of the Church to attain SALVATION, which is what I believe the original topic was. None of this touches on the “mystical body of Christ” which is the Church in an explicit manner, so I will leave that topic for now. I will say this: the blanket statement that Protestants are not a member of “the Church” is ambiguous. They are not a member of the visible Body of the Church, but may be a member of the invisible Soul of the Church and therefore may be “on the way of salvation”…

That is a false interpretation. There is one Church that is both in soul and body. As you mention the soul consists of faith, hope and charity in Christ. A reference to the soul of the Church is a reference to the relationship between Christ and His people. Yes, a protestant can recieve salvation. As I mentioned in both my posts above, there is a mystical connection between those who are invincibly ignorant and the Church. But they are not members of the Church or the ‘body of Christ’. There is one Church and it consists of both body and soul.

 

[Matt16_18]

Philthy:

**Q: State distinctly what is necessary to be a member of the Church? **

A: To be a member of the Church it is necessary to be baptized, to believe and profess the teaching of Jesus Christ, to participate in the same Sacraments, and to acknowledge the Pope and the other lawful pastors of the Church.

…But here there is no distinction made between the Soul and the Body of the Church so that the term “member of the Church” now becomes vague.

To become a member of the Church, one must receive the Sacrament of Baptism. To lose membership in the Church, one must commit the sin of heresy, apostasy, or be excommunicated.

A person can be a member of the Church, and also be in a state of mortal sin (e.g. an unrepentant adulterer). Such a person is united to the Church in faith and hope, but not charity. That is why there are two classes of persons who have membership in the Church; the good (those in a state of grace) and the bad (those not in a state of grace):The Church militant is composed of two classes of persons, the good and the bad, both professing the same faith and partaking of the same Sacraments, yet differing in their manner of life and morality. Catechism of Trent: Article IX

22 Q. In what does the Soul of the Church consist?
A. The Soul of the Church consists in her internal and spiritual endowments, that is, faith, hope, charity, the gifts of grace and of the Holy Ghost, together with all the heavenly treasures which are hers through the merits of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, and of the Saints.

23 Q. In what does the Body of the Church consist?
A. The Body of the Church consists in her external and visible aspect, that is, in the association of her members, in her worship, in her teaching-power and in her external rule and government

A member of the Church that is in a state of grace is united to the Body and the Soul of the Church. A member of the Church in a state of mortal sin is united to the Body of the Church, but not to the Soul of the Church. Members of the Church in a state of mortal sin are among the walking dead - they have no eternal life abiding within. They need to be brought back to life by repentance of their sin. Jesus taught all of this in the story of the prodigal son:for this my son was dead, and is alive again
Luke 15:24The prodigal son never lost his membership in the family when he was living in mortal sin, but he became spiritually dead by his dissolute life. He was alive in the body but dead in the soul. When he repented of his sin, his soul was brought back to life, and his Father rejoiced when he became alive again in the soul.

A person culpable in the eyes of God of the mortal sins of heresy or apostasy is neither a member of the Church, nor has eternal life abiding within. Protestants can be culpable for the mortal sin of heresy - or not. Whether they are formal heretics or merely material heretics depends on whether they are in a state of invincible ignorance - which is something that only God can judge.

Cafeteria Catholics can lose both their state of grace and their membership in the church by rejecting even one infallible teaching of the Church on a matter of faith or morals. Obstinate rejection of the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church is the definition of heresy, and heresy incurs the penalty of automatic excommunication.

 

[Philthy]

jimmy:

That is a false interpretation. There is one Church that is both in soul and body. As you mention the soul consists of faith, hope and charity in Christ. A reference to the soul of the Church is a reference to the relationship between Christ and His people. Yes, a protestant can recieve salvation. As I mentioned in both my posts above, there is a mystical connection between those who are invincibly ignorant and the Church. But they are not members of the Church or the ‘body of Christ’. There is one Church and it consists of both body and soul.

Thank you! Just to clarify what you are saying:

• A protestant can receive salvation
• A protestant is not a member of the Church - body or soul- during their lifetime.

OK. But somehow a Protestant who actually receives salvation BECOMES a member of the Church, right? How do we articulate this? They are outside the visible Church Militant during their lifetime and become incorporated into the Church Suffering/Glorified at judgement?

 

[Philthy]

Matt16_18:

To become a member of the Church, one must receive the Sacrament of Baptism. To lose membership in the Church, one must commit the sin of heresy, apostasy, or be excommunicated.

A person can be a member of the Church, and also be in a state of mortal sin (e.g. an unrepentant adulterer). Such a person is united to the Church in faith and hope, but not charity. That is why there are two classes of persons who have membership in the Church; the good (those in a state of grace) and the bad (those not in a state of grace):The Church militant is composed of two classes of persons, the good and the bad, both professing the same faith and partaking of the same Sacraments, yet differing in their manner of life and morality. Catechism of Trent: Article IXA member of the Church that is in a state of grace is united to the Body and the Soul of the Church. A member of the Church in a state of mortal sin is united to the Body of the Church, but not to the Soul of the Church. Members of the Church in a state of mortal sin are among the walking dead - they have no eternal life abiding within. They need to be brought back to life by repentance of their sin. Jesus taught all of this in the story of the prodigal son:for this my son was dead, and is alive again

Luke 15:24
The prodigal son never lost his membership in the family when he was living in mortal sin, but he became spiritually dead by his dissolute life. He was alive in the body but dead in the soul. When he repented of his sin, his soul was brought back to life, and his Father rejoiced when he became alive again in the soul.

A person culpable in the eyes of God of the mortal sins of heresy or apostasy is neither a member of the Church, nor has eternal life abiding within. Protestants can be culpable for the mortal sin of heresy - or not. Whether they are formal heretics or merely material heretics depends on whether they are in a state of invincible ignorance - which is something that only God can judge.

Cafeteria Catholics can lose both their state of grace and their membership in the church by rejecting even one infallible teaching of the Church on a matter of faith or morals. Obstinate rejection of the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church is the definition of heresy, and heresy incurs the penalty of automatic excommunication.

Thank you so much! I think I have a better much better grip now.

Hey Angainor - is this “big news”?

 

[Angainor]

Thank you so much! I think I have a better much better grip now.

Hey Angainor - is this “big news”?

No, it’s as I thought.

 

[Angainor]

:bounce: I’ve got one:

At the time of her death, Joan of Arc was not part of the visible Church (if you asked anyone alive at the time, they would say Joan was not Catholic when she died). 24 years later it was concluded that Joan was a member of the Church that whole time and anyone who thought otherwise was mistaken.

So, there has been at least one person in history who was part of the Church, but not the Visible Church. Is there anyone alive today that everyone thinks is not part of the Church but really is?