Catholicism in Scandinavia

[lerapt78]

Nils:
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. It’s quite rare indeed to find Scandinavians on this forum!

Also, unlike Britain and Germany, Catholicism had only been widespread in Scandinavia for about five hundred years before the Reformation, compared to nearly a thousand years in Britain and Germany, so it was less deeply rooted.

Most likely an important factor.

 

[Kosta]

Hello Anjoh! Great to see other Swedes here!

I think you are wrong on this one though. Did not King Johan III (John III in English) invite the Jesuits to Sweden? I was taught that this resulted in Liturgia Svecanae Ecclesiae, a mixture of Lutheran and Catholic liturgy. Later on the papal diplomat Antonio Possevino also came here, and King Johan III was even about to convert if it had not been for his demands that the Catholic Church would give out communion under both kinds and celebrate Mass in the local language…

Yours,
Nils

So would that explain why (at least from what I’ve read) Swedish Lutheranism seems to have a High Church tinge to it, whereas Denmark does not? If anyone here knows, where would that leave Norway?

 

[Nils]

So would that explain why (at least from what I’ve read) Swedish Lutheranism seems to have a High Church tinge to it, whereas Denmark does not? If anyone here knows, where would that leave Norway?

I have heard similar things and to me the Swedish Lutheran service is pretty much like any Catholic Novus Ordo Mass (they even call it “mass”). At some places they offer “confession” and they put up pictures of Mary and other saints…

The reason for this is that the more hard core Lutherans never managed to reform the church much, at least not on an exterior level, mainly because the laity would not accept it. Of course things changed with the years to come, but they also had a rather strong high church movement during the nineteen hundreds. My Confessor was actually an ordained Lutheran minister and he used to belong to this movement, but he says that they won the liturgical battle and lost the dogmatic one, which is probably true. Some of them are still seeking communion with Rome, others converted (like my Confessor), but most of them are older now, and the Lutheran leaders are not exactly working in the same direction. Today their church accept sodomy, they pray with muslims and are pretty much a joke in most teaching matters…

 

[Cojuanco]

Praying with Muslims or Jews is not necessarily wrong. Our Holy Father did so, and his predecessor before him, I believe.

 

[Jotto]

Is that why the High Church phenomenon within Lutheranism is strongest in Sweden?

The Church of Sweden (and because of the Swedish influence in Finland) the Church of Finland both retained the practice of apostolic succession, a succession that has apparently been quietly recognized as valid (with the exception, of course, for those women who are now being ordained to the priesthood and the episcopacy in Sweden and in Finland). If one looks at the list of bishop in any one of the 13 cathedrals in Sweden, all the bishops of the diocese are listed from Roman Catholic times until present (often only an asterisk indicates at which point the bishops ceased being in communion with the Papacy).

The Mass as it is celebrated in the Church of Sweden is essentially the Western Rite of the Church. And I am quite sure than any number of non-Swedish tourists walking into a Swedish church on Sunday would not realize (unless the presiding priest was a woman) that they were not in a Roman Catholic Church as the vestments and rubrics used are essentially the same as in a Roman Catholic Mass. Although only Baptism and the Eucharist are referred to as “sacraments,” all seven of the sacraments are available (though private confession is seldom used).

Male and female religious orders of Benedictines and Franciscans plus some others exist. Religious pilgrimages are quite common and there is generally a friendly relationship between theses churches and the Roman Catholic Church exists. Most of the members of the Roman Catholic Church in Scandinavia are immigrants although in the mid-20th Century a good many native Swedes converted to the Roman Catholic Church and now there are a number of native Swedish Roman Catholic priests. Also a "High Church group within the Swedish Church during the mid 19 hundreds sought union with the Roman Catholic Church (much like some Episcopalians in this country) while retaining their hymnology and a number of other things such as, I believe, the right to elect their bishops. But this for various reasons did not work out.

Through the Swedish Church, many of the Lutheran communions of Africa, Latin America and the Middle East have received the practice of apostolic succession including now the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America who succession was also received from the Episcopal Church USA.

 

[Nils]

Kosta;10841326:

Is that why the High Church phenomenon within Lutheranism is strongest in Sweden?

The Church of Sweden (and because of the Swedish influence in Finland) the Church of Finland both retained the practice of apostolic succession, a succession that has apparently been quietly recognized as valid (with the exception, of course, for those women who are now being ordained to the priesthood and the episcopacy in Sweden and in Finland). If one looks at the list of bishop in any one of the 13 cathedrals in Sweden, all the bishops of the diocese are listed from Roman Catholic times until present (often only an asterisk indicates at which point the bishops ceased being in communion with the Papacy).

The Mass as it is celebrated in the Church of Sweden is essentially the Western Rite of the Church. And I am quite sure than any number of non-Swedish tourists walking into a Swedish church on Sunday would not realize (unless the presiding priest was a woman) that they were not in a Roman Catholic Church as the vestments and rubrics used are essentially the same as in a Roman Catholic Mass. Although only Baptism and the Eucharist are referred to as “sacraments,” all seven of the sacraments are available (though private confession is seldom used).

Male and female religious orders of Benedictines and Franciscans plus some others exist. Religious pilgrimages are quite common and there is generally a friendly relationship between theses churches and the Roman Catholic Church exists. Most of the members of the Roman Catholic Church in Scandinavia are immigrants although in the mid-20th Century a good many native Swedes converted to the Roman Catholic Church and now there are a number of native Swedish Roman Catholic priests. Also a "High Church group within the Swedish Church during the mid 19 hundreds sought union with the Roman Catholic Church (much like some Episcopalians in this country) while retaining their hymnology and a number of other things such as, I believe, the right to elect their bishops. But this for various reasons did not work out.

Through the Swedish Church, many of the Lutheran communions of Africa, Latin America and the Middle East have received the practice of apostolic succession including now the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America who succession was also received from the Episcopal Church USA.

It should be noted that the Catholic Church does not recognize their claim to have apostolic succession because of validity reasons. My Confessor used to be a Lutheran pastor but he needed a new and valid ordination by a Catholic bishop once he converted and finished his formation. Many of the Lutheran ministers here were also “ordained” by female “bishops”…

But you are right about the good relations between the churches, even though tensions are increasing because of the large differences when it comes to morals and theology. Things like openly gay and transvestite clergy, divorce and gay “marriage”, abortion etc. makes it impossible to cooperate on a deeper lever.

Yours,
Nils

 

[Jotto]

Jotto;10861904:

It should be noted that the Catholic Church does not recognize their claim to have apostolic succession because of validity reasons. My Confessor used to be a Lutheran pastor but he needed a new and valid ordination by a Catholic bishop once he converted and finished his formation. Many of the Lutheran ministers here were also “ordained” by female “bishops”…

Yours,
Nils

Interesting, Nils, as I am aware of a case here in the United States where a bishop told a Lutheran pastor who was seeking admission to the Roman Church that if he could show that his ordination had come through the Swedish succession that he would not need to be re-ordained. Perhaps different Roman Catholic bishops take different positions on this matter. But as I wrote earlier, the position of Rome on the Swedish succession is quickly becoming irrelevant as more and more women are being consecrated as bishops both in Sweden and in Finland as well as in many other Lutheran communities. But since they have the promise that where two or three are gathered in his name, Christ will be with them, I don’t think Lutherans need be all that concerned about whether their Roman brothers and sisters consider their presbyters valid or not.

 

[Nils]

Nils;10874961:

Interesting, Nils, as I am aware of a case here in the United States where a bishop told a Lutheran pastor who was seeking admission to the Roman Church that if he could show that his ordination had come through the Swedish succession that he would not need to be re-ordained. Perhaps different Roman Catholic bishops take different positions on this matter. But as I wrote earlier, the position of Rome on the Swedish succession is quickly becoming irrelevant as more and more women are being consecrated as bishops both in Sweden and in Finland as well as in many other Lutheran communities. But since they have the promise that where two or three are gathered in his name, Christ will be with them, I don’t think Lutherans need be all that concerned about whether their Roman brothers and sisters consider their presbyters valid or not.

I have never heard of such a case. Here it is quite common that pastors want to convert, but it always means that they will have to go through seminary and be ordained all over again. Who was this pastor, and most importantly - your bishop? Is the case public somehow?

If you are Lutheran, you are probably not too concerned. Here the High Church people normally make a rather big deal about having apostolic succession though, even if their ordinations are not considered valid by either the Orthodox or the Catholics. It is the same with the Anglicans, of course.

 

[Inge_Torquemada]

I am from south France, but I living in Finnland. I am traditional Catholic and my way is contemplative. But in Finland is not possible go to Holy Mass gregorian Tridentine rite! Only 1 sunday in Helsinki and this is for me over 400km! I make travel for the Holy Mass over 800km! Yes, this country is horrible and absoluttely Godless! I dont like Finnland.
I am hermit, I living in old house in forest 30km from Kuopio town in middle Finnland.
My spirituality is contemplative Carthusian. I will also join to the Carthusian Order, I was in postulat in Marnhagues et Latour in France 6 montsh, but I am to old for Order.
I am 42 years old woman.

 

[Nils]

I am from south France, but I living in Finnland. I am traditional Catholic and my way is contemplative. But in Finland is not possible go to Holy Mass gregorian Tridentine rite! Only 1 sunday in Helsinki and this is for me over 400km! I make travel for the Holy Mass over 800km! Yes, this country is horrible and absoluttely Godless! I dont like Finnland.
I am hermit, I living in old house in forest 30km from Kuopio town in middle Finnland.
My spirituality is contemplative Carthusian. I will also join to the Carthusian Order, I was in postulat in Marnhagues et Latour in France 6 montsh, but I am to old for Order.
I am 42 years old woman.

We have a Gregorian Mass in Stockholm almost every day and also every Sunday in Lund och Gothenburg. In my home town we had it weekly… It is obvious that there are a lot more Catholics here in Sweden!

 

[Inge_Torquemada]

Every day traditional Mass in Stockholm? This is luxus! Becouse in Finnland is only 1 day in month!! Only 1 day and only in Helsinki. For me very long travel,and very expensive, becouse gasolin is expensive! I am unhappy in Finnland! I lived in France, Czech republic, ans in middle Europe is The Holy Mass gregorian possible every day, but not in Finnland.
In Kuopio town in only Novus Ordo 1 time in month!!! Yes, and priest from Poland is very arogant, ultraliberal, modernist! Ecumenism and ecumenism with protestants, but without REAL Catholic faith!!!
I am absollutely unhappy in Finnland.
In my home I have also Vesper, and I pray night office, like Vigilie and Matins like in the Charterhouse. I am hermit, but I will join to the Carthusian Order, but problem is my age, becouse I am 42 years old! I living like hermit about 25 years. And from my young age, I prefere sprituality of Saint Bruno.

 

[CB_Catholic]

We have a Gregorian Mass in Stockholm almost every day and also every Sunday in Lund och Gothenburg. In my home town we had it weekly… It is obvious that there are a lot more Catholics here in Sweden!

The guest on tonight’s The Journey Home on EWTN was Alexander Deriev, an icon painter now living in Sweden. He stated that Sweden was becoming more and more religious, and the Catholic Church is growing rapidly, with a lot of converts from the Lutheran church.

 

[Jotto]

I am from south France, but I living in Finnland. I am traditional Catholic and my way is contemplative. But in Finland is not possible go to Holy Mass gregorian Tridentine rite! Only 1 sunday in Helsinki and this is for me over 400km! I make travel for the Holy Mass over 800km! Yes, this country is horrible and absoluttely Godless! I dont like Finnland.
I am hermit, I living in old house in forest 30km from Kuopio town in middle Finnland.
My spirituality is contemplative Carthusian. I will also join to the Carthusian Order, I was in postulat in Marnhagues et Latour in France 6 montsh, but I am to old for Order.
I am 42 years old woman.

Sorry to hear that your experience of non-Roman congregations in Finland is so negative. While I have not had any direct experience of them, it has been my understanding that the Orthodox Church in Finland is quite healthy.

 

[Jotto]

Jotto;10875986:

I have never heard of such a case. Here it is quite common that pastors want to convert, but it always means that they will have to go through seminary and be ordained all over again. Who was this pastor, and most importantly - your bishop? Is the case public somehow?

If you are Lutheran, you are probably not too concerned. Here the High Church people normally make a rather big deal about having apostolic succession though, even if their ordinations are not considered valid by either the Orthodox or the Catholics. It is the same with the Anglicans, of course.

I suspect that the Bishop of Stockholm (Roman) has simply decided not to get involved in any decision about the original validity of Swedish Church orders and has simply decided it is easier to ignore any historical claim much in the way the Roman Church treats Anglican priests despite of the fact that many of them can point to a succession that comes through the Union of Utrecht.

 

[anjoh66]

The guest on tonight’s The Journey Home on EWTN was Alexander Deriev, an icon painter now living in Sweden. He stated that Sweden was becoming more and more religious, and the Catholic Church is growing rapidly, with a lot of converts from the Lutheran church.

Growing rapidly is probably not the right Word.

Last year in 2012 we had 22 adult baptisms and 87 conversions, even though Sweden is a small country with only approx 9 million inhabitants, i still consider these numbers quite low.

EDIT:
Still the highest number of Catholics is the immigrants and it is by the immigration that the Catholic Church in Sweden grows most, not by converted swedes.

Interesting also is that the Catholic Church in Sweden only counts 103 804 members 2012-12-31, meanwhile 762 persons chosed to leave the Church.

So 762 persons left and only 109 persons joined, that doesnt point to any rapid growth of the Catholic Church in Sweden, IMO.

 

[anjoh66]

Sometimes i also wonder if the Church really wants new converts, i know of someone who has asked for baptism in the Catholic Church for 8 good years but has only been postponed by his vicar and when he asked in other orders they just keep refering back to the hierarchy and that he must go through this vicar who by some reason seems to refuse this.

I mean, 8 years? He now begins to feel that the Catholic Church is not for him and i really dont blame him.

EDIT:

This is probably one of the reasons that only 109 persons joined the Church last year, so maybe it is right that many protestants are seeking conversion but because of the lack of efficiency in the Church when it comes to convertions many of those are just left hanging beside.

 

[Jotto]

Sometimes i also wonder if the Church really wants new converts, i know of someone who has asked for baptism in the Catholic Church for 8 good years but has only been postponed by his vicar and when he asked in other orders they just keep refering back to the hierarchy and that he must go through this vicar who by some reason seems to refuse this.

I mean, 8 years? He now begins to feel that the Catholic Church is not for him and i really dont blame him.

EDIT:

This is probably one of the reasons that only 109 persons joined the Church last year, so maybe it is right that many protestants are seeking conversion but because of the lack of efficiency in the Church when it comes to convertions many of those are just left hanging beside.

How regrettable. I would like to think that friends would step up and complain.

 

[Inge_Torquemada]

In all Finnland is Tridentine Mass possible only in Helsinki, or Turku, sometime Tampere, celebarte priest from FSSP, and only 1 day in all month!
I living in Siilinjärvi, 30km from Kuopio town,and in Kuopio town is possible only 1 day in month diaspora Novus Ordo in Finnish language, and priest is very arogant modernist from Poland I was speaked with this priest about the Tridentine Mass, and he was very arogant, and he dont understand Latin language.
Priests in middle Finnland are from “Neocatecumenal seminary”, and liturgy is horrible, like sacrilege in culture house, not in church. So sad.

 

[fastenatingguy]

My daughter lived outside of Copenhagen for two years. She said there was only one Catholic Church there and she only went a few times. Lots of Lutheran Churches, some empty, some not. She said that the Danes she knew were very secular.

 

[TimothyH]

In all Finnland is Tridentine Mass possible only in Helsinki, or Turku, sometime Tampere, celebarte priest from FSSP, and only 1 day in all month!
I living in Siilinjärvi, 30km from Kuopio town,and in Kuopio town is possible only 1 day in month diaspora Novus Ordo in Finnish language, and priest is very arogant modernist from Poland I was speaked with this priest about the Tridentine Mass, and he was very arogant, and he dont understand Latin language.
Priests in middle Finnland are from “Neocatecumenal seminary”, and liturgy is horrible, like sacrilege in culture house, not in church. So sad.

Maybe the Church is not growing in your area because of attitudes like yours, a refusal to accept what the Church herself accpets as normal and ordinary.

For your information, no priest in the world can ever be forced to celebrate the Extraordinary Form (tridentine) Mass. Anyone who pressures a priest to do so should expect a curt response at best. If you pressured the priest at all, then you have trampled his rights and overstepped your own authority.

-Tim-