Catholicism is pagan

[cathymat]

A person has submitted that Deut 12:29-32 speaks against paganism and clearly shows that the Catholic Church ignores this command from God. I need strong suggestions to refute that. This person is more likely to listen to scripture than Catholic teaching as they already believe the Church to be evil. Help Please!
Thanks

 

[Trishie]

" The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.Deuteronomy 12:29-32

Hi, cathymat,
Perhaps you could explain how your friend has decided that this text proves that the Catholic Church is pagan? That could be a good place to begin…

 

[Trishie]

If it has anything to do with Catholic teaching, then the Church has Christ’s authority.
Peter the first leader of the Church was entrusted with a promise from Jesus that was to last until the end of time. What the Church teaches comes from that biblical authority from Jesus

"When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am”.
Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood
has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,
and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 16:13-19

 

[Trishie]

However that is not the only authority that Jesus gave the apostles in the bible.
Before He ascended, said something that proves that He had not yet shared all truth, that the Holy Spirit would come and lead the Church, the apostles, into the complete truth.
As promised, the Holy Spirit has continued through the Church to teach the truth that that He was still to share, as Jesus promised The Church has continued to do this in obedience to Jesus and the Holy Spirit…

therefore, Deuteronomy 12:32 has no bearing regarding the Catholic Church. To suggest otherwise is to ignore Jesus’ words in the gospels

“I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now. But when the Spirit comes He will lead you to the complete truth…All He tells you will be taken from what is mine.” “You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, and then you will be my witnesses not only in Jerusalem but indeed…to the ends of the earth.” [John 16:8-9, 12-13, 15]

Before His ascension, Jesus said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore, make disciples of all the nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And know that I am with you always, yes even to the end of time.” [Matthew 28:17-20]

 

[Trishie]

Regarding worship…your friend is possibly referring to the fallacious accusation that the Church, that Catholics, worship Mary/the Saints. A persistent misunderstanding! Clearly the reference cannot be regarding human sacrifice. No Catholics don’t do that!

We don’t worship Mary. We do love her, as Jesus loved His mother. We love Him. Why would we not love whom He loved.
From the Cross, his body shattered, his eyes fading, his mouth dry with thirst, He still thought of His mother, and ask John His one present apostle, to welcome her as his own mother, basically to look after her when He was gone, so John too her to his home and cared for her.

**
If your Protestant friend wants scriptural support for why we ask Mary’s intercession,
it is this**

Jesus HIMSELF demonstrated His approval of Mary’s intercession, but accepting it, and responding to it:

In scripture we see the first example of Mary’s intercession
She was in the presence of God Incarnate, the Lord Jesus,
and He not only accepted it,
but he acceded to her request and grant the first recorded miracle of Jesus,
even though He had protested that it was not yet time for signs, miracles.

Therefore we have Jesus own approval of His Mother as intercessor for others in need.
Therefore we ask her prayers, just as you would ask the prayer of another person, except that Mary was so good that the Angel called her blessed. Luke 1
It wasn’t even a matter of life or death,
just possible loss of face of the hosts,
of the wedding feast of Cana.

John 2 Jesus Changes Water Into Wine
" 1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.
7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.
8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”
They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”
11What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him." [John 2:1-11]

**Who can argue with Jesus who responded to His mother’s faith and intercession for others in need?! **

Have I missed anything? If so, in order to put your at rest, and in answer to your friend, then someone else or I will be happy to give relevant scriptures to indicate that the Church is not pagan and that Deut 12:29-32 does not “ignore this command from God.”

May God give you peace, and may God lead your friend to fullness of truth and faith.

With kind wishes, Trishie

 

[cathymat]

" The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.Deuteronomy 12:29-32

Hi, cathymat,
Perhaps you could explain how your friend has decided that this text proves that the Catholic Church is pagan? That could be a good place to begin…

The discussion began with her attack on Christmas and how the Church “took over” the pagan religions whose gods were born on Dec 25. She is extremely anti-Catholic, and only seems to accept direct quotes from scripture. All else is man-made accodring to her line of thinking. She does quote the New Testament some, but relies heavily on the Old Testament.

 

[cathymat]

If it has anything to do with Catholic teaching, then the Church has Christ’s authority.
Peter the first leader of the Church was entrusted with a promise from Jesus that was to last until the end of time. What the Church teaches comes from that biblical authority from Jesus

"When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am”.
Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood
has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

I did cover this point with her, but it fell on deaf ears. She sees Jesus as the rock and would not further debate that point and then brought up the Deut. verses.

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,
and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 16:13-19

However that is not the only authority that Jesus gave the apostles in the bible.
Before He ascended, said something that proves that He had not yet shared all truth, that the Holy Spirit would come and lead the Church, the apostles, into the complete truth.
As promised, the Holy Spirit has continued through the Church to teach the truth that that He was still to share, as Jesus promised The Church has continued to do this in obedience to Jesus and the Holy Spirit…

therefore, Deuteronomy 12:32 has no bearing regarding the Catholic Church. To suggest otherwise is to ignore Jesus’ words in the gospels

“I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now. But when the Spirit comes He will lead you to the complete truth…All He tells you will be taken from what is mine.” “You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, and then you will be my witnesses not only in Jerusalem but indeed…to the ends of the earth.” [John 16:8-9, 12-13, 15]

Before His ascension, Jesus said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore, make disciples of all the nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And know that I am with you always, yes even to the end of time.” [Matthew 28:17-20]

Oh, that one is awesome! Did not cover that area yet. I will try that route and appreciate any other suggestions. This one proclaims to be Messianic, but I think it is closser to Hedonism to be honest. Thanks!

The discussion began with her attack on Christmas and how the Church “took over” the pagan religions whose gods were born on Dec 25. She is extremely anti-Catholic, and only seems to accept direct quotes from scripture. All else is man-made accodring to her line of thinking. She does quote the New Testament some, but relies heavily on the Old Testament.

Also, a lot of discussion about celebrations in general (particularly birthdays). Accoding to her, Catholics celebrate things God has not told them to celebrate thus putting us above God (my feeling is “whatever”, but of course we cannot evangelize with whatever).

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

The discussion began with her attack on Christmas and how the Church “took over” the pagan religions whose gods were born on Dec 25.

Christmas was a pagan holiday (e.g. Yule). So was Easter (from the Ēostre festival). The early Church took over these festivals in the hopes of gaining new converts.

Jesus was not born on December 25th. According to many historians, he is most likely to have been born sometime around Spring.

 

[St_Francis]

Christmas was a pagan holiday (e.g. Yule). So was Easter (from the Ēostre festival). The early Church took over these festivals in the hopes of gaining new converts.

Jesus was not born on December 25th. According to many historians, he is most likely to have been born sometime around Spring.

However, according to many Scipture scholars, He was born right aound 25 December.

bib-arch.org/e-features/christmas.asp

It’s actually very difficult to know when Christ was born, but this article explains that the practice of “sanctifying” pagan festival days did not start until after quite a few Christians had accepted either Dec 25 or Jan 6 as the correct date.

 

[Usagi]

Christmas was a pagan holiday (e.g. Yule). So was Easter (from the Ēostre festival). The early Church took over these festivals in the hopes of gaining new converts.

Jesus was not born on December 25th. According to many historians, he is most likely to have been born sometime around Spring.

Christmas I’ll give you, but Christian Easter is pretty clearly descended from the Jewish Passover. In most languages other than English, the name for the festival is the local word for the Passover. The English name for the day and some of the local customs may have pagan connections, but Christians were celebrating the Resurrection around Passover before it picked up the Easter name.

Usagi

 

[Cat_Herder]

Here is everything you need to demonstrate that Catholicism is biblical. Everything your friend is complaining about is Jewish in origin, not pagan. Easter and Christmas overlap Passover and Hanukkah respectively, the differences being a result of calendar drift.

Your friend needs to think about what she is saying. If the Catholic Church lost the truth around the time of Constantine in the 300s, and no one was a “real Christian” until Luther came along in the 1500s, God failed in His will.
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]
I am sure your friend doesn’t intend to call God a failure but that is what she is doing.

 

[juno24]

I found this article from Biblical Archeology Review magazine to be very interesting. The idea that the Church deliberately chose the winter solstice to celebrate the birth of our Lord was a later idea. The more ancient thought is that Jesus was conceived on (what is now known as) March 25 (which is also the date of his crucifixion), and so his birth 9 months later would be on what is now known as December 25. The thinking was that it was simply God’s providence that the Son should enter the world during the pagan festivals celebrating the sun.
As far as celebrating on the 25th of December (or the 6th of January, as they do in the East) we are not necessarily celebrating Jesus’ birthday. That is, we are not celebrating the day, itself, and we are not necessarily celebrating the fact that person called Jesus was born. We are celebrating the profound theological truth that God the Son chose to take on human flesh. We are celebrating the Incarnation of the Son. Whether there are any of the modern trappings or not-- decorated tree, gifts, big dinner, etc.-- is irrelevant. We would still be celebrating Christmas, the Feast of the Incarnation, because it is not just some regular old birthday party. It is God lowering Himself to become man, so that He might one day raise man up to Himself.

 

[PaulineOsinachi]

Christmas was a pagan holiday (e.g. Yule). So was Easter (from the Ēostre festival).

The solemnity of Easter is called Pascua in Latin which is the original language of the Church and in many parts of the world and is only called Easter in the English speaking part of the world and a few others so I dont quite understand how Pascua took over the Ēostre festival

The early Church took over these festivals in the hopes of gaining new converts.

That the feasts of the Church were fixed to compete with pagan festivals so as to discourage recent converts from falling back and that the Church feasts eventually overtook these pagan festivals is a better way to put it, i think

 

[Protector]

Trishie;8658684] "The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods. See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.Deuteronomy 12:29-32

Hi, cathymat,
Perhaps you could explain how your friend has decided that this text proves that the Catholic Church is pagan? That could be a good place to begin.

Please forgive me for jumping in here; The commentary by Gill on Deut.12:29 refers the reader to Deuteronomy 7:1- 6, which has mention of,

".When the Lord thy God brings you into the land you are entering to possess,… (5)This is what you are to do to them: (The seven nations of the land of Canaan,) “Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, **cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire” **.

An Asherah pole is a sacred tree or pole that stood near Canaanite religious locations to honor the Ugaritic mother-goddess Asherah, consort of El.[1] The relation of the literary references to an asherah and archaeological finds of Judaean pillar-figurines has engendered a literature of debate.[2]

The asherim were also cult objects related to the worship of the fertility Goddess Asherah, the consort of either Ba’al or, as inscriptions from Kuntillet ‘Ajrud and Khirbet el-Qom attest, Yahweh,[3] Wikipedia

That person really needs to dust-off his copy of Dale Carnegie’s, “How to Win Friends and Influence People”

My advice to “cathymat” is to distance yourself from such a person, as even if you succeed in answering their accusations they will not stop attacking the Church.

Protector.

 

[TimothyH]

Deuteronomy 12:31 is a reference to the god Molech.

You shall not worship the LORD, your God, that way, because they offered to their gods every abomination that the LORD detests, even burning their sons and daughters to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)

The god Moelech was a large, hollow statue which was filled with burning coals until the statue glowed red hot. Children were placed into the red-hot arms of the statue, burned alive, their flesh seared, as sacrifice to the god.

Moses’ words in Dueteronomy 12:29-31 has nothing to do with Catholicism, but was an injunction against child sacrifice which was practiced in the nations of the land of Canaan at the time of the Exodus.

http://spiritsrevealed.com/PhotoAlbums/Worship/pic2.jpg

-Tim-

 

[Trishie]

Regarding the birthday issue.
Your friend alluded not only to the Lord’s birthday, but also, more generally, to “Particularly birthdays”

cathymat:

Also, a lot of discussion about celebrations in general (particularly birthdays). Accoding to her, Catholics celebrate things God has not told them to celebrate thus putting us above God (my feeling is “whatever”, but of course we cannot evangelize with whatever).

“Particularly brthdays” I do know of at least one non-Catholic religion that shuns birthdays and Christmas, and perhaps it is to this that your friend refers.

Birthdays of fellow human beings, for instance of family and friends are not spiritual celebrations, have no spiritual ceremony, are an expression of appreciation of the people in our lives. May we not give a special day to tell the people in our lives how special they are, just as fellow humans whom we care about!

The bible doesn’t mention other modern customary celebrations either, so must they be shunned by Christians?
Sports such a baseball, or tennis, or golf, or football are greatly celebrated by those who have interest in them, and are not mentioned in the bible, so are they therefore must be shunned?

Certainly sports are way above birthdays in the degree of celebration that they evidence, and I certainly have not seen mention of these sports in the Bible, nor honored for celebration in the Bible…
The Bible doesn’t tell Americans to celebrate Independence Day, July 4, or Thanksgiving, therefore should Christians not celebrate those?

This might be the kind of answer that comes to my mind in answer to the need to reject every celebration that is not mentioned in the bible, of which birthdays is possible one of the least harmful. No broken bones in birthdays! Cake, nice food, happy company, a few gifts. But though I do know the harm that refusal to celebrate birthdays and Christmas did to my nephews when their mother spent a few years in a particular non-Catholic religion, (is that a desirable outcome, the hurt of children?) I know the harmless joy that birthdays have brought to many others. It’s my birthday at the weekend, and my sister-in-law is having us to dinner, and I’ll have phone-calls from absent interState family, and though it’s not mentioned in the Bible, I do rather expect the Lord won’t be offended. After all I was born into this world on that day, loved into existence by God…cause to celebrate God’s goodness to my loved ones and me.

"Putting ourselves above God" so if we do anything for each other or for ourselves we could be said to be putting ourselves first before God?
**Jesus stated clearly that when we do anything kind for another person we are doing it to HIM **
Jesus answered this question in Matthew 25 verses 31-46:

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ** ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’**

 

[bz5]

The solemnity of Easter is called Pascua in Latin which is the original language of the Church and in many parts of the world and is only called Easter in the English speaking part of the world and a few others so I dont quite understand how Pascua took over the Ēostre festival

That the feasts of the Church were fixed to compete with pagan festivals so as to discourage recent converts from falling back and that the Church feasts eventually overtook these pagan festivals is a better way to put it, i think

I agree. I always think “so what” to these accusations that there are elements in the celebration of Christmas and Easter that were similar to pagan religions - feasting, gift giving, etc…It makes me think of immigrants to America. We demand that to become citizens, they learn something of our history, our Constitution, that they follow our laws. We do not demand that they stop wearing the sari, making the enchiladas, etc…These supposed ‘pagan elements’ are nothing to do with the central point of our Christian celebrations - the Incarnation and Resurrection.

I’d hate to think I need to stop taking baths lest I be accused of being a pagan Roman

 

[Ridgerunner]

Interesting how various protestant sects, whose religion (and very culture) is derived from Catholicism in a thousand ways, condemn their own roots, ignorantly assuming they have somehow come up with something more true simply because they have spun differences out of their own brains.

 

[sulkow82]

cathymat:

Also, a lot of discussion about celebrations in general (particularly birthdays).

Part of the problem, in one way, is the definition of the term “pagan.” It can mean religious worship of nature or polytheism. However, “pagan” can also mean “without religion” as an antonym to “holy” or “consecrated.” Catholicism does not meet either criteria.

Following the second definition, birthdays are pagan in that it is not directly a religious service. However, this does not mean that they contradict the Christian faith. I’ve heard celebrating birthdays grew out of cultures and times where there was a high infant mortality rate. Every time a child lived to see another birthday, they were celebrating the survival of the community.

Here in Hawaii, there is an interesting display on that. It is perfectly acceptable to hold a massive party (rent a hotel ballroom, etc.) for a child’s first birthday. I personally don’t see how celebrating life is condemned in Scripture.

 

[vsedriver]

The discussion began with her attack on Christmas and how the Church “took over” the pagan religions whose gods were born on Dec 25. She is extremely anti-Catholic, and only seems to accept direct quotes from scripture. All else is man-made accodring to her line of thinking. She does quote the New Testament some, but relies heavily on the Old Testament.

Ask her for proof. What gods did the Church replace? Then tell he why we celebrate Christmas in Dec. It’s because we are not celebrating Jesus’ birthDAY but his BIRTH. Since no one knows when he was born his birth is celebrated at that time of year when the day will begin to lengthen because it clearly tells everyone that Jesus, the Light of the World has come!

Pagans had celebrations all year round. There are only so many days in the year. It was inevitable that some feast days and celebrations would overlap.