Catholicism---Man Made---Not in the bible

[Church_Militant]

** Tradition? No way! **

I love those who come along and make statements like this. As if tradition has no place in Christianity. Which is simply not true.

Here’s a really good example. Jude 9: But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

Find this for me in the Old Testament.

Also, Jude 14: It was of these also that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads,
15: to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Find this for me in the Old Testament.

Remember that this is an apostle writing this and we know that this is inspired by the Holy Spirit. If what he is quoting is from God then where is it in the Old Testament?

If it’s from a source other than the Old Testament, then what does the fact that the apostle quoted it into scripture tell you about that source?

Verse 9 is from The Assumption of Moses.
Verses 14 & 15 are from The Book of Enoch.

Both are traditional Jewish writings.

Tradition is bad? Better tell St. Jude.

Ask your average n-C where they can get the names of the two guys who resisted Moses in the Old Testament. St. Paul names them in 2nd Timothy 3:8. “Now as Jannes and Mambres resisted Moses, so these also resist the truth, men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith.”

Just where exactly did the Jewish scholar St. Paul get those names from to include in his Holy Spirit inspired epistle? They’re not named in the canonical books of the OT.

Looks to me like another apostle used Jewish traditional non-canonical sources to teach.
From another Protestant commentator, Matthew Henry:

In one sense we must all be ever learning, that is, growing in knowledge, following on to know the Lord, pressing forward; but these were skeptics, giddy and unstable, who were forward to imbibe every new notion, under pretense of advancement in knowledge, but never came to a right understanding of the truth as it is in Jesus. 3. He foretells the certain stop that should be put to their progress (2Ti_3:8, 2Ti_3:9), comparing them to the Egyptian magicians who withstood Moses, and who are here named, Jannes and Jambres; though the names are not to be met with in the story of the Old Testament, yet they are found in some old Jewish writers.

** In fact, **
Just having a set list of what books are canonical for scripture is a tradition in itself.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Infallibility & How The Apostles Taught the Study of Sacred Tradition. *

I will answer this for you, by reading the bible for myself and letting the Holy Ghost interpret it for me as He does. BTW any church claiming infallability is a false church.*

A rant without any support from the Word of God.

And yet Christ Himself promised that assurance of infallibility to His church when He said. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.Matthew 16.

So then you claim this infallibility for yourself? That is precisely what this statement does, while denying what Our Lord promised to His church and actually attempting to usurp that authority and promise of assurance for yourself. I wouldn’t do that. So then you are telling us that you are never wrong? Yet I have already proved you wrong several times in this discussion alone.

By this statement you have logically condemned yourself.

I love this verse! I don’t suppose that you’ve noticed here that St. Paul does not say to St. Timothy. “Study the Bible”, or “Study the scriptures”, and so based on what this verse says (and the context nowhere changes this…) then sacred Tradition is included in what Paul is telling Timothy to study. In this he would be following the apostles.

Example: (I asked you to look all this up and apparently you dismissed my request, so now I’m going to show you why that was so important.) Look at these verses from the letter of St. Jude, the next to last book in the New Testament. (You do accept Jude as inspired canon of scripture, right?)

Jude Chapter 1:9: But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

Where is that found in the Old Testament? Please show me chapter and verse.

Jude Chapter 1:14: It was of these also that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, 15: to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Where is that in the Old Testament please? Again, I need chapter and verse?

Jude Chapter 1:9: But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”…Jude Chapter 1:14: It was of these also that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, 15: to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

2nd Timothy Chapter 3:8: As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith;

The first 1st is quoting The Assumption of Moses. Not the Old Testament, yet the apostle Jude quotes it as a fact of belief.

The 2nd is quoting The Book of Enoch. Not the Old Testament, yet the apostle Jude quotes it as a fact of belief.

The 3rd is quoting the Book of Jannes and Jambres and not the Old Testament. (Go ahead and look…their names are nowhere found in the OT!), yet here again…St. Paul refers to something as fact that is not stated in the inspired canon. So then… he is clearly telling Timothy to study both scripture and traditional sources, since that is clearly shown here as apostolic practice.

So much for the idea that the apostles taught Sola Scriptura.

If this were actually true then all faithful believers would hold the exact same doctrines and beliefs…but that is not so among n-Cs, though with in the Catholic Church one single authority is acknowledged and there is indeed one authoritative and knowledgeable source of doctrinal interpretation.

Your comments that some Catholics might dissent or disagree does not indict that infallible authority in faith and morals but instead indicts the consciences of those who dissent or oppose those teachings.

In older Bibles where Paul tells Timothy to “Study to show yourself approved” many modern translations say “Be diligent to show yourself approved.”

 

[Church_Militant]

In older Bibles where Paul tells Timothy to “Study to show yourself approved” many modern translations say “Be diligent to show yourself approved.”

Yep, even the Douay-Rheims says,
[BIBLEDRB]2 Timothy 2:15 [/BIBLEDRB]

 

[horselvr]

Lego:
Actually I have heard people in the bible belt say that the bible fell from the sky. When there is 50 of them and only one of me— I use to just smile. now I ask them where THAT is in the bible.

10gr8kids:

Tim 3;15—brillant. Thank you for this reminder.

rfournier103:
She can get a little in your face since she went to Catholic school for so long and I was not able to and had to finally go to public school. So, she always reminds me that she was in Catholic school longer than me—so.

Church Militant: WOW! I’m blown away. I can see right now I am going to do some studying this evening. I’m going to have so much to discuss with her. I wish we could all do a conference call with her. There is such a wealth of information/education on CAF—I just love it.

LB_in_TX: When I saw the notification I thought aw oh–I’m in hot water yet one more time. Thanks

 

[SPH1]

My cousin told me that Catholicism has man made laws, rules, that are not in the Bible.

Doesn’t your cousin realize that Protestantism is a confusing and conflicting mish-mash of man-made religious beliefs, some denominations even named after their man-made founder or closely aligned with their name? Does your cousin see this mish-mash of Protestantism and denominations in the Bible?

 

[livingwordunity]

My cousin told me that Catholicism has man made laws, rules, that are not in the Bible. I asked her like what???

Don’t ask her what ask her who. Ask her who this man was that invented Catholicism? If she is going to make a claim that some man invented Catholicism she needs to say who that man is and then back it up with solid historical evidence. We know that it was Christ, and we have about 2,000 years of history and tradition on our side to back this up. Not everyone has believed that Jesus is who he is, but since the beginning of Church history and for many centuries no one has ever doubted that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ.

I am dumbfounded as she went through 12 yrs of Catholic school and 2 yrs of bible study goes to Mass most Sunday’s.

This is common. Just because someone sits in a classroom for years doesn’t mean they are going to learn anything. Either the Catholic school was Catholic in name alone, or she had no interest and so didn’t absorb any of the instruction on the faith.

Then she said that my sister and she are going to the Lutheran Church tomorrow for a change. I said that it is a sin for a Catholic to receive in another church and then that set off that she doesn’t believe in that either. ~~~~~ sigh

Ask her these questions:

By what authority did Luther throw out 7 books from the Bible?

Where can Luther’s doctrine of Sola Scriptura (Bible Alone) be found in the Bible? If it’s not in the Bible it is self-refuting.

Ask her if she knows that the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth

 

[horselvr]

“I forgot to say earlier that I’m praying for your cousin to come back to the faith.”

Thank you maltmom for praying for her—however I will tell you that my cousin would say she never left the church and that she is a good Catholic and a good kind person and that she knows she is going to heaven—she has no doubt and how terrible it must be for me to not know if I will go to heaven or not yada yada. She has protestant views. I will tell you though that there are others in my family that have all been drinking that same kool-aid.

SPH1:
No, I don’t think she sees the mish mosh at all. As a matter of fact she is very quick to defend protestants and even quicker to smear Catholicism, you know with all their “man made laws and all.”

I finally asked her why she just doesn’t become a protestant and she said because she is Catholic, but she believes in birth control and says that the Church doesn’t believe in purgatory anymore and then there’s that infallible thing. Alrighty then.:confused.

Well, I’m sure she feels I am an over the top Catholic. I tell ya it can make one crazy at a family get together----some of the nonsense that they believe and have discraded along the way… and of course they all have to make mention of it and how it was the Baptist church that helped cousin Mary and not the Catholic Church blah and blah.

My sister has remarried recently and has become a Lutheran because well that’s what her new husband is and she told me at the dinner table with everyone all around, “It’s just like being a Catholic.”

I mean really now----:banghead:

 

[maltmom]

I can see why you are banging your head against the wall. I’m just sitting here shaking my head. I can’t think of anything helpful to say.

 

[horselvr]

Livingwordunity:

Yes, I have asked her if she actually researched Church history and if she realizes that Peter was the first Pope and we have apostolic succession and can actually trace ourselves back to Peter—she just makes a snoring sound.

She will tell you that she is not judgemental and that the CC is, and who does the Church think it is telling people they can’t use birth control and that they must follow what it says----and again where is that in the bible. OHY!. But she is judgemental, can she not see this?

And how a Nun once told her that her Mother is excommunicated because she got a divorce blah, blah. Good Lord that was about 50 some odd years ago.

I hear this all the time how the whole Church is blamed and how terrible Catholicism is because one Nun or one Priest blah and blah:shrug:

I will definately ask her your questions. I know she will have to look up and research the anwers which is a good thing. I always end our conversations with “do not take my word for it, look it up and research it on your own”. This is in hopes she will actually learn something on her own about her own religion.

 

[maltmom]

I will definately ask her your questions. I know she will have to look up and research the anwers which is a good thing. I always end our conversations with “do not take my word for it, look it up and research it on your own”. This is in hopes she will actually learn something on her own about her own religion.

That’s great if she’s looking at Catholic sources. If she’s using Protestant then the truth will be twisted.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Don’t ask her what ask her who. Ask her who this man was that invented Catholicism? If she is going to make a claim that some man invented Catholicism she needs to say who that man is and then back it up with solid historical evidence. We know that it was Christ, and we have about 2,000 years of history and tradition on our side to back this up. Not everyone has believed that Jesus is who he is, but since the beginning of Church history and for many centuries no one has ever doubted that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ.

This is common. Just because someone sits in a classroom for years doesn’t mean they are going to learn anything. Either the Catholic school was Catholic in name alone, or she had no interest and so didn’t absorb any of the instruction on the faith.

Ask her these questions:

By what authority did Luther throw out 7 books from the Bible?

Where can Luther’s doctrine of Sola Scriptura (Bible Alone) be found in the Bible? If it’s not in the Bible it is self-refuting.

Ask her if she knows that the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth

I’ve heard it said that just because someone lives in a garage, that doesn’t make them a car! Just so because someone studys the scripture, doesn’t mean necessarily that they understand or practice it.

 

[Holly3278]

The Catholic Church is far more Biblical than Lutheranism. I can assure you of that. The Catholic Church is thoroughly Biblical, 100% so.

 

[bzkoss236]

Well actually it DOES say we can accept medical care (See Sirach 38:1-15) It says we should seek help from doctors AND help from the Lord. As to warm showers, I haven’t seen that in the Bible but I’ll continue taking them anyhow. I tend to smell pretty bad if I don’t take one.

Figures it is in one of the books I haven’t gotten around to reading yet, ha ha, but thanks for the correction and reference.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Hello!

There are MANY man-made rules in the Catholic Church. When to stand or kneel at Mass is a man-made rule. Most protestant churches also have lots of man-made rules (along with man-made doctrine, which the Catholic Church lacks).

The only type of birth control available in Biblical times was withdrawal. There is only one instance recorded of this practice - a guy named Onan did this (and the practice is thus often called Onanism). God killed him.
And the thing which he did was evil in the sight of the LORD; and He slew him also. Gen 38:3-10]

It does not - and the Church does not say this either. In fact, Canon Law specifically says,
Everyone, however, is permitted to choose the cemetery of burial unless prohibited by law. Canon 1180 §2]

It doesn’t. And it couldn’t. There were no “other churches” giving out Communion in Biblical days, so you’ll understand why the Bible has nothing to say about the subject. There was only the Catholic Church. Protestantism was not invented until the Sixteenth Century.

Oh, lots and lots of places. I refer you to the collection of Catholic Answers tracts on the subject - you will find dozens of Biblical references.

As for the authority of the Church, Christ clear as day said:

[bibledrb]luke 10:16[/bibledrb]

Christ associated the Bishops with Himself and so when we oppose the teaching authority of the Church (the Body of Christ) we oppose Christ Himself. When someone says I follow a man made Church I admit I do since Christ is truly man and truly divine.

I follow the God-Man made Church.

 

[englishredrose]

The Catholic Church is far more Biblical than Lutheranism. I can assure you of that. The Catholic Church is thoroughly Biblical, 100% so.

and you have been a Lutheran for the past 20 years to know that Catholicism is more Biblical than Lutheranism.Or are you blindly quoting own believe… which is fair enough but… Its amazing how suddenly know when its actually all Christian anyway and we need to be striving for unity rather than division or disunity and haven’t actually presented any evidence in your post that the Catholic Church is more Biblical than the Lutheran Church by comparing and contrasting the two in sound discussion…

 

[horselvr]

I am so glad my cousin challenged me on several issues she is having with the Catholic Church teachings. I believe this thread will serve to answer at least her questions on one issue possibly two.

While I admit that having a Catholic putting the Church down makes me want to just lose it :nunchuk: much more so than having a protestant condeming the Church, both have driven me to study my faith and to research what they question thereby educating myself.
For this I am grateful.

I have spent the wee hours of last evening and a good portion of today just lookin up contraception and birth control and why the CC is staunce and steadfast in her beliefs. Well, it has been quite a journey and I have only scrapped the surface but what a scrapping I have unearthed for myself. There seems to be at least 30ish bible verses relating to contraception, I never knew that. www.scripturecatholic.com/contraception.

I also discovered that the protestants believed in and followed the Catholic Church teachings on birth control and contraception until around mid 1920’s or so. Seems prior to that Martin Luther decided to abandon celibacy, married and had a slew of kids and the rest of the clergy (protestant) followed suit. Later because of economics and having a lot of children fell out of favor in society, protestants turned away from God’s teachings and turned to contraception. Unfortunately, so have some Catholics.

The point here though for me is the beauty of the Catholic Church and it’s infallible teachings which it has held steadfast to and have protected for all these years.

So, between what you all have added to this thread plus what I have discovered there is a lot here for my cousin to digest. I am hoping that she will abandon the silly notice of not believing in infallibility of the Pope protecting Church teachings and morality.

Maybe through all this she might realize that it is not the Catholic Church that is man-made.

 

[bzkoss236]

Yeah, I don’t think many people realize how infallible teaching works and don’t realize how it protects against mistakes.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Yeah, I don’t think many people realize how infallible teaching works and don’t realize how it protects against mistakes.

What is really amazing is how the Church survived even through several bad Popes during the Middle Ages! If it were simply a human organization it should have gone “belly up” centuries ago.

 

[bzkoss236]

What is really amazing is how the Church survived even through several bad Popes during the Middle Ages! If it were simply a human organization it should have gone “belly up” centuries ago.

Exactly

 

[tabycat]

Well actually it DOES say we can accept medical care (See Sirach 38:1-15) It says we should seek help from doctors AND help from the Lord. As to warm showers, I haven’t seen that in the Bible but I’ll continue taking them anyhow. I tend to smell pretty bad if I don’t take one.

To say any Christian, if ill, should not get medical care have forgoten that Luke (Book of Luke and Acts) was a doctor.