Catholicism---Man Made---Not in the bible

[horselvr]

My cousin told me that Catholicism has man made laws, rules, that are not in the Bible. I asked her like what??? I told her that we also go by tradition. I am dumbfounded as she went through 12 yrs of Catholic school and 2 yrs of bible study goes to Mass most Sunday’s. The phone conversation was mind boggling. To my mind she thinks/believes like a protestant. She said she loves Catholicism and I replied that she only loves the parts she agrees with. I know I shouldn’t have said that but-----if it walks like a duck kind of thing.

This whole conversation of the church having man made rules started because she told me that she wants to be cremated and then have her ashes split up amongst her children and spread wherever. I explained that the ashes I believe are suppose to be buried in consecrated ground—well, that set the whole thing off.

So she believes the church made up their own rules because she said no where in the bible does it say we can’t use birth control or that ashes are to be buried in consecrated ground?

Then she said that my sister and she are going to the Lutheran Church tomorrow for a change. I said that it is a sin for a Catholic to receive in another church and then that set off that she doesn’t believe in that either. ~~~~~ sigh ~~~~~~.

So, she added that to her other questions:
Where does it say we can’t use birth control
Where does it say we have to be buried in consecrated ground.
Where does it say we can’t receive communion in another church.
Where does it say anything about the Popes infallibility concerning church beliefs and morals.

Does anyone know where I can find the verses to her questions straight from the Bible??
She said she wants verses. Or is there a good video that teaches all this?

I appreciate any and all assistance as she has given me a whopping headache.

 

[sedonaman]

My cousin told me that Catholicism has man made laws, rules, that are not in the Bible. …

So, she added that to her other questions:
Where does it say we can’t use birth control
Where does it say we have to be buried in consecrated ground.
Where does it say we can’t receive communion in another church.
Where does it say anything about the Popes infallibility concerning church beliefs and morals.

Does anyone know where I can find the verses to her questions straight from the Bible??
She said she wants verses. Or is there a good video that teaches all this?
…

I don’t know, but you might ask her which Bible she is using. If she tells you, then ask her where in it does it specify which books constitute a valid Bible. If she can’t answer that, then explain to her that obviously not everything is in the Bible.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Hello!

There are MANY man-made rules in the Catholic Church. When to stand or kneel at Mass is a man-made rule. Most protestant churches also have lots of man-made rules (along with man-made doctrine, which the Catholic Church lacks).

Where does it say we can’t use birth control

The only type of birth control available in Biblical times was withdrawal. There is only one instance recorded of this practice - a guy named Onan did this (and the practice is thus often called Onanism). God killed him.
And the thing which he did was evil in the sight of the LORD; and He slew him also. Gen 38:3-10]

Where does it say we have to be buried in consecrated ground.

It does not - and the Church does not say this either. In fact, Canon Law specifically says,
Everyone, however, is permitted to choose the cemetery of burial unless prohibited by law. Canon 1180 §2]

Where does it say we can’t receive communion in another church.

It doesn’t. And it couldn’t. There were no “other churches” giving out Communion in Biblical days, so you’ll understand why the Bible has nothing to say about the subject. There was only the Catholic Church. Protestantism was not invented until the Sixteenth Century.

Where does it say anything about the Popes infallibility concerning church beliefs and morals.

Oh, lots and lots of places. I refer you to the collection of Catholic Answers tracts on the subject - you will find dozens of Biblical references.

 

[maltmom]

Too many people want everything their way. The Church has rules for a reason.

 

[LB_in_TX]

Note that the Catholic (Universal) Church was instituted by Christ.

We know because of the Promises of Perpetuality made by Truth Himself (John 14:6), Jesus Christ.

We know that He founded One Church only, as He stated in Matthew 16:18.
We know because He promised His Church would be defended from within and from without.
“And the gates of hell will NOT prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:17-19

We know because He promised to be with His Church until the end of the world, in Matthew 28:20.
We know because He promised He would not leave us orphans, in John 14:18.
We know because He promised the Spirit of Truth would dwell with it forever, in John 14:16.
We know because Saint Paul promised the Church will be with us forever." Ephesians 3:21

The Magisterium or Teaching Authority of the Church
by Fr. William G. Most

By the Magisterium we mean the teaching office of the Church. It consists of the Pope and Bishops. Christ promised to protect the teaching of the Church : “He who hears you, hears me; he who rejects your rejects me, he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me” (Luke 10. 16). Now of course the promise of Christ cannot fail: hence when the Church presents some doctrine as definitive or final, it comes under this protection, it cannot be in error; in other words, it is infallible. This is true even if the Church does not use the solemn ceremony of definition. The day to day teaching of the Church throughout the world, when the Bishops are in union with each other and with the Pope, and present something as definitive, this is infallible. (Vatican II, Lumen gentium # 25). It was precisely by the use of that authority that Vatican I was able to define that the Pope alone, when speaking as such and making things definitive, is also infallible. Of course this infallibility covers also teaching on what morality requires, for that is needed for salvation.

A “theologian” who would claim he needs to be able to ignore the Magisterium in order to find the truth is strangely perverse: the teaching of the Magisterium is the prime, God-given means of finding the truth. Nor could he claim academic freedom lets him contradict the Church. In any field of knowledge, academic freedom belongs only to a properly qualified professor teaching in his own field. But one is not properly qualified if he does not use the correct method of working in his field, e.g., a science professor who would want to go back to medieval methods would be laughed off campus, not protected. Now in Catholic theology , the correct method is to study the sources of revelation, but then give the final word to the Church. He who does not follow that method is not a qualified Catholic theologian. Vatican II taught (Dei Verbum # 10): “The task of authoritatively interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on [Scripture or Tradition], has been entrusted exclusively to the living Magisterium of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.”

 

[bzkoss236]

The Bible also doesn’t say we can accept medical care or take warm showers. Just because something isn’t explicitly in the Bible doesn’t mean that it instantly becomes “unbiblical”.

I wonder if she’s been interacting with any Protestants, or looking into their theology online. There have been a few of my ex-Catholic friends who have fallen prey to the anti-Catholic Protestants. Anyways, good luck on getting to her to see clearly, it will take lots of prayer.

 

[TeenageConvert]

My cousin told me that Catholicism has man made laws, rules, that are not in the Bible. I asked her like what??? I told her that we also go by tradition. I am dumbfounded as she went through 12 yrs of Catholic school and 2 yrs of bible study goes to Mass most Sunday’s. The phone conversation was mind boggling. To my mind she thinks/believes like a protestant. She said she loves Catholicism and I replied that she only loves the parts she agrees with. I know I shouldn’t have said that but-----if it walks like a duck kind of thing.

This whole conversation of the church having man made rules started because she told me that she wants to be cremated and then have her ashes split up amongst her children and spread wherever. I explained that the ashes I believe are suppose to be buried in consecrated ground—well, that set the whole thing off.

So she believes the church made up their own rules because she said no where in the bible does it say we can’t use birth control or that ashes are to be buried in consecrated ground?

Then she said that my sister and she are going to the Lutheran Church tomorrow for a change. I said that it is a sin for a Catholic to receive in another church and then that set off that she doesn’t believe in that either. ~~~~~ sigh ~~~~~~.

So, she added that to her other questions:
Where does it say we can’t use birth control
Where does it say we have to be buried in consecrated ground.
Where does it say we can’t receive communion in another church.
Where does it say anything about the Popes infallibility concerning church beliefs and morals.

Does anyone know where I can find the verses to her questions straight from the Bible??
She said she wants verses. Or is there a good video that teaches all this?

I appreciate any and all assistance as she has given me a whopping headache.

She has an incorrect understanding of what exactly the Bible is. It isn’t the sole authority for the Church nor for the laity. That would be really stupid considering the Church existed before the Bible did. The Bible doesn’t say anything about things that weren’t an issue at the time it was written. That’s why we have a living Magestirium(sp?) To guide us. The Bible even says we should cling to the oral traditions handed to us from the apostles (ie the Bishops and Popes)

 

[horselvr]

sedonaman: I have to tell you that your reply put a smile on my face especially because you are spot on as the 2 yr bible study was a protestant study program using the kjv taught by a non-denom preacher and his assistant.

She also explained to me that she is sure she is going to heaven because she is a good person. I changed that subject before she had time to add because “she is saved”.

DavidFilmer: My headache is now gone. I think it had something to do with throwing my head back and laughing long and hard after reading your reply concerning communion. Of course it wouldn’t be in the bible. Slapping myself on the forehead and wishing I had a V8. Sometimes I just have to shake my head at myself.

Thank you both so much. I am off to do some studying on the Catholic Answers tracts. I will more than likely order some and send them to her and keep some for me too.
Thanks again.

ps. Thanks also for the correction concerning burial.

 

[po18guy]

Have her read Acts 15. Was the first doctrine on circumcision man-made? It’s in the bible! Councils are still held in that manner, and have continued in an unbroken line up to today. Might ask her, which man (her pastor) made up this misinformation she received via using his fallible interpretation of the bible.

Or, give her a copy of Catholicism for Dummies and let her read at her own pace.

 

[LegoGE1947]

The Bible also doesn’t say we can accept medical care or take warm showers. Just because something isn’t explicitly in the Bible doesn’t mean that it instantly becomes “unbiblical”.

I wonder if she’s been interacting with any Protestants, or looking into their theology online. There have been a few of my ex-Catholic friends who have fallen prey to the anti-Catholic Protestants. Anyways, good luck on getting to her to see clearly, it will take lots of prayer.

Well actually it DOES say we can accept medical care (See Sirach 38:1-15) It says we should seek help from doctors AND help from the Lord. As to warm showers, I haven’t seen that in the Bible but I’ll continue taking them anyhow. I tend to smell pretty bad if I don’t take one.

 

[maltmom]

I forgot to say earlier that I’m praying for your cousin to come back to the faith.

 

[rfournier103]

Ask your cousin how Christians knew what the rules were before the Bible was written/compiled?

Ask her if the Bible was ready-made the day after Christ was crucified?

Ask her where the Bible came from?

I, for one would love to hear her answers, since she had 12 years of Catholic school and Bible study as well.

 

[horselvr]

maltmom:
Yes you are correct. I love my cousin but she is a picker and a chooser when it comes to Catholicism. This does worry me for her and so I do pray for her as she is being misguided.

teenageconvert:
I asked her what everyone did prior to the Catholic church compiling the bible. I also touched on tradition which I think only confused her. Thank you for the response and putting things in order for me, things I need to re-ask her.

bzkoss236:
You actually have hit the nail on the head. She has many protestant friends (truely lovely people) and I think she is clouded by some of this. She also goes to services with them and I think she is receiving communion there sometimes because when I said not to receive their wafer and juice she got huffy.

LB_in_TX:
Thanks you for the reply. There is a lot there for her (me too) to chew on. This is probably the third or fourth time she and I have had these conversations about Catholicisim. I don’t know what it is going to take. I have referred her to the C of the CC and Cannon Law on things but still she persists. It’s ok though because it forces me to study up and sometimes to just refresh myself on the teachings of the CC.

I do worry about her receiving communion outside of the Church and I always tell her I am praying for her soul.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Ask your cousin how Christians knew what the rules were before the Bible was written/compiled?

Ask her if the Bible was ready-made the day after Christ was crucified?

Ask her where the Bible came from?

I, for one would love to hear her answers, since she had 12 years of Catholic school and Bible study as well.

It appears some people think that God just dropped the Bible, ready made, over the bannister of heaven. Never occurs to them that human beings were involved in writing the Bible or deciding what writings did or did not belong in the Bible. Also were the Ten Commandments man-made? The book of Exodus sure doesn’t say so. It says that they were written on tablets by the finger of God. And that is just one example of rules that were not man-made.

 

[10gr8kids]

The Bible isn’t the pillar and foundation of truth, the Church is. That’s what the Bible says in 1 Timothy 3:15.

 

[LegoGE1947]

The Bible isn’t the pillar and foundation of truth, the Church is. That’s what the Bible says in 1 Timothy 3:15.

After all, the Church existed long before the Bible as we know it came along.

 

[po18guy]

From the Prologue to Luke (Luke 1:1-4), we see that “Theophilus” learned nothing - zip, zero, nada, from Luke’s Gospel. Luke wrote his Gospel only to confirm the oral Apostolic teaching that Theophilus had already received. And, this is the exact mechanism the Church uses to this day - plus the Church alone is guided by the Holy Spirit (teaching authority, aka the magisterium) so as to avoid error.

 

[horselvr]

po18guy: I was hoping you would chime in on this as I learned a lot chasing you and Elvisman all around the forums. Whatever happened to him??

Anyway, yes I am planning on getting Catholicism for Dummies (I’m reading it first) and sending it to her. I will explain the title to her though as she might get offended.

I have to run outside and feed the horses before it rains. I’ll come right back, God willing and the creek don’t rise (as my FIL use to say) and read/answer the rest of the posts.

I am so very thankful for all of you that are taking the time to help me out.

 

[LegoGE1947]

po18guy: I was hoping you would chime in on this as I learned a lot chasing you and Elvisman all around the forums. Whatever happened to him??

Anyway, yes I am planning on getting Catholicism for Dummies (I’m reading it first) and sending it to her. I will explain the title to her though as she might get offended.

I have to run outside and feed the horses before it rains. I’ll come right back, God willing and the creek don’t rise (as my FIL use to say) and read/answer the rest of the posts.

I am so very thankful for all of you that are taking the time to help me out.

The “For Dummies” series of books covers just about any subject you can imagine, not just catholicism. I found some of the “For Dummies” books helpful when I was studying Information Technology at an on-line school a couple years ago.

 

[Church_Militant]

Infallibility & How The Apostles Taught the Study of Sacred Tradition.

Originally Asserted by a Non-Catholic:
Any church arrogant enough to claim infallibility is elevating it’s self above God and is blasphemy! There are other “churches” that claim to be infallible, how shall I know which one is lying and which one is telling the truth?

I will answer this for you, by reading the bible for myself and letting the Holy Ghost interpret it for me as He does. BTW any church claiming infallability is a false church.*

A rant without any support from the Word of God.

And yet Christ Himself promised that assurance of infallibility to His church when He said. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.Matthew 16.

So then you claim this infallibility for yourself? That is precisely what this statement does, while denying what Our Lord promised to His church and actually attempting to usurp that authority and promise of assurance for yourself. I wouldn’t do that. So then you are telling us that you are never wrong? Yet I have already proved you wrong several times in this discussion alone.

By this statement you have logically condemned yourself.

Originally Asserted by non-Catholic

 *2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.*

I love this verse! I don’t suppose that you’ve noticed here that St. Paul does not say to St. Timothy. “Study the Bible”, or “Study the scriptures”, and so based on what this verse says (and the context nowhere changes this…) then sacred Tradition is included in what Paul is telling Timothy to study. In this he would be following the apostles.

Example: (I asked you to look all this up and apparently you dismissed my request, so now I’m going to show you why that was so important.) Look at these verses from the letter of St. Jude, the next to last book in the New Testament. (You do accept Jude as inspired canon of scripture, right?)

Jude Chapter 1:9: But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

Where is that found in the Old Testament? Please show me chapter and verse.

Jude Chapter 1:14: It was of these also that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, 15: to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Where is that in the Old Testament please? Again, I need chapter and verse?

Jude Chapter 1:9: But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”…Jude Chapter 1:14: It was of these also that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, 15: to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

2nd Timothy Chapter 3:8: As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith;

The first 1st is quoting The Assumption of Moses. Not the Old Testament, yet the apostle Jude quotes it as a fact of belief.

The 2nd is quoting The Book of Enoch. Not the Old Testament, yet the apostle Jude quotes it as a fact of belief.

The 3rd is quoting the Book of Jannes and Jambres and not the Old Testament. (Go ahead and look…their names are nowhere found in the OT!), yet here again…St. Paul refers to something as fact that is not stated in the inspired canon. So then… he is clearly telling Timothy to study both scripture and traditional sources, since that is clearly shown here as apostolic practice.

So much for the idea that the apostles taught Sola Scriptura.

Originally Asserted by non-Catholic

 *You  see it all the time. People don't agree on everything, even  within any  church, including your catholic church. At the same time,  if you go to  the same source of truth (the bible) and study it though  the Holy  Spirit, you can understand no matter who you are.*

If this were actually true then all faithful believers would hold the exact same doctrines and beliefs…but that is not so among n-Cs, though with in the Catholic Church one single authority is acknowledged and there is indeed one authoritative and knowledgeable source of doctrinal interpretation.

Your comments that some Catholics might dissent or disagree does not indict that infallible authority in faith and morals but instead indicts the consciences of those who dissent or oppose those teachings.