Catholicism or Orthodoxy?

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4. Papal Infallibilty and Papal Supremecy
From the Church History I read it seems to me that, especially in the first millenium, the Pope wasn’t an ‘ecclesiastical dictator’ (excuse me for the term) but that the Church was governed with councils, local as well as Ecumenical ones. The Fifth Ecumenical Council was even held in opposition to the Pope and a former pope, the heretic Honorius, was even anathemised, because he confessed, in an official letter concerning faith and morals, to the Patriarch of Constantinople, the monothelite heresy. The second Ecumenical council was presided by St. Meletius of Antioch, a bishop in schism from Rome at the time. In a huge fight between St. Cyprian of Carthage and the Pope, St. Cyprian called in the East and won the fight and the list goes on and on.

And if there is Papal Infallibilty, why then was there the need to hold the 7 Ecumenical Councils if an ex cathedra pronouncement of the Pope would have sufficed? Why the 4th Ecumenical Council if the Tome of Leo was already written years earlier? It seems to me that both Papal Supremecy and Infallibilty or Universal Jurisdiction were never universally accepted in the in the pre-schism Church, but please, correct me if I’m wrong, for this are only some of my impressions.
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8984376
 
"Yes, schism and heresy are nasty things "
Actually I was looking at the bickering focused on the man rather than the trust/faith in Christ…The gospel is still getting preached and men our daily committing their lives to Christ and will be till the time of the gentiles is complete…Here is the sad thing…I have been in this world for almost 62 years(42 years in Christ) and never had one Catholic or Orthodox christian want to talk to me about Christ and His plan of salvation…It was always evangelical christians and jw"s. We are to be ready in season and out to share that message of hope that lies within us…Sorry, off topic
 
Credo_ergo_sum said:
But then again, what if there would sit another Honorius on the Papal Throne openly confessing monothelitism? Just curious.
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I think that’s an excellent question and there were whole threads dedicated solely to Pope Honorius here at CAF.

I hope someone more educated than myself will chime in.

I’ve read somewhere that Pope Honorius did not teach monothelitism, but failed to crack down on those who did - or something like that. Unfortunately I can’t locate that article, that’s why I hope someone else will pick up this point.
 
“We find that these documents [including those of Honorius] are quite foreign to the apostolic dogmas, to the declarations of the holy Councils, and to all the accepted Fathers, and that they follow the false teachings of the heretics…there shall be expelled from the holy Church of God and anathematized Honorius who was some time Pope of Old Rome, because of what we found written by him to Sergius, that in all respects he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrines…To Honorius, the heretic, anathema!… [The devil] has actively employed them [including Honorius]…we slew them [including Honorius] with anathema, as lapsed from the faith and as sinners, in the morning outside the camp of the tabernacle of God.”
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This is what the 6th Ecumenical Council had to say about it. Don’t know however if a letter to another patriarch counts as an ex cathedra pronouncement. But if I were to accept Catholicism, which has a good chance of happening, I think I need to be able to fully affirm its dogma’s.
 
I’m just going to answer the headings here.
1. Liturgical innovations
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This shouldn’t be an issue. Even the Orthodox Divine Liturgy has changed over the years. If you make an issue out of this, or base your decision around it, your faith may end up being very shaky, especially as you learn about these innovations.
2. Liberalism
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While it may be true that there are more prominent Liberal Catholics than Liberal Orthodox, they do still exist. Orthodoxy probably allows for more liberalism than Catholicism given its dislike of dogma.
  1. The Filioque.
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I have many issues with the filioque, that I’m not going to get into here. Needless to say it, and the logical extensions of it, played a role in my personal choice of Orthodoxy.
4. Papal Infallibilty and Papal Supremecy
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I agree with everything you wrote.
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5. Development of Doctrine and Scholasticism.**
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There has been some development of doctrine in the East, but the tendency is to shy away from it. Dogma should only be pronounced in the face of heresy, etc.
Reason can certainly play a part in the faith, but I agree, applying it to the Holy Mysteries just can’t work.
6. The replacement of the Septuagint with the Hebrew OT since St. Jerome
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This was another (though minor) issue I had. While the texts are largely the same (baring the repression of certain books which logically came about through this), the abandonment of the traditional books for the versions of, what was by the time a different religion, troubles me.
Orthodox Church:
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1. Divided
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While it is true that there are divisions on certain issues, these issues do not detract from the faith itself. The two examples you mentioned are examples of divisions that tend to be between individuals, not churches, and we are free to take the position which we want, making sure to stay away from heresy (such as being so Ecumenical that one wanders into the sphere of latitudalism).
The Orthodox Church certainly is Catholic, containing the whole of the faith.
2. Nationalism, phyletism etc.
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I absolutely agree with you on this. For the most part the Orthodox Church recognizes this is a problem. There are efforts to solve it - though it is a big problem and these efforts may take some time to come to fruition.
  1. Loss of the Pope.
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And yet we’ve been able to maintain the faith without the Bishop of Rome. It is a sad loss, but not a mortal loss.
 
Nine_Two said:
I’m just going to answer the headings here.
This shouldn’t be an issue. Even the Orthodox Divine Liturgy has changed over the years. If you make an issue out of this, or base your decision around it, your faith may end up being very shaky, especially as you learn about these innovations.
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Let me formulate it differently: I don’t think guitar music in the liturgy, or football Mass like was done here a few years ago, are very appropriate.

Somewhere I wrote that there is a Latin Vatican II Mass where I live, and the only problem I have with that one is basically the filioque which is sung during the Credo III 😉
 
Credo_ergo_sum said:
I think it is because I love Byzantine/Gregorian/Old Roman chant so much and would love to preserve it against contemporary music 😉
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I’ve heard that…I can’t imagine that is what Paul and Silas singing that when they were
imprisoned…Sorry to derail you. I just enjoy your open, honest heartfelt conversation…
We can get so caught up in the intricacies when out faith in Christ is so loving and
without bounds…
 
SmallCcatholic said:
I’ve heard that…I can’t imagine that is what Paul and Silas singing that when they were
imprisoned…Sorry to derail you. I just enjoy your open, honest heartfelt conversation…
We can get so caught up in the intricacies when out faith in Christ is so loving and
without bounds…
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Well, especially Old Roman and Byzantine chant has very strong connections to Jewish Temple chants and Helleno-Roman chanting, so I think he could have sang something similiar, but this really is something for another thread :rolleyes:
 
Jacob50 said:
4. Papal Infallibilty and Papal Supremecy
From the Church History I read it seems to me that, especially in the first millenium, the Pope wasn’t an ‘ecclesiastical dictator’ (excuse me for the term) but that the Church was governed with councils, local as well as Ecumenical ones.
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Methinks you place the cart before the horse.

The Church Militant, with its Sees and Apostolic Thrones, was organized as such by Saint Peter. Tradition attributes to him the organization of the Church into the principal Sees. One for Europe, one for Asia and one for Africa. It was Saint Peter who commissioned the various Sees, so to speak. From him they derive their authority and actuality.
As a Roman Catholic, I deny outright the suggestion that Saint Peter was not always in practice the Bishop of the Universal Church. He always spoke for the Apostolic College and indeed even for the whole Church. He is always listed first among the Apostles. He alone received peculiar attention - like a close protege - of Our Lord, and in this a discerning person can see the root of his being Christ’s Vicar. The Scriptures attest in abundance to the Papacy, which itself is in keeping with many prefigurements in the Old Testament and the ancient Israelite church. Whether its the Patriarchs and their clear, patriarchal authority, or in the congregation of Israel established under Moses, there was always a single leader and head, at least in religion. The monarchical nature of Christ’s religion is evident in His own Life. The Holy Family is also Royalty. Christ is truly a King, even the King of kings.
 
Credo_ergo_sum said:
Instruments as a whole actually, maybe with the exception of an organ to aid the choir.
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I can certainly understand your frustration. I, too, have seen many abuses when it comes to instruments in worship. And much of what passes itself off as “contemporary” is not necessarily good corporate worship material, let alone is it “contemporary” (more like 80s and 90s music).

However, there are good uses of instruments. And some of them are not only good, but what is mandated. If memory serves me right, the Carmelites have a tradition of using the guitar and some simple drums in worship. (Needs to check up on that)

Point being, while I certainly understand your concern, I would not necessarily make this into a huge concern. My :twocents:, anyways.
 
1AugustSon7 said:
The Church Militant, with its Sees and Apostolic Thrones, was organized as such by Saint Peter. Tradition attributes to him the organization of the Church into the principal Sees. One for Europe, one for Asia and one for Africa. It was Saint Peter who commissioned the various Sees, so to speak. From him they derive their authority and actuality.
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Except that wasn’t the organization. Large parts of Africa (including the Province of Africa itself) were under Rome. Similarly Sees would grow up throughout Europe.
 
Nine_Two said:
Except that wasn’t the organization. Large parts of Africa (including the Province of Africa itself) were under Rome. Similarly Sees would grow up throughout Europe.
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Plus, Jerusalem is, like Antioch, in Asia.
 
Credo_ergo_sum said:
Plus, Jerusalem is, like Antioch, in Asia.
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Jerusalem, surprisingly enough, wasn’t one of the three original sees. 😉

Even today it doesn’t have much territory, compared to the other four Roman sees of its day which were massive.
 
Credo ergo sum,

Your post instantly took my thoughts to King David who worshipped God using the popular musical instruments of his day and included some string instruments like the harp and lyre.

The Catholic Church in all its Rites uses a huge variety of musical talent and traditions - some use chant exclusively, some use singing either alone or accompanied with one or more musical instruments including, but not limited to: organs, pianos, flutes, maracas, harps, guitars, drums and bells. The intent of the chant/song/music in the Mass is to lift our hearts and minds in the worship and praise of the Almighty Triune God.

Because the Catholic Church is so diverse, there is generally at least one Mass that has the type of chant/song/music that will touch each person’s heart most deeply, but with that said, the Mass isn’t there to entertain us - no one should allow theirselves to be distracted away from the purpose of the Mass just because the chant/song/music isn’t to their particular taste.

It should also be noted that parishes can only use the people who are willing to give their time to contribute to the worship/praise of God during Mass - God loves and blesses their efforts even if some who have the dedication don’t have a level of talent that would be judged so well on America’s Got Talent or American Idol. We don’t attend Church to judge the musical talent or lack there of, but we attend Mass to thank and worship the One True God!

Blessings,
ComeHome2Rome
Credo_ergo_sum said:
Roman Catholicism:

1. Liturgical innovations

Their new rite, the one from the '60’s, doesn’t really stand in liturgical tradition and some I’ve seen are very modern and do not include traditional hymns or Gregorian Chants. However, the ‘new’ liturgy with gregorian chants and being done in Latin is ten minutes on the bike away. But somehow the fact that it is sometimes done so ‘modern’ (I heard sometimes even with guitar music :eek:) in the CC disturbs me.
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Nine_Two said:
Jerusalem, surprisingly enough, wasn’t one of the three original sees. 😉

Even today it doesn’t have much territory, compared to the other four Roman sees of its day which were massive.
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It sure will play a big part in His return and the unfulfilled prophecy before it…
 
Nine_Two said:
Except that wasn’t the organization. Large parts of Africa (including the Province of Africa itself) were under Rome. Similarly Sees would grow up throughout Europe.
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I fail to see the reason for your objection, “Except…”

You can’t possibly mean that the Church had no organization or that the depiction I gave isn’t of the most ancient antiquity we know of for describing the Church Militant as an organization. Clearly that was the organization, with the minor differences from the general picture, so to speak, you mentioned.

You know Tradition recognized three Sees as bearing special significance from the earliest times: Rome, Antioch and Alexandria, with others growing up later.
 
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