Catholicism verses Islam differences and similarities

[planten]

**

Excellent post by Umerazad (post #14). Every word is true. The Quran told us not to ill any innocent person. It says if any one kills an innocent person that means he has killed the whole mankind.
About the love of neighbors, It is upto forty houses called neighbors. The prophet was feeling that there was so much stress on the love of the neighbor that Allah may reveal some verse such as to make the neighbor an inheritor in the property…

There is no verse abrogated in the Quran, not even one verse. If any one thinks otherwise then he/she should present the verses abrogated and the abrogating verse.

About fighting or killing, it is only those who are against peace and justice and they create disturbance in the land and they oppress the believers and drive the believers out of their homes, they are rascals. It is necessary to fight against such persons only. They are described as kafirs i.e. hostile disbelievers. Not every non-muslim (non-believer) is a kafir. Christians are beleivers. They believe in God and the prophets and the books. They are not kaafirs unless they pick up a fight against Islam.

The Catholics are faithful or meaning is faithful. They are believers and they love God. There is much similarity between the catholics ( and the original teachings of Jesus) and Islam. All prophets brought the same religion, that is “Peace”. Every nation had a prophet. The message was from the One God and the message was almost same except some very slight difference… So I believe that the Catholics and Muslims are very close to each other.**

 

[planten]

**sam777, please do not think that the revelation was brought to Muhammad by the Satan. That will be the end of your religion too. Who told any of you that Mary was filled by the holy ghost or made pregnant through the holy spirit? Nobody. It is because of the Quran that we Muslims believe that she was pregnant by pious means. Othewise all was illegal birth perhaps.

If you do not believe in Gabriel then i will not believe that Joseph the carpentor was visited by the angel. Who told Joseph that Mary was made pregnanat by holy means? May be he was visited by the Satan. Similarly, the Elizabeth talking to Mary could all be false. What would you like to do? Would you please remain in some controlled area of decency? You cannot have your bread greased on both sides.**

 

[R_not]

**

Excellent post by Umerazad (post #14). Every word is true. The Quran told us not to ill any innocent person. It says if any one kills an innocent person that means he has killed the whole mankind.
About the love of neighbors, It is upto forty houses called neighbors. The prophet was feeling that there was so much stress on the love of the neighbor that Allah may reveal some verse such as to make the neighbor an inheritor in the property…

There is no verse abrogated in the Quran, not even one verse. If any one thinks otherwise then he/she should present the verses abrogated and the abrogating verse.

About fighting or killing, it is only those who are against peace and justice and they create disturbance in the land and they oppress the believers and drive the believers out of their homes, they are rascals. It is necessary to fight against such persons only. They are described as kafirs i.e. hostile disbelievers. Not every non-muslim (non-believer) is a kafir. Christians are beleivers. They believe in God and the prophets and the books. They are not kaafirs unless they pick up a fight against Islam.

The Catholics are faithful or meaning is faithful. They are believers and they love God. There is much similarity between the catholics ( and the original teachings of Jesus) and Islam. All prophets brought the same religion, that is “Peace”. Every nation had a prophet. The message was from the One God and the message was almost same except some very slight difference… So I believe that the Catholics and Muslims are very close to each other.**

Why don’t you go tell your fellow jihadists the above? And maybe we will start believing that islam is peaceful and benign - until then - there is too much in the koran that is violent. I have already printed out the violence that is in the koran. And what muslims fail to convey is that ‘loving thy neighbor’ only applies to other muslims. And even then they brought back the ‘eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth’ mentality that Christ told us not to do.

 

[Lisdogan]

The following is for information only. It is probably not mainstream thread material, but needs to be taken into account in this discussion, I think.

In the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, paragraph 16, the Vatican II Council Fathers wrote: "Those who have not yet received the gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.

There is, first, that people to which the covenants and promises were made, and from which Christ was born according to the flesh (cf. Romans 9:4-5): In view of the divine choice, they are a people most dear for the sake of the fathers, for the gifts of God are without repentance (cf. Romans 11:28-29).

"**But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: These profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day. **
"Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:25-28), and since the Saviour wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Timothy 2:4).

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through dictates of their conscience—those too, may achieve eternal salvation.

“Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life.”

So the Fathers of the Council do not exclude anyone acting in good faith from the possibility of salvation.

 

[Sister_Amy]

R_not:

Definition: In Islam, da’wa means a “call” or “invitation,” and has been used to refer to a person being “called” to follow Islam. However, it has developed into the idea of a “mission” or “propaganda,” either in a political or religious sense.

Da’wah is literally to call or invite people to islam. It has essentially three stages. The first is conveying the message of Islam–telling people what Muslims believe. The second is teaching Islam–teaching people how to apply Islam and follow Islam. And third is to actually implement Islam full-scale, so that a whole society is operating under Islam (willingly, not by force.) Right now we are doing the first two stages. The third stage is for whenever the Muslims get their act together (collectively) and have learned enough Islam (stage 2) to progress.

Think of it like a pyramid, with stage 1 at the bottom–something ongoing, Stage 2 comes after stage 1–when people accept Islam, then they learn how to practice it. And then stage 3 after that, once they begin practicing it individually it can move on.

However, the notion of a “mission” is a Christian idea, not a Muslim one. Likewise, propaganda is something else than da’wah.

Everytime a Muslim interacts with a non-Muslim, he should be giving da’wah. So to accuse Muslims here of da’wah is childish–it should of course be quite obvious. Nobody is forcing you to accept Islam, simply rejecting the lies which are being spread about Islam.

Doesn’t everyone have the right to hear what Muslims really believe? Doesn’t everyone have the right to make a decision for themselves? Of course they do.

 

[Booklover]

Da’wah is literally to call or invite people to islam. It has essentially three stages. The first is conveying the message of Islam–telling people what Muslims believe. The second is teaching Islam–teaching people how to apply Islam and follow Islam. And third is to actually implement Islam full-scale, so that a whole society is operating under Islam (willingly, not by force.) Right now we are doing the first two stages. The third stage is for whenever the Muslims get their act together (collectively) and have learned enough Islam (stage 2) to progress.

Not true! Implementing Islam “full-scale” as you call it, means forcing non-Muslims to accept Islam and its inhuman sharia laws whether they want to or not!

Think of it like a pyramid, with stage 1 at the bottom–something ongoing, Stage 2 comes after stage 1–when people accept Islam, then they learn how to practice it. And then stage 3 after that, once they begin practicing it individually it can move on.

In step 2 all independent thinking and reasoning are abolished and everyone has to act and think the same way.Questioning any Islamic teaching is not allowed.

However, the notion of a “mission” is a Christian idea, not a Muslim one. Likewise, propaganda is something else than da’wah.

Everytime a Muslim interacts with a non-Muslim, he should be giving da’wah. So to accuse Muslims here of da’wah is childish–it should of course be quite obvious. Nobody is forcing you to accept Islam, simply rejecting the lies which are being spread about Islam.

Other faiths have the same rights to teach their beliefs.

Doesn’t everyone have the right to hear what Muslims really believe? Doesn’t everyone have the right to make a decision for themselves? Of course they do.

Non-Muslims also have the right to reject Islam, Muhammad and the Quran.

Vickie

 

[R_not]

Not true! Implementing Islam “full-scale” as you call it, means forcing non-Muslims to accept Islam and its inhuman sharia laws whether they want to or not!

In step 2 all independent thinking and reasoning are abolished and everyone has to act and think the same way.Questioning any Islamic teaching is not allowed.

Other faiths have the same rights to teach their beliefs.

Non-Muslims also have the right to reject Islam, Muhammad and the Quran.

Vickie

Vickie! glad to read one of your posts

Well, one thing that I can say about it is that you are right on all accounts. The problem with the last statement though is that in a muslim’s mind - or what they are taught in their koran/hadiths - is that if we reject it then we are fair game… basically ‘fair game’ as a deer, rabbit, squirrel, etc are ‘fair game’.

You should hop on over to the ‘Understanding Muhammad: A Psychobiography of Allah’s Prophet.’ thread. It is about that book I bought a few weeks ago that I am just getting into.

I have read some others so there is a lot of info that is repeated but there is a lot of info that is brand new:

• The Life and Religion of mohammed
• The Sword of the prophet, islam
• The Politically Incorrect Guide (PIG) of islam
• and some others that had some short blurbs about mohammed, besides the articles on the web about him.

This book ranks up there with the first book I listed. Now, keep in mind that the first book I listed was censored on many websites and stores because of intimidation from CAIR/muslims. But it can still be found.

Oh well, I just got excited. It is an interesting website.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Not true! Implementing Islam “full-scale” as you call it, means forcing non-Muslims to accept Islam and its inhuman sharia laws whether they want to or not!

Heh. Of course not. And you very well know why. You keep saying this, I keep pointing to 2:256, then you point to something else which is totally irrelevant trying to say it’s been abrogated and whatever. Nobody can be forced to accept Islam. Nobody can be forced to accept Shari’a. When the Muslims establish for themselves an Islamic state, they leave the non-Muslims to rule by their own laws, and they are not forced to accept Shari’ah. If anything other than that should happen, then they have a legitimate Islamic gripe with the leader of the Islamic government. This has a precedent–a city was “conquered” by a Muslim army without having accepted Islam first, so they sent an envoy to the caliph who, if I recall correctly, had the army pull out and teach them Islam. And then they accepted it. The force thing? It’s not allowed. The end.

In step 2 all independent thinking and reasoning are abolished and everyone has to act and think the same way.Questioning any Islamic teaching is not allowed.That’s just silly. Just because you don’t like what I believe doesn’t mean you have to insult it. If a person accepts Islam, and wants to learn it, and someone teaches them Islam and they want to follow it… why does that bother you so much?

Other faiths have the same rights to teach their beliefs.

Doesn’t bother me. But you have a problem with people teaching Islam, apparently.

Non-Muslims also have the right to reject Islam, Muhammad and the Quran.

Here is a question to ponder: do non-Christians have the “right” as you put it to reject Christianity, Jesus, and the Bible? Just a question to think about.

Take care Vickie. Thanks for following me around and replying to my posts, though. It makes me feel uber-special.

 

[R_not]

Heh. You keep saying this, I keep pointing to 2:256, then you point to something else which is totally irrelevant trying to say it’s been abrogated and whatever. Nobody can be forced to accept Islam. Nobody can be forced to accept Shari’a. When the Muslims establish for themselves an Islamic state, they leave the non-Muslims to rule by their own laws, and they are not forced to accept Shari’ah. If anything other than that should happen, then they have a legitimate Islamic gripe with the leader of the Islamic government. This has a precedent–a city was “conquered” by a Muslim army without having accepted Islam first, so they sent an envoy to the caliph who, if I recall correctly, had the army pull out and teach them Islam. And then they accepted it. The force thing? It’s not allowed. The end.

In step 2 all independent thinking and reasoning are abolished and everyone has to act and think the same way.Questioning any Islamic teaching is not allowed.

*That’s just silly. Just because you don’t like what I believe doesn’t mean you have to insult it. If a person accepts Islam, and wants to learn it, and someone teaches them Islam and they want to follow it… why does that bother you so much?

Doesn’t bother me. But you have a problem with people teaching Islam, apparently.

Here is a question to ponder: do non-Christians have the “right” as you put it to reject Christianity, Jesus, and the Bible? Just a question to think about.

Take care Vickie. Thanks for following me around and replying to my posts, though. It makes me feel uber-special. *

end quote from sister amy

This is like reading someone’s fairy tale of life. Surah 2:256, surah 5:32 - all abrogated surahs - are an especially favorite of muslims practicing da’wa to the uninformed.

And the part that I am refering to as being fairy tales are the parts where it is safe for non-muslims in muslim lands to practice their religions. It is not and for a daily dose of what happens to them - go to some alternate websites, such as jihadwatch.org. (the muslims don’t like this website - they don’t like us knowing the truth)

The thing is that bothers me is the phrase, ‘when muslims establish for themselves an islamic state…’, only tells me that they are indeed on a stealth jihad. Thanks sister amy - you just reinforced what I know and have been trying to tell others - jihad comes in many forms and the muslims know that immigration, uncontrolled birth rates, polygamy, demands for us to capitulate to their ways/laws instead of them obeying the laws of the land they reside in, living in groups so as to control the votes in those areas, infiltration in our organizations (the MSA - the terrorist link to the muslim brotherhood in our colleges, increased violence against non-muslims and then claiming that they are the victims when it is never true, etc - are what is going on.

If you want to live in an islamic state - go to those countries where the muslims have already slaughtered and stole lands from the Jews, Christians, and others. We know about islam’s imperialistic motives.

and we know that the surahs that muslims practicing da’wa are usually the abrogated verses that muslims will keep continuing to deny. Ignorance is no excuse anymore. There is the internet and you can go and find out about your religion, your prophet, your god.

Just because you keep on denying this doesn’t make it true. Way too many ex-muslims, and people who fled the subjugation - or the hades on earth that muslims have created for non-muslims in muslim lands - have written about islam and have given us the straight scoop on it.

While you tell us about the same old abrogated verses hoping we will buy it - the jihadists use the verses that they know are valid. They use it to justify their violence and they know that the masses of ‘moderates’ are helping them along by da’wa.

I got this from a different thread and I think that I rather like it:

That is another contradiction with Christianity with islam, Jesus teaches this in (Matthew 7:15-20):
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”

 

[R_not]

Here is the difference between people rejecting Christianity and people rejecting islam - we won’t go after them if they reject Christianity and either kill them, or subjugate them, or force them to convert by kidnapping them and forcing them to marry muslim males. As what is happening in Pakistan, Kashmir and India or in Africa, or in Europe, or in Southeast Asia, etc.

If we have bad men/women who do bad things our laws are such that we will go after them, put them in jail, give them a trial and mete out punishment, if necessary. Sharia law does not care that if non-muslims are kidnapped and forced to marry muslims - or even become slaves. Sharia law does not care if non-muslims are treated badly (beaten, raped, etc), or killed, or anything because they are infidels and they don’t have the rights as a muslim male has. Sharia law doesn’t even give muslim women the full rights - and don’t give me some bunk about a dowry or something - honor killings are alive and well in islam, as is polygamy (of which you have admitted to doing which is a felony in our land), beatings, stonings, clitorectomies, etc.

And don’t give me the stuff that it is due to different races of people - it is only the muslims of those races doing those clitorectomies.

You really need to get some news as to what is happening worldwide. When you write such things as you do it invalidates so much because if you are not even aware of what is happening, the facts, then how can your other words be taken seriously?

 

[umerazad]

Here is the difference between people rejecting Christianity and people rejecting islam - we won’t go after them if they reject Christianity and either kill them, or subjugate them, or force them to convert by kidnapping them and forcing them to marry muslim males. As what is happening in Pakistan, Kashmir and India or in Africa, or in Europe, or in Southeast Asia, etc.

Baseless argument. Sister Amy already quoted Quran (2:256) that its a false allegation. I don’t know why you’ll bring it again and again. On the other hand I would like to hear what you think about the following passage from Holy Bible:

**
Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 Verse 6 onwards:

13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
**

Whenever I raise this argument, my Christian brothers say that No no … you are mis-understanding it. The Mosaic Law was given to Israel through Moses. You are committing the logical fallacy of faulty comparison by quoting from the Old Testament to support your scripture. The commandment to kill idolaters was confined to Israel, which was a religious community that needed to survive among all the other pagan nations of the world.

While when I read New Testament, I read that Jesus (PBUH) very unequivocally said in Mathews 5:17-18:

**
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil it.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
**

In the above verse Jesus (PBUH) very unquivocally said that he DID NOT come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. Meaning, the LAW would stay as it is unless something is specially over-ridden by Jesus (PBUH).

It always confuses me when my Christian friends believe that they are above the law and just believing in Jesus (PBUH) will earn them eternal life. Because when I read further in Mathews (5:19-20) I find:

**
19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
   **

I honestly want to know how can ones righteousness exceed the righteous of those Jews (Pharisees) without keeping the commandments. Also, verse 19 is very explicit that even breaking a least of commandments of God is a sin. So now what do you think about the Deutronomy reference that I quoted at the top.

I’ve no bad intention and I’ve cross-checked that I am not quoting anything out of context. I really want to understand the Catholic point of view. So, it would be nice if some brother can explain the Catholic point of view. I am relatively new to these forums but most of the times I’ve been bashed by my Christian brothers for being a muslim but none ever tried to explain the Christian point of view in a gentle way. I expect an honest and simple reply and I promise that I’ll go back and research the answer and come back again if more explanation is required.

Thanks,
Umer

 

[Angelos]

Baseless argument. Sister Amy already quoted Quran (2:256) that its a false allegation. I don’t know why you’ll bring it again and again.

Sister Amy’s objection is baseless since the Koran verse you both recurrently quote preceded the verses commanding Muslims to kill idolaters and fight all non-Muslims (Surah 9) and was replaced with them.

On the other hand I would like to hear what you think about the following passage from Holy Bible:

**
Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 Verse 6 onwards:

13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
**

Whenever I raise this argument, my Christian brothers say that No no … you are mis-understanding it. The Mosaic Law was given to Israel through Moses. You are committing the logical fallacy of faulty comparison by quoting from the Old Testament to support your scripture. The commandment to kill idolaters was confined to Israel, which was a religious community that needed to survive among all the other pagan nations of the world.

What does this have to do with our argument? The verses you have brought from the Mosaic Law is impertinent to our discussion because they never impose on Jews the duty of converting all pagans to Judaism through wars.

Besides, you are talking about a LAW (the social code of conduct) given to a specific nation.

While when I read New Testament, I read that Jesus (PBUH) very unequivocally said in Mathews 5:17-18:

**
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil it.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
**

In the above verse Jesus (PBUH) very unquivocally said that he DID NOT come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. Meaning, the LAW would stay as it is unless something is specially over-ridden by Jesus (PBUH).

It always confuses me when my Christian friends believe that they are above the law and just believing in Jesus (PBUH) will earn them eternal life. Because when I read further in Mathews (5:19-20) I find:

**
19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
   **

It is true that Jesus did not come to destroy the Law and the prophets. However, this does not mean that all Gentiles believing in Jesus will be bound by the precepts of the Mosaic Law. You will find answers to your questions as soon as you find out what Jesus means by fulfilling the Law. If your argument were true, Jesus would never emphasize the contrast between the things said to ancestors of the Jews in the past and the things said to them by Himself. (You heard that it was said, BUT I SAY TO YOU…)

More to the point, Jesus - through His sermon on the mount - endorses the divine origin and authority of the Mosaic Law, but never states that the Law is perfect and crucial for gaining salvation. You should also bear in mind that Jesus addresses the Israelites in that context!

I honestly want to know how can ones righteousness exceed the righteous of those Jews (Pharisees) without keeping the commandments. Also, verse 19 is very explicit that even breaking a least of commandments of God is a sin. So now what do you think about the Deutronomy reference that I quoted at the top.

You should read the following quotes from the New Testament and compare it with the notion highlighted in Deuteronomy 13:6-10:

Mark 10:29-30
Jesus answering said: Amen I say to you, there is no man who hath left house or brethren or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, Who shall not receive an hundred times as much, now in this time: houses and brethren and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions: and in the world to come life everlasting.

Matthew 10:34-37
Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law And a man’s enemies shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me.

The commandment of giving priority to faith and loving God at the expense of closest family members in Deuteronomy is kept by Jesus and His followers although faith in Jesus makes His believers swap roles with the pagans in the Deuteronomy. In other words, Moses tells Israelites to KILL their pagan relatives whereas Jesus asks His disciples to BE KILLED by their relatives if necessary.

 

[planten]

Why don’t you go tell your fellow jihadists the above? And maybe we will start believing that islam is peaceful and benign - until then - there is too much in the koran that is violent. I have already printed out the violence that is in the koran. And what muslims fail to convey is that ‘loving thy neighbor’ only applies to other muslims. And even then they brought back the ‘eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth’ mentality that Christ told us not to do.

I have nothing to do with any Jihadist. They are misguided about Islam same you are misguided about Christianity. You had posted the following in post #17:

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Please see what is the problem. You know that it is fighting against the oppressors, the culprits. Do you want that the Muslims should go and kiss them? The verse above is speaking about the enemies of Allah and enemies of the truth. It is necessary to fight such bad people. Your lesson of love is false and unnatural.

Now i have proved to you that if there is any violence in the Quran it is against the enemies of humanity, not against any innocent person. So you have failed to make any point against Islam.

 

[Sam_777]

Doesn’t everyone have the right to hear what Muslims really believe? Doesn’t everyone have the right to make a decision for themselves? Of course they do.

Hi Sister Amy,

A good approach indeed, but can you say this to the Muslims in Saudi Arabia when you come here:

“Doesn’t everyone have the right to hear what Christians really believe? Doesn’t everyone have the right to make a decision for themselves?”

 

[Sam_777]

** 19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
   **
   I honestly want to know how can ones righteousness exceed the righteous of those Jews (Pharisees) without keeping the commandments. Also, verse 19 is very explicit that even breaking a least of commandments of God is a sin. So now what do you think about the Deutronomy reference that I quoted at the top.

mountainretreatorg.net/faq/scribes_and_pharisees.shtml

 

[Angelos]

I have nothing to do with any Jihadist. They are misguided about Islam same you are misguided about Christianity. You had posted the following in post #17:

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Please see what is the problem. You know that it is fighting against the oppressors, the culprits. Do you want that the Muslims should go and kiss them? The verse above is speaking about the enemies of Allah and enemies of the truth. It is necessary to fight such bad people. Your lesson of love is false and unnatural.

Now i have proved to you that if there is any violence in the Quran it is against the enemies of humanity, not against any innocent person. So you have failed to make any point against Islam.

You have proven nothing so far. Who determines what act makes a person an enemy of humanity? Being a non-Muslim? Criticising Islam and Mohammad? Declaring a war of intellect on Islam?

I really wonder how you can relegate the notion of waging a war in that specific Koran verse to physical sttruggles. How is it possible for a non-Muslim human to attack Allah (an invisible and almighty deity) with a sword? Is it really difficult for you to see that the Koran regards everyone opposing Islam and criticising Mohammad as an enemy to Allah???

 

[Leo_Ricco]

Hello guys,

First of all, how do you define a prophet, a seer, a man of God, etc…?

It is defined if you answer this questions or tests:

Is it supernatural? If yes, then:

Is it from God or the devil? Try to find out the message.

Did Mohamed performed a miracle(like dividing the Red Sea, raiding the dead, or moving the sun) to support his claim that he is sent by God thru Gabriel? Obviously he didn’t, thus failing the first test. Anybody could claim to be a prophet.

Try to look at some of his teachings:

You may marry up to 4 times(but Mohamed married 6 times and his six wife was six years old, the marriage was consummated when the girl as 9 - qualifies him to be a pedophile).
It is a violation of the 6th & the 9th commandment.

You may lie your enemies if you can’t handle them for now.
Violation of the 7th commandment.

Kill every mushrik you see.
Violation of the 5th commandment.

Jesus is God(Allah)
Mohamed contradicts this.
Violation of the 1st commandment.

Did Christ foretold anyone who is coming after Him?

Wake up people islam is only Mohamed’s invention & yet we allowed ourselves to be fooled by him.

God bless you all!!!

 

[R_not]

Baseless argument. Sister Amy already quoted Quran (2:256) that its a false allegation. I don’t know why you’ll bring it again and again. On the other hand I would like to hear what you think about the following passage from Holy Bible:

**

Thanks,
Umer**

The Muslim Game:

Muslims quote verse 2:256 from the Qur’an to prove what a tolerant religion Islam is. The verse reads in part, “Let there be no compulsion in religion; truth stands out clearly from error…”

The Truth:

The Muslim who offers this verse may or may not understand that it is from one of the earliest Suras (or chapters) from the Medinan period. It was “revealed” at a time when the Muslims had just arrived in Medina after being chased out of Mecca. They needed to stay in the good graces of the stronger tribes around them, many of which were Jewish. It was around this time, for example, that Muhammad decided to have his followers change the direction of their prayer from Mecca to Jerusalem.

But Muslims today pray toward Mecca. The reason for this is that Muhammad issued a later command that abrogated (or nullified) the first. In fact, abrogation is a very important principle to keep in mind when interpreting the Qur’an – and verse 2:256 in particular – because later verses (in chronological terms) are said to abrogate any earlier ones that may be in contradiction.

Muhammad’s message was far closer to peace and tolerance during his early years at Mecca, when he didn’t have an army. This changed dramatically after he attained the power to conquer, which he eventually used with impunity to bring other tribes into the Muslim fold. Contrast verse 2:256 with Suras 9 and 5, which were the last “revealed,” and it is easy to see why Islam has been anything but a religion of peace from the time of Muhammad to the present day.

There is some evidence that verse 2:256 may not have been intended for Muslims at all, but is instead meant to be a message to other religions concerning their treatment of Muslims. Verse 193 of the same Sura instructs Muslims to “fight with them (non-Muslims) until there is no more persecution and religion is only for Allah.” This reinforces the narcissistic nature of Islam, which places Muslims above non-Muslims, and applies very different standards to both groups.

Though many Muslims today reject the practice of outright forcing others into changing their religion, forced conversion has been a part of Islamic history since Muhammad first picked up a sword. As he is recorded in many places as saying, “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah…”

Muhammad put his words into practice. When he marched into Mecca with an army, one of his very first tasks was to destroy idols at the Kaaba, which had been devoutly worshipped by the Arabs for centuries. By destroying these objects of worship, he destroyed the religion of the people and supplanted it with his own.

Interestingly, even the Muslims who quote 2:256 usually believe in Islamic teachings that sound very much like religious compulsion. These would be the laws punishing apostasy by death, and the institutionalized discrimination against religious minorities under Islamic rule that is sometimes referred to as “dhimmiitude.”

Dhimmitude prohibits non-Muslims from sharing their faith and even includes the extortion of money from them in the form of a tax called the jizya. Those who refuse to pay this arbitrary amount are put to death. If this isn’t compulsion, then what is?

 

[R_not]

I have nothing to do with any Jihadist. They are misguided about Islam same you are misguided about Christianity. You had posted the following in post #17:

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Please see what is the problem. You know that it is fighting against the oppressors, the culprits. Do you want that the Muslims should go and kiss them? The verse above is speaking about the enemies of Allah and enemies of the truth. It is necessary to fight such bad people. Your lesson of love is false and unnatural.

Now i have proved to you that if there is any violence in the Quran it is against the enemies of humanity, not against any innocent person. So you have failed to make any point against Islam.

You actually proved my point more than yours. Thanks. There is indeed violence - some say there are 109 surahs - I say there are 164. You twist the meaning by saying ‘the enemies of allah’, or the ‘oppressors’, etc. You guys finally find a peaceful surah and those two passages (2:256 and 5:32) are used over and over again. When muslims don’t get their way such as sharia law, making infidels into dhimmi (subjugated peoples) then they call us the oppressors - in our own lands. In fact, if we were in a land with sharia law, us Catholics wouldn’t be allowed to discuss islam - on our own websites - because you would be what you described above and worse - cutting off our hands - or heads.

164 violent surahs
73 - 020 Shakir: ‘fight in allah’s way’
76 - 008 Shakir: Muslims feed captives
25 - 052 Palmer: 'fight strenuously with ’ unbelievers ‘in many a strenuous fight’
16 - 110 Yusuf Ali: ‘who thereafter strive (jahadoo) and fight for the faith’
29 - 006 ‘whoever strives (Arabic: jahada), he strives (Arabic: yujahidu)’
42 - 039 ‘…who, when an injury is done to them, avenge themselves…’
2 - 178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244
64 - 014
8 - 001, 005, 007, 009-010, 015-017, 039-048, 057-060, 065-075
47 - 004, 020, 035
3 - 121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167, 169, 172-173, 195
61 - 004, 011, 013
4 - 071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095, 100-104, 144
59 - 002, 005-008, 014
33 - 015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050
63 - 004
24 - 053,055
22 - 039, 058, 078
48 - 015-024
66 - 009
60 - 009
49 - 015
9 - 005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029, 036, 038-039,
041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 081, 083, 086, 088, 092, 111, 120,
122-123
5 - 033, 035, 082

Is the koran hate?
thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Quran-Hate.htm

Does the koran preach hate and violence?
thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

 

[R_not]

Actually, it is not true when a muslim says they have nothing to do with jihad. Jihad comes in many forms and da’wa is jihad also. The misleading non-muslims as to what islam is all about and calling us to islam since islam only recognizes 3 ways to peace - death to infidels, conversion, or subjugation.

thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/013-forced-conversion.htm

Forced Conversion
koran surahs 9: 29, 5, 12 and 2:193
hadiths: Muslim 1:33 and 19:4294, Bukhari 8:387, 53:392, 2:24, 59:643 and Ibn Ishaq 959 to name a few hadiths.

Question:
Can Muslims force others to accept Islam?

Summary Answer:
Muslims are commanded to fight unbelievers until they are either dead, converted to Islam, or in a permanent state of subjugation under Muslim domination. Allowing people of other faiths to live and worship independently of Islamic rule is not an option.

.
.
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Before his death, Muhammad sent his warriors against pagan Arab tribes, such as the al-Harith, demanding that they either convert to Islam or be wiped out (they opted for the Religion of Peace). On his deathbed, he cursed Christians and Jews (Bukhari (59:727)).

Muslims are taught to follow in the way of Muhammad. Putting two and two together, Muslims down through the centuries have forced Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, pagans and others to accept Islam, either by bluntly offering them death as an alternative, or by making their lives so miserable (ie. taxes, denial of rights…) that the conquered convert to Islam under the strain.

Forced conversions persist among extremists. Recently in Egypt, a Christian girl was kidnapped and told that she would be raped if she did not convert. Another notable case was the kidnapping and forced videotaped conversion of two FOX reporters in Gaza in September, 2006. Neither of these examples of forced conversion was condemned by Islamic organizations, even in the West.

Since Muslims believe so sincerely that their religion is truth, they often can’t help but feel, on some level, that forced conversion is more of a favor done to the subject - a case of the end justifying the means, which explains the lack of passion.