Catholicism verses Islam differences and similarities

[jen_fla]

Sailka;3873614:

                                                                                                                                                                                          Your  words, thoughts are virtual Opposite of reality, and  teachings of Mother Church.  Islam Is  very demanding True  Religion, that   has   killing and conquest  as Opposite of its teachings and Koran.

my words are opposite of Mother Church? your profile says you are Catholic so I assume that is the Church you are speaking about. please read your second sentence again and tell me who just denied that Christ was crucified and raised from the dead? now that would be opposite to the teachings of the Church.

sorry sailka. i see that you did not say that MY words were opposite, but instead were addressing R_Not. i think by the time i figured out how to copy and paste info from different posts that when i finally had them all on my response i forgot that they all weren’t addressed to me. duh and der.

but regardless, you did say that **“Islam Is very demanding True Religion” **although your profile says Catholic. did you mean to say that islam has some truth in it? because i would have to agree with you. i also noticed you never answered these questions:

Hi Sailka,

It seems as a Catholic you like Islam too much, however, I have some questions to you, (yes, no, don’t know) will be sufficient:

• Do you consider Islam to be a revelation from God The Most High.
• Do you consider Muhammed as a prophet from God The Most High.

i does appear that any reply that is pro-islam on this thread you wholeheartedly agree with, even when there are contradictions being made.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        And Islam teaches that killing Anyone not in Combat or self defense is Worst  crime, sending the offender to Hell.    
                                                                                                                                                                                          It appears you have been massivelly  hyped.

that is your response to me when sister amy and umerazad admitted that given solid proof of adultery in islamic law condones stoning to death? why did you wag your finger at me when i finally got an answer? i am not sure how frequently that occurs, but if it is condoned by islamic law and NOT just a bunch of extremists, then your reply makes no sense.

again this wasn’t your reply to me. it was to R-Not’s post #166. my mistake, but regardless, my answer to your response still holds.

again i do apologize for those errors i made in post #191. i am not used to posting on forums and am learning how to reply in a less confusing way.

that being said i still have not heard any decent explanation on here to justify islamic law being so UNMERCIFUL towards an adulterous couple.

**do muslims believe God wants islamic law to spread (and by spread i mean replace what form of government is currently there) to all nations? **

when i asked what does a muslim do if one interprets the quran in a different manner than another and to whom do you go for ultimate authority? the response was that one would go to a scholar. but these scholars disagree or there would not be so many sects. who has the ultimate say? is it the one with the biggest sword? because that is another huge difference between these two religions. we have ONE final authority to turn to.

 

[jen_fla]

Friend you haven’t read Bible. Did ya? When I read it here is what I found:

*Exodus 20:14 “You shall not commit adultery.”

Deuteronomy 22:22 “If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die.”

Leviticus 20:10 “If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife–with the wife of his neighbor–both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.”

Proverbs 6:32 “But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself.”

Leviticus 21:9 “And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.”

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 “If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.”
Whenever I quote these verses from Old Testament I get an argument from some Christian brother ( who clearly didn’t read the Bible with understanding ) saying that * you are mis-understanding it. The Mosaic Law was given to Israel through Moses. You are committing the logical fallacy of faulty comparison by quoting from the Old Testament to support your scripture. The commandment to kill adulterers was confined to Israel and no more apply to us. *

While when I read New Testament, I read that Jesus (PBUH) very unequivocally said in Mathews 5:17-18:

1. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil it.
2. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

In the above verse Jesus (PBUH) very unquivocally said that he DID NOT come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. Meaning, the LAW would stay as it is unless something is specially over-ridden by Jesus (PBUH). In your specific example Jesus (PBUH) let go the women only because there was no proof presented to him of her adultery. He (PBUH) was a very wise man and would never promote a social evil like adultery (which at times lead to prostitution).

The laws are meant to act as deterrence. And I read some beautiful writings of Christian authors who ‘categorized adultery as a plague of modern Christian societies’. Adultory is the major reason behind sky-rocketing divorce rates in USA which results in destruction of families and what not.

My only point is that it is the responsibiliy of the State to stop social evils from spreading. And adultery and prostitution (which is a form of adultery) are some of them.

all those passages from the OT are for that time period. thank goodness, the Church does not teach us to kill sinners. the OT can be a huge stumbling block for many trying to learn the loving message behind God’s plan and i am certainly not educated enough to explain it all, but i did find this link from another thread that is very helpful.

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/02/hard_sayings_of.html

would love to find more links because this is very important to understanding some of the major differences between the two religions. the Church does NOT teach us (nor have i EVER heard of any Jew teaching) to kill an adulterous couple.

i had made a statement earlier that sounded like i was saying that the Bible is easy to understand and that was in no way what i meant to convey. the Bible is so rich and complex that we could study it our whole lives and still have much to discover.

let’s say you are taking an extremely difficult course on the theory of relativity. which would be the best scenario? a) figure out the text book yourself, b) get somebody else that has studied the topic and thinks they understand what einstein meant or c) have einstein himself be the tutor?

your objection that when we say that those OT passages are not for this current time is the passage from matthew 5:17. that is a good objection. it does appear that there is a contradiction.

i am a ding dong and can not properly explain this, however, since, i know better than to go making up what i think COULD be the possible explanations, i will have to turn to the authority of the Church. and i can almost hear the grumblings of some (what a blind follower, can’t come to conclusions on her own, etc…), but time and time again, the Church gives a solid explanation that always makes sense. when something still does not sit right, keep digging and the rewards will be utterly mind blowing. i can NOT emphasize that enough.

so i said it will take me awhile to answer. yet stay tuned and we can sort through it. by turning to the Church we shall see how to work out this puzzle together because as we have been saying from day one, the Catholic Church is Universal so her answers should and DO make sense for EVERYBODY regardless of race, creed, sex etc etc.

 

[Postmodern]

#1. you haven’t even presented your paper to prove where you are getting your ‘hard evidence’.

Let’s be grown ups shall we?

I have offered on numerous occasions to cite to you where my data comes from, so please do not insinuate that I have attempted to avoid presenting my evidence.

Journal: Journal of Economic Perspectives
Title: “Education, Poverty, and Terrorism: Is there a Causal Connection?”
Authors: Krueger B. Alan and Jitka Maleckova

Journal: Sociological Theory
Title: “International Terrorism and the World System”
Authors: Albert J. Bergesen and Omar Lizardo

Gallop World Poll, “The Battle for Hearts and Minds: Moderate vs. Extremist Views in the Muslim World” by Dalia Mogahed

The same author and another who’s name forget collected Gallops global findings in a book, “Why Speaks for Islam”, in that book you will find ample data on demographics of individuals convicted of “Honor” killings.

#2. from the comments above I do not find that your hard evidence is hard at all - I don’t find your revisionist history valid since it isn’t what has happened, for example in Lebanon. It is in fact what the usual muslim story is about any country they bring down to their level.

Apparently you have difficulty reading.

I never claimed anything that would constitute “revisionist” history. I claimed that Hezbollah justifies their targeting of Israeli civilians by Israel’s actions in Lebanon, not because the Israeli’s are “infidels”.

He gives a very detailed justification in this journal (it’s the transcripts of an interview with the leader of Hezbollah)

11 September, Terrorism, Islam, and the Intifada
Shaykh Muhammad, Husayn Fadlallah, Joseph Massad
Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 31, No. 2 (Winter, 2002), pp. 78-84

#3 from the comments on sharia law, honor killings, etc - I don’t even find that you have done any research beyond trying to prove some point that is probably what your paper is about.

No my paper was on Globalization and Terrorism, I have told you where you can find the statistics. The facts are the facts, there is an inverse correlation between Islamic religiosity and a propensity to commit “honor killings”

The difference between say, Jews and Christians is that the Jews don’t practice it anymore and haven’t for centuries and in Christianity it isn’t even mentioned in the NT. The only ones allowing it are countries under sharia law due to the fact that the rights of women are just not up to par. And the ones who bring it here to our shores - are muslims. thank goodness we have laws that deal with such atrocious acts. that is the difference between sharia law and our ‘man made laws’ which I find far superior to sharia law - the supposed laws of a god.

Yes, Honor killings are largely confined to “Muslim” nations. Not all Muslim nations, but certain one’s. Honor killings are a cultural phenomena, they are not commanded by Islam, and there is no positive correlation between Islamic religiosity and honor killings

#4. here is a very good explanation on how muslims change the facts according to what they want to convey to people gullible enough to swallow it. As we saw the facts changed in regards to Lebanon - and as you are trying to revise, and as we have seen that the muslims revise that was helped along by our own media.

Try to read what I actually wrote first, that’s what I have volunteered to discuss. I have only superficial knowledge of the conflict in Lebanon and no desire to debate it.

 

[jen_fla]

all those passages from the OT are for that time period. thank goodness, the Church does not teach us to kill sinners. the OT can be a huge stumbling block for many trying to learn the loving message behind God’s plan and i am certainly not educated enough to explain it all, but i did find this link from another thread that is very helpful.

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/02/hard_sayings_of.html

whoops, i don’t think proverbs was just for that time only. sorry.

 

[R_not]

Let’s be grown ups shall we?

I have offered on numerous occasions to cite to you where my data comes from, so please do not insinuate that I have attempted to avoid presenting my evidence.

Journal: Journal of Economic Perspectives
Title: “Education, Poverty, and Terrorism: Is there a Causal Connection?”
Authors: Krueger B. Alan and Jitka Maleckova

Journal: Sociological Theory
Title: “International Terrorism and the World System”
Authors: Albert J. Bergesen and Omar Lizardo

Gallop World Poll, “The Battle for Hearts and Minds: Moderate vs. Extremist Views in the Muslim World” by Dalia Mogahed

The same author and another who’s name forget collected Gallops global findings in a book, “Why Speaks for Islam”, in that book you will find ample data on demographics of individuals convicted of “Honor” killings.

Apparently you have difficulty reading.

I never claimed anything that would constitute “revisionist” history. I claimed that Hezbollah justifies their targeting of Israeli civilians by Israel’s actions in Lebanon, not because the Israeli’s are “infidels”.

He gives a very detailed justification in this journal (it’s the transcripts of an interview with the leader of Hezbollah)

11 September, Terrorism, Islam, and the Intifada
Shaykh Muhammad, Husayn Fadlallah, Joseph Massad
Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 31, No. 2 (Winter, 2002), pp. 78-84

No my paper was on Globalization and Terrorism, I have told you where you can find the statistics. The facts are the facts, there is an inverse correlation between Islamic religiosity and a propensity to commit “honor killings”

Yes, Honor killings are largely confined to “Muslim” nations. Not all Muslim nations, but certain one’s. Honor killings are a cultural phenomena, they are not commanded by Islam, and there is no positive correlation between Islamic religiosity and honor killings

Try to read what I actually wrote first, that’s what I have volunteered to discuss. I have only superficial knowledge of the conflict in Lebanon and no desire to debate it.

Well, that is nice - nothing that I can look at on the web.

but we have seen too often that poverty, education and such - or the lack thereof - doesn’t have a tie between terrorism. let me see bin Laden, his #2 man, and others - are rather rich and his #2 was a doctor.

I do believe we went over this already. Students, doctors, professors, etc have been caught in the web of terrorism. When all of our attention was first averted to terrorism - the excuses were poverty, the illiterate, etc were reasons for islamic terrorism. Well, yes some are illiterate and poor - but many more are not. We see recruits from our own educated masses going to be jihadists - Johnny Walker Lind is one example - it is happening in Europe even more so.

And all I can do is second guess according to the titles of your sources. They don’t even sound like they have a grasp of what islam, the koran and its prophet are all about. This is why I am suspect as to all of what you are writing about.

No paper to read - a bunch of journals that I would have to have a subscription to in order to check out whatever you have to say that you keep touting as all important. You admit you don’t know the causes for one of the largest terrorist groups causing Israel problems. You only take their words for the reasons which could be totally false. (well, they are false since the aggression has been by the Hezbollah, and the palestinians, that are also in Lebanon and it continues to be from these peoples) The source for all of this, or where did this latest radicalization come from? Why not check out the history of the grand mufti - Al-Husseini - you might surprise yourself. If you dig back even further you would find that islam has been warring with peoples for about 1400 years with no end in sight.

shalomjerusalem.com/mohammedism/mohammedism22.html

tellthechildrenthetruth.com/amin_en.html

cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/arabnazi.html

so, you think that just because I am not bowing down to your ‘intellect’ that you should think that it is not ‘grown up’ to question this paper of yours and the resources for it? Get real. Just because you say it, doesn’t make it so.

 

[R_not]

As for ‘honor killings’ take a look at this page that I searched in jihadwatch for the word ‘honor killing’. Take note that it is in every muslim country that they reside in - even in our Western countries - they brought it along (along with slavery too but that is another topic). In saudi arabia, Jordan, Africa, Southeast Asia, Iraq, Pakistan, … basically everywhere or anywhere muslims reside - honor killings go on. So, it is a cultural thing, huh? Some of these countries are so ingrained with islam for so long, and considering that islam is just as political as it is a religion - it is all entertwined.

To make it easier to find the different countries - I would enter ‘honor killing Indonesia’ or ‘honor killing Somalia’ etc.

 

[Postmodern]

Well, that is nice - nothing that I can look at on the web.

Yes you can if you subscribe to the Journal

but we have seen too often that poverty, education and such - or the lack thereof - doesn’t have a tie between terrorism. let me see bin Laden, his #2 man, and others - are rather rich and his #2 was a doctor.

Actually, as the article points out, there is a correlation between wealth, education, and terrorism. Quoting from my original post on the matter.

"As for you rather simplistic question of “why do they hate” there is a plethora of scientific research directed towards this question, I’d be happy to foreword you the titles if you like.

The typical terrorist has a secondary to post secondary education education(for post secondary read college). He or she comes from a middle class to upper middle class home and typically is of average to above average intelligence. They are marked with a sense of hegemonic infringement on their contemporary cultural norms, they seem to believe their lives or way of life is in immediate danger from a foreign source."

These findings are confirmed by Gallops World Poll as well, which is free and you can easily access.

I do believe we went over this already. Students, doctors, professors, etc have been caught in the web of terrorism. When all of our attention was first averted to terrorism - the excuses were poverty, the illiterate, etc were reasons for islamic terrorism. Well, yes some are illiterate and poor - but many more are not. We see recruits from our own educated masses going to be jihadists - Johnny Walker Lind is one example - it is happening in Europe even more so.

Again

"These characteristics are not specific to “Islamic” terrorist groups. A survey of a Jewish terrorist group in the 1980’s revealed similar results, as did surveys of eighteen European/Christian terrorist organizations. Studies of the Anarchist movements yield similar results

They generally appear as the hegemonic influence of the principal global/regional power(read US), this period is also marked by increased instances of the hegemonic power using military force to secure international results that could have been accomplished by economic/political pressure in the past(sound familiar?)."

And all I can do is second guess according to the titles of your sources. They don’t even sound like they have a grasp of what islam, the koran and its prophet are all about. This is why I am suspect as to all of what you are writing about.

You are welcome to make any ridiculous conclusion you wish.

No paper to read - a bunch of journals that I would have to have a subscription to in order to check out whatever you have to say that you keep touting as all important.

What do you think my paper cited?

You admit you don’t know the causes for one of the largest terrorist groups causing Israel problems. You only take their words for the reasons which could be totally false. (well, they are false since the aggression has been by the Hezbollah, and the palestinians, that are also in Lebanon and it continues to be from these peoples) The source for all of this, or where did this latest radicalization come from? Why not check out the history of the grand mufti - Al-Husseini - you might surprise yourself. If you dig back even further you would find that islam has been warring with peoples for about 1400 years with no end in sight.

so, you think that just because I am not bowing down to your ‘intellect’ that you should think that it is not ‘grown up’ to question this paper of yours and the resources for it? Get real. Just because you say it, doesn’t make it so.

Again, you need to read more carefully.

"Let’s be grown ups shall we?

I have offered on numerous occasions to cite to you where my data comes from, so please do not insinuate that I have attempted to avoid presenting my evidence."

Nothing to do with you not bowing down to anything, or doubting the validity of my sources. It solely pertained to your attempt to insinuate that I was resistant to citing my sources.

Now, with regards to the Journal articles.

If you were to demonstrate even a smidgen of open mindedness, or even perhaps basic reading comprehension(as you have continually mischaracterized my statements, as above) I would be happy to help.

 

[Postmodern]

As for ‘honor killings’ take a look at this page that I searched in jihadwatch for the word ‘honor killing’. Take note that it is in every muslim country that they reside in - even in our Western countries - they brought it along (along with slavery too but that is another topic). In saudi arabia, Jordan, Africa, Southeast Asia, Iraq, Pakistan, … basically everywhere or anywhere muslims reside - honor killings go on. So, it is a cultural thing, huh? Some of these countries are so ingrained with islam for so long, and considering that islam is just as political as it is a religion - it is all entertwined.

To make it easier to find the different countries - I would enter ‘honor killing Indonesia’ or ‘honor killing Somalia’ etc.

Let’s see your data.

 

[R_not]

Let’s see your data.

I ask you to read the post and you will find the data, the facts.

As to the other post - you and I will have to disagree. I am not going to subscribe to something I don’t want to purchase/support. And since it is not available to the general public - it is bunk to me.

There is nothing else to support your thesis, since you are offering nothing else to offer - I will take it as that.

As for them fearing a change in their way of life - well, they are the ones migrating to other countries for numerable reasons and then they start the violence. Because their koran TEACHES them to be the ‘dominate ones’. They are taught time and again that they are to ‘fight us kafir in the way of allah’ (I paraphrase). there is nothing wrong with their economic status in our countries.

They are the ones exporting wahabbi imams to incite violence in our country.

Here is an article of what is going on in our mosques in New York - and also there are problems in L.A., and elsewhere since our cops here in California are trying to get into them to stop questionable activities - while fighting the ACLU and CAIR!
jihadwatch.org/archives/021644.php

Here is an example of what is happening in the UK - and if you think it is only in the UK - think again.
islameyat.com/dispatches_undercover_mosque.htm

I think the problem is that you spent a lot of time on a paper and your trying to prove something and it might not be totally true, or else it would be more accessible and not something that is refered to in such an arrogant manner while nothing is available to us. I don’t know what is up with it but something just doesn’t ‘smell’ right about it and that is why it is such a… secret. There are plenty of different opinions on the web that you could find that are similar to what you are trying to prove but you don’t even try. I am not going to join some exclusive websites to access one article on each site.

 

[Postmodern]

I ask you to read the post and you will find the data, the facts.

I read your post, I see no quantitative data

As to the other post - you and I will have to disagree. I am not going to subscribe to something I don’t want to purchase/support. And since it is not available to the general public - it is bunk to me.

Exactly what claims have I made that you need to verify?

There is nothing else to support your thesis, since you are offering nothing else to offer - I will take it as that.

What thesis do you wish me to cite?

As for them fearing a change in their way of life - well, they are the ones migrating to other countries for numerable reasons and then they start the violence. Because their koran TEACHES them to be the ‘dominate ones’. They are taught time and again that they are to ‘fight us kafir in the way of allah’ (I paraphrase). there is nothing wrong with their economic status in our countries.

I appreciate your through refutation.

I think the problem is that you spent a lot of time on a paper and your trying to prove something and it might not be totally true, or else it would be more accessible and not something that is refered to in such an arrogant manner while nothing is available to us.

If you live near a state university you can find many most of these Journals.

It’s not arrogance, I just have little patience with you.

I don’t know what is up with it but something just doesn’t ‘smell’ right about it and that is why it is such a… secret.

It’s not secretive, not at all.

There are plenty of different opinions on the web that you could find that are similar to what you are trying to prove but you don’t even try.

I have cited public studies. Most things “on the web” are not peer reviewed scientific studies.

I am not going to join some exclusive websites to access one article on each site.

Your not joining a website, your subscribing to a journal. There may be other ways to access these articles or get the relevant data. If you could show any propensity towards open mindedness, or anything beyond a feverish desire to have someone to hate/oppose I would be happy to help.

 

[R_not]

I read your post, I see no quantitative data

Exactly what claims have I made that you need to verify?

What thesis do you wish me to cite?

I appreciate your through refutation.

If you live near a state university you can find many most of these Journals.

It’s not arrogance, I just have little patience with you.

It’s not secretive, not at all.

I have cited public studies. Most things “on the web” are not peer reviewed scientific studies.

Your not joining a website, your subscribing to a journal. There may be other ways to access these articles or get the relevant data. If you could show any propensity towards open mindedness, or anything beyond a feverish desire to have someone to hate/oppose I would be happy to help.

Your lack of patience is due to the fact I am not buying what you assert. I am not going to waste my gas money and/or money for Bart, to go to some University that is about 45 miles away to spend hours trying to find something that will probably prove that I am correct in the first place just because you are too lazy to find some similar articles that are available to all of us via the web. There are plenty of valid sources on the web. It is YOUR assertion - YOU prove it.

I don’t agree with what you have posted so far and you back it up with some obscure references. I have stated it time and again. YOU reread the posts. I have given you websites to back me up.

As of this post - I am not going to continue this since it is off the topic. I don’t agree with you and that is fine. Deal with it - I will deal with it too. I won’t lose any sleep over it.

 

[jen_fla]

let me reword:

**do muslims believe Allah wants islamic law to spread (and by spread i mean replace current forms of government) ALL across the globe? **

i have read before that the answer is yes.

if so, would those that:

a) do NOT want to be ruled by islam
b) do NOT want to pay a tax and
c) DO speak out against islam

be put to death?

it would seem to me that islamic law would need to kill those that refuse to be ruled by it and those that speak out against it to protect the muslim faith.

 

[Verisimilitude]

let me reword:

do muslims believe Allah wants islamic law to spread (and by spread i mean replace current forms of government) ALL across the globe?

i have read before that the answer is yes.

if so, would those that:

a) do NOT want to be ruled by islam
b) do NOT want to pay a tax and
c) DO speak out against islam

be put to death?

it would seem to me that islamic law would need to kill those that refuse to be ruled by it and those that speak out against it to protect the muslim faith.

Only if a person is a ‘People of the Book’ (Jews and Christians) do they have some choice in the matter. Those non-Muslims that do not claim a Abrahamic faith are given two choices on the Islaimc battlefield- convert or be killed. Those non-Muslims that do are given three choices- convert, keep ones faith but be subjected to humiliation and Muslim dominance with the threat of renewed violence if that dominion is resisted, or death.

When Islam is in the majority of a country that is the mindset keeping in mind Islam made those rules centuries ago and the non-Muslim people living in places have been indoctrinated to be a dhimmi. Islamic tolerance is subjective and is evident in recent news stories in how Muslims treat non-Muslims in places like Egypt, Pakistan, Iran, Jordan, Syria, and Arabia to name a few.

When Islam is in the minority of a country Muslims say there is no compulsion in religion and that Islam is a peacefull call to worship the One God demanding the Western style tolerance they deny non-Muslims in Muslim dominated nations.

 

[Sister_Amy]

let me reword:

do muslims believe Allah wants islamic law to spread (and by spread i mean replace current forms of government) ALL across the globe?

i have read before that the answer is yes.

if so, would those that:

a) do NOT want to be ruled by islam
b) do NOT want to pay a tax and
c) DO speak out against islam

be put to death?

it would seem to me that islamic law would need to kill those that refuse to be ruled by it and those that speak out against it to protect the muslim faith.

What should I do if I don’t want to be ruled by the government of the place I live? I live in the USA, so democracy. What should I do if I don’t want to be ruled by democracy? What should I do if I don’t want to pay American taxes?

The answer is pretty simple, and more helpful to your question.

 

[inJESUS]

What should I do if I don’t want to be ruled by the government of the place I live? I live in the USA, so democracy. What should I do if I don’t want to be ruled by democracy? What should I do if I don’t want to pay American taxes?

The answer is pretty simple, and more helpful to your question.

well that hapened in my country…we refused and we got too many martyrs…and those who were not killed and refused the himiliation in the name of “love” sought refuge in the caves and our churches in mountain caves bear witness…are you implyig we should either leave our own country or be humiliated or killed?

 

[Sister_Amy]

well that hapened in my country…we refused and we got too many martyrs…and those who were not killed and refused the himiliation in the name of “love” sought refuge in the caves and our churches in mountain caves bear witness…are you implyig we should either leave our own country or be humiliated or killed?

Put yourself in my shoes, and answer the question from the point of view in which I framed it.

 

[inJESUS]

Put yourself in my shoes, and answer the question from the point of view in which I framed it.

your comparision is totally flawed Amy so i cannot put myself in your shoes.

I gave a historical reality, something that happened, not a hypothetically flawed comparison so what do you suggest we should have done : submit with humiliation, get killed or leave our own country?

 

[Sister_Amy]

It is a physical reality that anyone might end up living under a government they dislike. Persecution is worse than killing, says the Qur’an.

Indeed, those whom the angels take [in death] while wronging themselves - [the angels] will say, “In what [condition] were you?” They will say, “We were oppressed in the land.” The angels will say, “Was not the earth of Allah spacious [enough] for you to emigrate therein?” For those, their refuge is Hell - and evil it is as a destination.

Except for the oppressed among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan nor are they directed to a way -

For those it is expected that Allah will pardon them, and Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving.

And whoever emigrates for the cause of Allah will find on the earth many [alternative] locations and abundance. And whoever leaves his home as an emigrant to Allah and His Messenger and then death overtakes him - his reward has already become incumbent upon Allah . And Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.

 

[inJESUS]

So you are basically asking people to leave their country just because peaceful Muslims want to conquer their land and either kill them or humiliate them? yea so what go find somewhere else to live because we want so?

 

[inJESUS]

and Amy is a “moderate” Muslim.

I believe she just proved how even a moderate Muslim is ideologically dangerous because it is Islam’s ideology no matter the Muslims’ degrees of moderation.

You don’t like to be ruled by Muslims? you don’t want to be humiliated or killed? then leave you country in the name of brotherly love and find yourself another place.

Amy, with all sincerity, why don’t *you *leave your country and stick to SA or any other Muslim country instead of troubling other lands in the name of Muhammad’s ideologies ? and maybe advise all other Muslims as well? honestly…