Catholics accepting the good in protestantism

[fhansen]

That is totally false. Whoever tells you these things is an anti-Catholic. Jesus Christ left us a gift, a gift of the Holy Mass and as a Catholic, I am priviledged to attend this beautiful service as often as I want. You have it all wrong. The Catholic Mass is very Holy as Jesus was. Better than going to some Assembly Hall and hooting and hollering, we meditate on Christ and we pray.
We receive Jesus Body and Blood and we hear the Gospel.

I’ve heard what you have to say and there are things for me to consider in it. But I’m not addressing Catholics who take their faith seriously. I’m addressing lukewarm cafeteria Catholics-who I meet many of-and I’m suggesting that we can explore ways to express the community aspect of our faith better.

 

[fhansen]

When discussing the sacraments I am not talking of “heritage”. Christ called to these seven sacraments to bring us closer to God, especially in the Eucharist. If you as a Catholic do not realize the closeness involved in the sacraments then you have been greatly misled in education.

The “heritage” I was speaking of were things like our saints, who you referred to -never our sacraments.

 

[guanophore]

If Catholics are accepting the good in protestantism, then those catholics are an abomination alongside the protestants IMHO.

Well, you opinion is in no way humble! In fact, you are blatantly contradicting what your own catechism teaches! The HS does work good in these ecclesiastical communities, so you have basically called the HS an abomination!

Protestantism has interpreted the bible with varying weights and with varying measures. Take it for what it is worth.

This is true, but scripture says that the weight and the measure is what is abominable (method), not the persons using it. Most Protestants don’t even know what they are Protesting, and should not be held guilty for the sins of their ancestors.

 

[donmaximuso27]

The “heritage” I was speaking of were things like our saints, who you referred to -never our sacraments.

Again, even their works are not just “heritage.” They have continued and enlightened a 2000 year history of tradition and mysticism that is still present today. The Catholic Church in no way emphasizes the horizontal relationship more then the vertical. This is simply a false accusation. As a former Lutheran, I can personally say that nothing provides more of a mystical, direct relationship with God then the CC.

 

[trustinyou]

Hi,

I would like to discuss with you all how we as the Catholic Church can accept what is good and true from protestant traditions.

After all, they are truly baptized christians and also, because of that, they have received the Holy Spirit. Of course, all of this comes from the Catholic Church: all the good that we find in other communities.

They may not believe in all the truth(s)
but they certainly help bring repentant souls to Christ.

 

[O.S.Luke]

I’ve occasionally noticed that some Catholics are no better than Protestants when it comes to “selectively” believing what they want and ignoring those things that they don’t want to acknowledge, such as Jon pointed out to Righteousone’s post:

We already are, according to the Catholic Church. See vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html
Righteousone;3559038:

Maybe one day we will become brothers and sisters in Christ, but I just can’t see it happening now.

We are brothers and sisters in Christ, Righteousone. The Catholic Church says so. Even if you don’t like it, you gotta believe it. That is, if you’re Catholic.

O+

 

[fhansen]

Again, even their works are not just “heritage.” They have continued and enlightened a 2000 year history of tradition and mysticism that is still present today. The Catholic Church in no way emphasizes the horizontal relationship more then the vertical. This is simply a false accusation. As a former Lutheran, I can personally say that nothing provides more of a mystical, direct relationship with God then the CC.

OK, you’re right, the word heritage is an awful word to use for the rich legacy-is that term ok?- of our Catholic past. The awesome contributions of our ancestors who helped bring me back to the true faith. The saints and mystics and Augustine and Aquinas and the reams of conciliar documents-so many of which I’ve read-along with encyclicals and ecclesiastical histories and theology, etc. I’ve let them all down and I’ll go to reconciliation this week and confess my use of the word heritage.

 

[ralphinal]

I find lots of good things in most Non-catholic groups. I must say “most” because there are always the Branch Davidians, etc., who are “Christian.” As I have stated before, if the only way for you to have a relationship with Jesus is as a {insert denomination here}, then by all means be a {insert denomination here}. Just do not close your heart and mind if called another way by the Holy Spirit.

As for welcoming others at Mass, my parish has welcome gift bags for visitors, including hand-made rosaries. We have folks at the door to say hello. I must admit that I am considered one of the more stand-offish people there. I am not at mass to meet anyone, catch up with anyone, or be welcoming. I try not to speak to anyone inside of the Church. I have offended family before with my attitude. The fact is that I am not at Church for any reason other than Jesus. Were Jesus not there, I would not be either. I will gladly partake in fellowship after or before, but not during. There are a good number of Catholics with similar attitudes. We tend to get labled as rude because we pray in the Church before mass instead of talking. Or we want to sit quietly and contemplate things instead of discussing the ball game or some such. More people should understand that once in the area reserved for worship, our minds should go to God. Likewise, we should also understand that outside of that area, we should be kind and welcoming to each other.

 

[chris_molter]

I’d like to humbly suggest in the spirit of fraternal love by virtue of our Christian baptisms that we not allow this thread to be de-railed into debate regarding doctrine and/or praxis. There are infinite threads out there for such a purpose and I think if we stick to the topic perhaps something good can come of it. :banghead:

Nothing good can come of turning it into another round of standard issue web apologetics.:knight2:

(and yes, I went overboard with the animated smileys. So sue me.)

 

[chris_molter]

As for welcoming others at Mass, my parish has welcome gift bags for visitors, including hand-made rosaries. We have folks at the door to say hello. I must admit that I am considered one of the more stand-offish people there. I am not at mass to meet anyone, catch up with anyone, or be welcoming. I try not to speak to anyone inside of the Church. I have offended family before with my attitude. The fact is that I am not at Church for any reason other than Jesus. Were Jesus not there, I would not be either. I will gladly partake in fellowship after or before, but not during. There are a good number of Catholics with similar attitudes. We tend to get labled as rude because we pray in the Church before mass instead of talking. Or we want to sit quietly and contemplate things instead of discussing the ball game or some such. More people should understand that once in the area reserved for worship, our minds should go to God. Likewise, we should also understand that outside of that area, we should be kind and welcoming to each other.

I’m THRILLED that your parish does that! That’s what I’m TALKIN ABOUT! I also agree with you regarding talking in the sanctuary. Once you enter, it’s time for the Mass and not fellowship (vertical vs horizontal). I certainly wouldn’t want the Holy Mass to become even less solemn than it already often is by MORE talking, chatting, hugging, etc. I’m actually more of a ‘trad’ worship kinda guy, although not an exclusive TLM person. However, having some kind of after-Mass fellowship would be a great thing if possible. I’ve never seen it, though.

 

[ralphinal]

I’m THRILLED that your parish does that! That’s what I’m TALKIN ABOUT! I also agree with you regarding talking in the sanctuary. Once you enter, it’s time for the Mass and not fellowship (vertical vs horizontal). I certainly wouldn’t want the Holy Mass to become even less solemn than it already often is by MORE talking, chatting, hugging, etc. I’m actually more of a ‘trad’ worship kinda guy, although not an exclusive TLM person. However, having some kind of after-Mass fellowship would be a great thing if possible. I’ve never seen it, though.

After the 8:15 mass and before CCD starts, we have coffee and doughnuts provided in the parish hall.

 

[donmaximuso27]

OK, you’re right, the word heritage is an awful word to use for the rich legacy-is that term ok?- of our Catholic past. The awesome contributions of our ancestors who helped bring me back to the true faith. The saints and mystics and Augustine and Aquinas and the reams of conciliar documents-so many of which I’ve read-along with encyclicals and ecclesiastical histories and theology, etc. I’ve let them all down and I’ll go to reconciliation this week and confess my use of the word heritage.

Wow, quite necessary sacarsm. They are of course part of our heritage, I was simply emphazing the fact that they are more then just that, which you obviously already know. However, I simply cannot accept the notion that we as Catholics put less emphasis on a vertical relationship. The concept of focusing on solely the horizontal relationship was done away with back in the counter-reformation. I do not see this as a problem today though, in the majority of Catholics I know.

 

[donmaximuso27]

I’d like to humbly suggest in the spirit of fraternal love by virtue of our Christian baptisms that we not allow this thread to be de-railed into debate regarding doctrine and/or praxis. There are infinite threads out there for such a purpose and I think if we stick to the topic perhaps something good can come of it. :banghead:

Nothing good can come of turning it into another round of standard issue web apologetics.:knight2:

(and yes, I went overboard with the animated smileys. So sue me.)

There is no way of debating on what “good things” in Protestantism Catholics should accept, unless we go into discussions on doctrinal and theological issues. That is the point of the thread.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not clear on what the issue is here. Of course Catholics should respect Protestants and love their neighbor. However, some, including myself, percieved the title of the thread to mean that we should accept and respect Protestant doctrine and theology. That is indeed an abomination. As a former Lutheran, I can admit that there is some truth theologically speaking, such as Luther’s Augustinian view on predestination, as well as a very similiar liturgy to that of the Catholic Church, at least in traditional services. However, should we as Catholics respect completely false and heretical doctrines, such as cosubstantiation, sola scriptura, the removal of the sacraments of reconciliation, holy orders, and anoiting of the sick, as well as his rejection of apostolic succession and the Chair of St. Peter? Absolutely not! The list of heretical Protestant docrine goes on and on, I won’t even bother listing all of it. We should of course treat our neighbors, regardless of faith, as we would want them to treat us. However, regarding doctrine and theology, that tolerance simply cannot be allowed. The Catholic Church is the truth, and is the only Church founded by Christ; this truth must be made known and Catholics must defend their faith.

I think it would help you to read the catechism on this. It is wrong to hold most modern day Protestants accountable for the sin of heresy. In order to be classified as a heretic, one must have embraced the truth, then willfully left it. Most Protestants today have never known any different theology. This is as much a failure of Catholic evangelism than anything else!

 

[donmaximuso27]

I think it would help you to read the catechism on this. It is wrong to hold most modern day Protestants accountable for the sin of heresy. In order to be classified as a heretic, one must have embraced the truth, then willfully left it. Most Protestants today have never known any different theology. This is as much a failure of Catholic evangelism than anything else!

I am well aware of invincible ignorance and what defines an individual as a heretic. Whether or not a Protestant fits the classifications you listed for being a heretic, their theology is nevertheless heretical. Many Protestants are not heretics, trust me, I would know, but that does not eliminate the fact that their theology is heretical. You can follow heretical doctrine without being a heretic, such as in invicible ignorance, when one hasn’t embraced the truth and willfully left it. However, we as Catholics still must defend our faith against their doctrines and spread our truths to the world. And you should definitely not put all the blame on failed Catholic evangelism. Catholics have conducted more missionaries and evangelism then any other faith in world history. Many Protestants are stuck in their ways and because of invincible ignorance they will never know the truth. But, to blame this on Catholic evangelism is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[manualman]

If Catholics are accepting the good in protestantism, then those catholics are an abomination alongside the protestants IMHO.

Ah good, I get to be consistent! I often used to give my evangelical friends a friendly poke when they got themselves into silly anti-catholic propaganda like Chick tracts and such. (Pope is the anitchrist, Catholic Rome is Babylon, etc…) Its been so long that I can’t remember the actual verse reference, but I asked them if there was such a thing as an ‘unforgiveable sin.’ Of course, they said no. I then opened up the bible and showed them clearly where Jesus spoke of the unforgiveable sin. The Pharisees and Sadducees saw and heard Jesus and the unmistakeable presence of God within him and hardened their hearts and convinced themselves that he was the Devil instead. It isn’t so much that the SIN is unforgiveable. It is just when you are so hardened that you perceive the presence of GOD and convince yourself that he is the Devil, you have become devoid of the capacity for love.

Seems it isn’t just protestants who need to beware the unforgiveable sin. Our God is a God of both perfect reason AND infinite love. None of us can match him in resolving apparent conflicts between the two. While I could sit here and write pages on the defects of protestant theology, it is just plain ignorant or worse to deny the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the hearts and lives of a HUGE number of protestants all around us. Unforgiveable, really.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Well, you opinion is in no way humble! In fact, you are blatantly contradicting what your own catechism teaches! The HS does work good in these ecclesiastical communities, so you have basically called the HS an abomination!

**Really? A Protestant hands you a plate of 12 cookies and you know that one cookie in the bunch is laced with cyanide. Do you reject the whole plate or do you accept the whole plate? Be mindful that the expection of the Protestant for you to either eat all the cookies yourself or share the cookies with your brethren. **

---

What do you do?

This is true, but scripture says that the weight and the measure is what is abominable (method), not the persons using it. Most Protestants don’t even know what they are Protesting, and should not be held guilty for the sins of their ancestors.

**Only time will tell whether they are held guilty for the sins of their ancestors. Some protestants trust in God to do the right thing when it comes to a person that has died and was not baptized and had not reached the age of reason to make the choice. Do you wish to apply this same mentality to those that don’t know what they are doing? **

 

[JoeyWarren]

it is just plain ignorant or worse to deny the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the hearts and lives of a HUGE number of protestants all around us. Unforgiveable, really.

Does God allow the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and still allow the person to be blinded by Protestant truth? Or is this Indweling of the Holy Spirit nothing more than emotionalism interpreted as something it is not?

 

[manualman]

Does God allow the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and still allow the person to be blinded by Protestant truth? Or is this Indweling of the Holy Spirit nothing more than emotionalism interpreted as something it is not?

Get out there, meet some, pray and come back and let us know.

P.S. Have fun with this one: Your post above implicitly implies that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit makes one infallibly able to discern right from wrong doctrine. You DO see the irony, right?

Hint: We CATHOLICS are the ones that hold that Christ left us a reliable teaching authority in the Church so that we could know truth from error. A guy named Luther came up with your approach!

As catholics, we believe they became christians through baptism, which means they received the Holy Spirit. That’s not just me talking, it’s doctrine. So clearly the HS does not guarantee right doctrinal understanding. Thus from the catholic viewpoint, there is no reason to suspect the authenticity of one’s faith merely because he holds to some erroneous ideas that may/may not be his own fault. I’d simply eat the non-poisonous cookies and have a friendly discussion about why I’d NOT eat the bad one.

Its a good analogy though because they ARE out there offering it to other people. But in catholic thought, the ends don’t justify the means. You can’t demonize whole groups of people because they unintentionally spread error. It is counter-productive.

 

[MRStep]

I can’t read through the replies… I get too sad sometimes… but let me just make a reply that captures the heart of how we should approach all peoples, especially in regard to religious beliefs.

Vatican II Document: NOSTRA AETATE – Pope Paul VI
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

…

**No foundation therefore remains for any theory or practice that leads to discrimination between man and man or people and people, so far as their human dignity and the rights flowing from it are concerned.

The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to “maintain good fellowship among the nations” (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.(15)**