Catholics accepting the good in protestantism

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P.S. Have fun with this one: Your post above implicitly implies that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit makes one infallibly able to discern right from wrong doctrine. You DO see the irony, right? 👍
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Yes, I see the Irony of it. These that claim to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit make the claim that the same said Holy Spirit is providing them with the correct interpretation. They are claiming to be infallible but will not call it that as such. These same said individuals are claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit in determining the correct context and interpretation of Scripture, so it goes back to the plate of cookies, accept the whole plate at face failure or reject the whole plate face value? Have you yet to understand what I am driving at?
 
MRStep said:
I can’t read through the replies… I get too sad sometimes… but let me just make a reply that captures the heart of how we should approach all peoples, especially in regard to religious beliefs.

Vatican II Document: NOSTRA AETATE – Pope Paul VI
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

…

**No foundation therefore remains for any theory or practice that leads to discrimination between man and man or people and people, so far as their human dignity and the rights flowing from it are concerned.

The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to “maintain good fellowship among the nations” (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.(15)**
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This really proves nothing. Nobody here is saying we shouldn’t love our Protestant neighbors and should discriminate against them for their beliefs. However, while we should, as Vatican II stated, recognize the truth in other religions, it is just as important, even more important, to recognize where they fell off track with the absolute truth of faith and morals that is the Catholic Church. There is only one church founded by Christ and protected by the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church. While we should recognize the truths in Protestantism and share fellowship with them, we more importantly need to evangelize and teach the abosolute truths of the Church! That is our purpose! This objective cannot be left behind when we share love and fellowship with our Protestant neighbors.
 
I’d simply eat the non-poisonous cookies and have a friendly discussion about why I’d NOT eat the bad one.
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**The problem comes into play when the Catholic is ignorant and therefore has no knowledge which is cookie contains the cyanide. Tis better to err on the side of caution? Worst case scenario? 11 cookies contain cyanide out of the twelve. **
**Satan believes in God and Jesus, but that does not make Satan right.
**
 
donmaximuso27 said:
Wow, quite necessary sacarsm. They are of course part of our heritage, I was simply emphazing the fact that they are more then just that, which you obviously already know. However, I simply cannot accept the notion that we as Catholics put less emphasis on a vertical relationship. The concept of focusing on solely the horizontal relationship was done away with back in the counter-reformation. I do not see this as a problem today though, in the majority of Catholics I know.
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I apologize. I had vowed not to do that in the forums. It just seems to me that where we are often lacking is in the closeness with each other. It’s easier to be standoffish in a Catholic Church than in the Protestant Churches that I used to attend because it seems that some of those churches have regarded this as an important issue and addressed it, whether appropriately or not. I think the community aspect and love between each other was more evident in the early Church as well. I do think we’re addressing it better now -maybe I’m just impatient. I’d also like to see more interest in learning to grow in faith. I’ve been involved in the education aspect of the Church in one way or the other for quite some time but most adults don’t seem to be so interested in seeking God beyond what they figure they already know. For me this is about “extracurricular” stuff mainly-not about the Mass except where we’re not taking it seriously enough. I continue to value the contributions of Protestants in various ways-Lewis and Chesterton are authors who come to mind who may not have become Catholic until recently but nonetheless loved God and helped others, including solid Catholics I know, find good reasons for their faith and love for God. They sought truth and understanding and God gave them the grace to find it. I agree that Catholic thinkers have gone much deeper in theological understanding then your average Evangelical and that there’s probably nothing to compare our mystics to in Protestantism but in any case I don’t think we should dismiss them as the enemy or totally beyond reach-even those who think we’re the Anti-Christ- and that’s not the Church’s approach today either-and probably not yours. My prayer is for unity- without compromising the faith. And I’m disturbed by the division within the Church for that matter over what we’ll choose to believe or not believe. The Protestant groups I associated with were very conservative in their beliefs-adamant about holding to basic “fundamentals” whereas I’m often amazed at how far a person can get from basic Catholic dogma and still consider themselves to be Catholic. I’ve always wanted people to simply know more deeply and with greater certainty the reality and love of God-you’re already there. Anyway, only the Catholic Church has it all and has Gods’ promise to keep it that way but that doesn’t mean that we’ve always done everything perfectly and shouldn’t continue to strive for reform and ways to improve at getting our mesage out. That’s my take on it. Maybe I’m wrong. Sorry again for the sarcasm.
 
fhansen said:
I apologize. I had vowed not to do that in the forums. It just seems to me that where we are often lacking is in the closeness with each other. It’s easier to be standoffish in a Catholic Church than in the Protestant Churches that I used to attend because it seems that some of those churches have regarded this as an important issue and addressed it, whether appropriately or not. I think the community aspect and love between each other was more evident in the early Church as well. I do think we’re addressing it better now -maybe I’m just impatient. I’d also like to see more interest in learning to grow in faith. I’ve been involved in the education aspect of the Church in one way or the other for quite some time but most adults don’t seem to be so interested in seeking God beyond what they figure they already know. For me this is about “extracurricular” stuff mainly-not about the Mass except where we’re not taking it seriously enough. I continue to value the contributions of Protestants in various ways-Lewis and Chesterton are authors who come to mind who may not have become Catholic until recently but nonetheless loved God and helped others, including solid Catholics I know, find good reasons for their faith and love for God. They sought truth and understanding and God gave them the grace to find it. I agree that Catholic thinkers have gone much deeper in theological understanding then your average Evangelical and that there’s probably nothing to compare our mystics to in Protestantism but in any case I don’t think we should dismiss them as the enemy or totally beyond reach-even those who think we’re the Anti-Christ- and that’s not the Church’s approach today either-and probably not yours. My prayer is for unity- without compromising the faith. And I’m disturbed by the division within the Church for that matter over what we’ll choose to believe or not believe. The Protestant groups I associated with were very conservative in their beliefs-adamant about holding to basic “fundamentals” whereas I’m often amazed at how far a person can get from basic Catholic dogma and still consider themselves to be Catholic. I’ve always wanted people to simply know more deeply and with greater certainty the reality and love of God-you’re already there. Anyway, only the Catholic Church has it all and has Gods’ promise to keep it that way but that doesn’t mean that we’ve always done everything perfectly and shouldn’t continue to strive for reform and ways to improve at getting our mesage out. That’s my take on it. Maybe I’m wrong. Sorry again for the sarcasm.
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No problem, it is difficult to refrain from such things in forums. I agree with most of what you said. When I go to mass every Sunday there are many people who leave right after communion, eager to get out of the crowded parking lot, instead of practicing the virtue of patience. In my former Lutheran church, the fellowship was great. We had coffee fellowships after service and many education classes. On top of that, almost every member knew who every other member was, unless they whisped away after communion. In these ways I definitely admire the Protestants, for most are very welcoming and have great fellowship. As for improving in getting our message out, that is most definitely a great need in the Church. Many great saints spent their lifetime here on earth evangelizing pagans, Protestants, atheists, etc. I would agree that this could be somewhat improved in the Church.
 
Flame_of_Christ said:
I would like to discuss with you all how we as the Catholic Church can accept what is good and true from protestant traditions.
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Thinking about this topic always makes me sad. God wants all Christians to be united in His Church. Any gifts present in Protestant churches are meant to be used to build up His universal Church. The different charisms of Protestant communities are meant to be diversity within a united church. Many of those charisms are already part of the diversity of Christ’s Church.
chris_molter said:
I’ll tell you one thing that Protestants do better than Catholics (generally speaking).

Welcoming outsiders/visitors into their churches.
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I prefer, personally, a more low-key welcoming. At almost every parish I have been to, the priest greets people on their way out of Mass. They have the coffee and doughnuts. These things are not unusual, and I really enjoy them.

I have on a limited number of occasions attended a Protestant church service. At one in particular, everyone in the church wanted to greet me and ask me a lot of personal questions I generally do not discuss with strangers. I found the experience uncomfortable and for me it built up a false intimacy that I felt was inappropriate for my 10 minute relationship with these, albeit very nice, people.
 
ElizabethAnne said:
I found the experience uncomfortable and for me it built up a false intimacy that I felt was inappropriate for my 10 minute relationship with these, albeit very nice, people.
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its like everyone is trying to sell you a vacuum cleaner. 😃
 
skatepixie said:
Everything good in protestantism came from the Catholic Church. Yes, there is good in their faith, there is truth in their faith…and that truth comes from the Church. What is there to discuss?
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Well said. Although as a former Baptist I can say that generally speaking, many Protestants know their Bible much better than Catholics do. Of course that is because of Protestants’ backwards thinking, e. g., The Bible defines God, rather than God defining the Bible.
 
JoeyWarren said:
**The problem comes into play when the Catholic is ignorant and therefore has no knowledge which is cookie contains the cyanide. Tis better to err on the side of caution? Worst case scenario? 11 cookies contain cyanide out of the twelve. **

Satan believes in God and Jesus, but that does not make Satan right.
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Which is why Scripture describes a healthy christian community as being like “iron sharpening iron.” We’d better get busy and USE the reliable teaching given to us by Christ in his Church so we know which ONE cookie to eat and which eleven to leave on the plate. Then the bonds built eating the one cookie together can be built apon to convince our brothers to throw aways the poisoned ones! Shunning them and refusing even the tasty cookie only serves to pointlessly reinforce their incorrect beliefs.

You are quite correct that there are lots of catholics ignorant of their faith out there. But that’s hardly the Protestant’s fault!
 
manualman said:
Which is why Scripture describes a healthy christian community as being like “iron sharpening iron.” We’d better get busy and USE the reliable teaching given to us by Christ in his Church so we know which ONE cookie to eat and which eleven to leave on the plate. Then the bonds built eating the one cookie together can be built apon to convince our brothers to throw aways the poisoned ones! Shunning them and refusing even the tasty cookie only serves to pointlessly reinforce their incorrect beliefs.

You are quite correct that there are lots of catholics ignorant of their faith out there. But that’s hardly the Protestant’s fault!
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I will cede to what you have said. I will only add that there are Predator Protestants here on this forum who are aggressively offering that plate and they are targeting the ignorant of our faith. At least you will cede that?
 
Agreed.

And not just here, but everywhere! Try not to resent them though. They honestly think they are doing the right thing. You can’t combat that with hostility. When you can answer them with Scripture, Tradition and charity they often get charmingly flummoxed. 😃
 
manualman said:
Ah good, I get to be consistent! I often used to give my evangelical friends a friendly poke when they got themselves into silly anti-catholic propaganda like Chick tracts and such. (Pope is the anitchrist, Catholic Rome is Babylon, etc…) Its been so long that I can’t remember the actual verse reference, but I asked them if there was such a thing as an ‘unforgiveable sin.’ Of course, they said no. I then opened up the bible and showed them clearly where Jesus spoke of the unforgiveable sin. The Pharisees and Sadducees saw and heard Jesus and the unmistakeable presence of God within him and hardened their hearts and convinced themselves that he was the Devil instead. It isn’t so much that the SIN is unforgiveable. It is just when you are so hardened that you perceive the presence of GOD and convince yourself that he is the Devil, you have become devoid of the capacity for love.

Seems it isn’t just protestants who need to beware the unforgiveable sin. Our God is a God of both perfect reason AND infinite love. None of us can match him in resolving apparent conflicts between the two. While I could sit here and write pages on the defects of protestant theology, it is just plain ignorant or worse to deny the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the hearts and lives of a HUGE number of protestants all around us. Unforgiveable, really.
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This was a good post; and I would say, reflecting of the opions of well-meaning Catholics everywhere.

I would add that such sentiments about “accepting the good in Protestantism;” is really not all there is to the story, for there is a purpose behind everything. The purpose in “accepting” this good, only leads to one thing; not ecumenism; but submission to the Pope, and to Catholic doctrine.
 
Protestant101 said:
I would add that such sentiments about “accepting the good in Protestantism;” is really not all there is to the story, for there is a purpose behind everything. The purpose in “accepting” this good, only leads to one thing; not ecumenism; but submission to the Pope, and to Catholic doctrine.
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How does “accepting the good in protestantism” lead to submission to the Pope? 🤷
 
Protestant101 said:
This was a good post; and I would say, reflecting of the opions of well-meaning Catholics everywhere.

I would add that such sentiments about “accepting the good in Protestantism;” is really not all there is to the story, for there is a purpose behind everything. The purpose in “accepting” this good, only leads to one thing; not ecumenism; but submission to the Pope, and to Catholic doctrine.
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You make it sound so sinister! 😃

Look, it is a risk for both of us to stop the demonizing and polemics of the last 500 years and warmly examine what we have in common and charitably understand where we differ. The pope and the Vatican II bishops quite simply BELIEVE in catholic doctrine and believe that when ALL misunderstanding and ill will is removed, that conviction will become clear to others through the work of God in the hearts of men. Fulton Sheen used to say that millions of people hate what they mistakenly believe to be the Catholic Church, but only a handful truly hate her for what she REALLY is.

From either perspective, it is a valid point. If God is on our side, there is no need to worry about the other guy getting the upper hand in honest, sincere, reasoned and prayerful dialogue.
 
JoeyWarren said:
**The problem comes into play when the Catholic is ignorant and therefore has no knowledge which is cookie contains the cyanide. Tis better to err on the side of caution? Worst case scenario? 11 cookies contain cyanide out of the twelve. **
**Satan believes in God and Jesus, but that does not make Satan right.
**
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You take the cookies to your portable poison testing kit (in theological terms that’d be the CCC and suchlike) to figure out which have the cyanide and which don’t. Then you can eat the cookie or cookies that are unpoisoned to your heart’s content.
 
manualman said:
You make it sound so sinister! 😃

Look, it is a risk for both of us to stop the demonizing and polemics of the last 500 years and warmly examine what we have in common and charitably understand where we differ. The pope and the Vatican II bishops quite simply BELIEVE in catholic doctrine and believe that when ALL misunderstanding and ill will is removed, that conviction will become clear to others through the work of God in the hearts of men. Fulton Sheen used to say that millions of people hate what they mistakenly believe to be the Catholic Church, but only a handful truly hate her for what she REALLY is.

From either perspective, it is a valid point. If God is on our side, there is no need to worry about the other guy getting the upper hand in honest, sincere, reasoned and prayerful dialogue.
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Manualman! Well said!!!👍
With the guidance of the Holy Spirit and good will on all our parts, I truly believe that our differences can be overcome, and not in the sense that one submits to the other. I believe the HS can move our hearts to find the words and expressions to bring us together in true unity. And at that point, it won’t matter to me if the Bishop of Rome is leading.

Jon
 
manualman said:
You make it sound so sinister! 😃

Look, it is a risk for both of us to stop the demonizing and polemics of the last 500 years and warmly examine what we have in common and charitably understand where we differ. The pope and the Vatican II bishops quite simply BELIEVE in catholic doctrine and believe that when ALL misunderstanding and ill will is removed, that conviction will become clear to others through the work of God in the hearts of men. Fulton Sheen used to say that millions of people hate what they mistakenly believe to be the Catholic Church, but only a handful truly hate her for what she REALLY is.

From either perspective, it is a valid point. If God is on our side, there is no need to worry about the other guy getting the upper hand in honest, sincere, reasoned and prayerful dialogue.
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But many churches and religions do this “warmly examining” business; under the guise of “acceptance” and “unity;” when all they are trying to do is to find a way to convince their "subject/s to submit to their beliefs. It is not hard to see how that when Catholic leadership speaks of “unity;” and “seeing the good” that they are merely palliating the tension that results from conflicting theologies, and promoting in one degree or another, submission to the Pope, and Catholic doctrine. All Catholic efforts at “ecumenism” are in fact efforts to gain submission.
 
Protestant101 said:
But many churches and religions do this “warmly examining” business; under the guise of “acceptance” and “unity;” when all they are trying to do is to find a way to convince their "subject/s to submit to their beliefs. It is not hard to see how that when Catholic leadership speaks of “unity;” and “seeing the good” that they are merely palliating the tension that results from conflicting theologies, and promoting in one degree or another, submission to the Pope, and Catholic doctrine. All Catholic efforts at “ecumenism” are in fact efforts to gain submission.
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But don’t you think that’s the case with every system of belief?
 
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