Catholics accused of worshiping Mary

[E.E.N.S]

Karin:

Yes we have covered that ground…I do know the difference between honor and worship. I also understand why you HONOR her…the issue that Della’s post has brought up now is you guys talk to dead people? Let me throw in here…I understand that truly we only know (IMHO) that God & Mary are in Heaven …how can you assume any of these other Saints are there, isnt that another big assumption?

The Church goes through an arduous process (which for the moment I will not get into), but without a shadow of a doubt, when She (the Church) cannonizes a saint, we know that person is in heaven.

Those in heaven (saints) are more alive than you or I…they are not dead.

 

[Orionthehunter]

E.E.N.S.:

On what grounds can you say that the Catholic Church teaches Marian worship??

I think that Catholics need to understand that to people raised in a Protestant faith where they don’t kneel in their Church and may not kneel even at home when they pray, it can look like worship when we are on our knees saying a rosary before a statue of the Blessed Mother. Our challenge as Catholics is to patiently explain that our veneration of Mary is a sign of great respect of her as the greatest Disciple of Christ and our prayers to Mary are sometimes we are begging for her intercession to Christ from her position as the Queen of Heaven, sometimes it is expressing her gratitude for her witness and sacrifice, and sometimes it is a means that we are having a dialogue with this great Disciple as we reflect on her life and example.

 

[Brendan]

ARE YOU TRYING TO CONFUSE ME MORE???

No?

Did you read the rest of my post?

Or look up the verb ‘to pray’ in the dictionary

Main Entry: pray
Pronunciation: 'prA
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frAgEn to ask, Sanskrit prcchati he asks
transitive senses
1 : **ENTREAT, IMPLORE – often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea **
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive senses
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Given that, why would anyone think that ‘prayer’ is ‘worship’

If you have ever asked anyone anything is a humble manner, you have, by definition, prayed to that person

 

[Lance]

Della:

Hi! I’m not Lance, obviously, but I think I can help you with your questions, as Lance will no doubt do, too.

Thanks Della, I am not sure I can explain it any clearer than you did. To clear up a question Karin asked, we don’t talk to dead people, we talk to living souls.

 

[deb1]

Karin:
No, we do not pray to dead people. As I said before, Saints are more alive then we are.

Among some Protestants there is a belief that the dead either sleep until judgement or are unaware of what happens on earth. Catholics do not believe this. We believe that Mary and the saints are aware of what occurs here on earth and still care.

Sorry to mistake you for muslim. I made that assumption simply because you mentioned the Islam forum.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Karin:

…the issue that Della’s post has brought up now is you guys talk to dead people?

The saints are part of the Body of Christ.
We are not talking to dead people. We are tlaking about people alive in Christ.
To be a member of the Body of Christ is to participate in Christ’s divine nature.
We don’t talk to dead people. We join in the prayer of the Body of Christ. This is a mystical reality, not some symbolism.
We are trully united to Christ, both those on earth and those in heaven.

Therefore, we join our prayers to those in heaven. Catholics know, when we pray to a saints who the object of our prayer is. It is to Christ in union with those in Heaven.
You may not understand what Catholics do, but we understand to whom the prayer is directed.

 

[Dan-Man916]

These verses demonstrate that asking a saint to pray for us is biblical and is a part of the Apostolic faith:

Jer 15:1; Acts 12:5; Rom 15:30;

2Cor 13:7; Eph 6:18; Col 4:3 1Thess 5:25;

2Thess 3:1; Heb 13:18; Jas 5:16 Tobit 12:12;

2Mac 15:14; Rev 5:8; 8:3-4, Heb 7:25, Rev 14:4

the Saints are members of the Body of Christ who are intimately united with Christ and continue to participate in His work of redemption.

 

[deb1]

Yes we do pray to Mary!!

You’ve falling into the same pit Protestants do (and these Musilims as well); you are confusing prayer with worship.

The verb “to pray” means to ask, to implore, to humbly request. The root word is the Latin precari , to ask or implore

People pray to each other all the time, for example, my son prayed to me the other night. He prayed that I would let him stay up late.

In Hamlet, Queen Gertrude prayed to Hamlet " I pray thee, go not to Whittenburg"

Was my son worshipping me when he prayed to me? Was Gertrude worshipping Hamlet?

NO

To Pray to does NOT equal To Worship. When a person asks their pastor (or imam) to pray for them, that very act, by definition is a prayer. They are praying to their pastor or imam.

To Pray and To Worship are two completely different verbs that mean different things.

I do understand that the word pray can mean to simply ask or implore but I also understood that Karin was not using the word in that definition. In my original post, I started to explain to her the different meanings of the word prayer but I didn’t want to confuse her, so I erased that portion of my answer. I wasn’t falling into any trap that protestants or muslims make, I was simply not answering the question in a way that would confuse her.

Karin, the word pray can mean to ask. PErhaps this will make it easier for you. Have you ever listened to anyone on television trying to speak old english. The peasant asking for a piece of bread might say…I Pray thee my Lord for a piece of bread. In this instance pray means to simply ask.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Here is what the Catechism explains:

956 The intercession of the saints. Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness… They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus…So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.

957 Communion with the saints. “It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself”:
We worship Christ as God’s Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord’s disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciple

 

[Brendan]

deb1:

I do understand that the word pray can mean to simply ask or implore but I also understood that Karin was not using the word in that definition. In my original post, I started to explain to her the different meanings of the word prayer but I didn’t want to confuse her, so I erased that portion of my answer.

OK Deb,

But I usually find that the root of these arguments is the very misunderstanding of the word ‘to pray’ that Karin mentioned.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Orionthehunter:

I think that Catholics need to understand that to people raised in a Protestant faith where they don’t kneel in their Church and may not kneel even at home when they pray, it can look like worship when we are on our knees saying a rosary before a statue of the Blessed Mother. Our challenge as Catholics is to patiently explain that our veneration of Mary is a sign of great respect of her as the greatest Disciple of Christ and our prayers to Mary are sometimes we are begging for her intercession to Christ from her position as the Queen of Heaven, sometimes it is expressing her gratitude for her witness and sacrifice, and sometimes it is a means that we are having a dialogue with this great Disciple as we reflect on her life and example.

I wholeheartedly agree…my impatience was due to the fact that this HAS been patiently explained to Karin yet she has persisted in stating that Catholics worship Mary and the saints.

I need to work on my charity in these types of situations.

 

[deb1]

Brendan:

OK Deb,

But I usually find that the root of these arguments is the very misunderstanding of the word ‘to pray’ that Karin mentioned.

I understand.

 

[deb1]

E.E.N.S.:

I wholeheartedly agree…my impatience was due to the fact that this HAS been patiently explained to Karin yet she has persisted in stating that Catholics worship Mary and the saints.

I need to work on my charity in these types of situations.

Coming from a Protestant background myself, I can assure you that Mary and the Saints are a very hard item for most nonCatholics to grasp. SOmetimes they aren’t purposely being dense just that they are being exposed to a whole new method of seeing things. This can be very confusing.

 

[jimmy]

I don’t think you will see any muslims in the apologetics forum, so why not have a thread like this in the muslim forum?

 

[E.E.N.S]

deb1:

Coming from a Protestant background myself, I can assure you that Mary and the Saints are a very hard item for most nonCatholics to grasp. SOmetimes they aren’t purposely being dense just that they are being exposed to a whole new method of seeing things. This can be very confusing.

I come from a protestant background myself (I was baptised into the Catholic Church April 15, 2001), so one would think that I would understand these types of situations better - however, I didn’t struggle so much with Mary and the saints.

None the less, I should work on my charity.

 

[Orionthehunter]

E.E.N.S.:

I come from a protestant background myself (I was baptised into the Catholic Church April 15, 2001), so one would think that I would understand these types of situations better - however, I didn’t struggle so much with Mary and the saints.

None the less, I should work on my charity.

Don’t beat yourself up too much EENS. Us cradle CAtholics are reminded probably too often that converts are sometimes the most zealous!

 

[E.E.N.S]

Orionthehunter:

Don’t beat yourself up too much EENS. Us cradle CAtholics are reminded probably too often that converts are sometimes the most zealous!

It’s a lot different in person…maybe because I can’t fully interact with the person, so I get frustrated when I “debate” online.

 

[Karin]

I think the problem is as Deb1 & Brendan have stated my definition of words is different than yours…sorry about that. Thank you all the past few examples have been helpful. EENS…dont get fustrated…I am one of those people that unfortunatly can not take all things on faith…I need and require proof.
I am not Protestant either by the way.

 

[ChristianWAB]

E.E.N.S.:

The 4th commandment says we are to honor our parents. We do not worship our parents. There is a difference.

Maybe you haven’t heard this before, but:

latria = worship due to God alone.
dulia = honor [due to saints].
hyperdulia = highest honor due a human [Mary].

I see this issue come up quite frequently and, in my humble opinion, it all boils down to how Catholics APPEAR to “honor” Mary and the Saints.

You don’t consider them deities, yet you offer prayers to them for intercession. You don’t practice idolatry, yet you adorn churches with statues to which Catholics often bow before and even KNEEL before.

Is one unable to “honor” a saint or the mother of Jesus in their heart, without outward signs for others to see? I honor mother Mary in my heart. I don’t say the Hail Mary, because I reserve my prayers for God. I respect the lives that the saints lived and try to emulate them in my Christian living, yet I offer no prayers to them. I don’t bow or kneel before statues that are said to depict these saints.

There’s a passage of the Bible (1 Thessalonians 5:22) that says that we are to,… “Abstain from all APPEARANCE of evil.” (Caps mine). Personally, I don’t see the harm in having Catholic Churches give outward evidence that they don’t worship Mary or the saints by removing the graven images and praying to our sole Mediator, Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5).

I don’t honestly think that God-followers such as Mary or the saints would mind us keeping our focus on God as well, and… Catholics would have one less thing to have to constantly justify explain to the people. Am I being too idealistic or is this a reasonable request?

 

[E.E.N.S]

Karin:

EENS…dont get fustrated…I am one of those people that unfortunatly can not take all things on faith…I need and require proof.

No problem.

Try not to rely ONLY on proofs however, remember did not PROVE that He was God (however He did give reason to believe.)

Christ did tell us to have faith like a child, but there are many things that lend credibility for the many truths of our Faith.

If everything were proved to us, we would not need faith at all. (Also remember, “blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes…”)