Catholics accused of worshiping Mary

[Della]

ChristianWAB: I see this issue come up quite frequently and, in my humble opinion, it all boils down to how Catholics APPEAR to “honor” Mary and the Saints.

That’s right. It all boils down to how you, with your misunderstanding of Catholic teaching and practice and through the lense of your particular brand (whichever it may be of the 30,000 sects) of Protestantism, see what Catholics are doing.

You don’t consider them deities, yet you offer prayers to them for intercession. You don’t practice idolatry, yet you adorn churches with statues to which Catholics often bow before and even KNEEL before.

We don’t offer SACRIFICE to the saints, which is what worship is, not merely kneeling before a statue or a living person. And images are NOT automatically idols. They are images of persons who actually lived not of minor deities made up out of the imaginations of people as they did in ancient times as they do in such religions as Hinduism.

Is one unable to “honor” a saint or the mother of Jesus in their heart, without outward signs for others to see? I honor mother Mary in my heart. I don’t say the Hail Mary, because I reserve my prayers for God. I respect the lives that the saints lived and try to emulate them in my Christian living, yet I offer no prayers to them. I don’t bow or kneel before statues that are said to depict these saints.

Well, you can honor anyone with an outward sign and not be committing idolatry. We litter our parks with statues of generals on horses but you don’t consider that idolatry. And offering prayers is merely asking for help, not worshiping which requires sacrifice not merely saying words.

There’s a passage of the Bible (1 Thessalonians 5:22) that says that we are to,… “Abstain from all APPEARANCE of evil.” (Caps mine). Personally, I don’t see the harm in having Catholic Churches give outward evidence that they don’t worship Mary or the saints by removing the graven images and praying to our sole Mediator, Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5).

Jesus is the sole mediator of our redemption, but he is not the sole mediator of any prayers whatsoever. If he was, you wouldn’t be able to offer any prayers for anyone. Think about it sensibly. And images are NOT idols just because they are carved. God ordered angels to be carved for the ark, but they weren’t idols and no one offered them any sacrifices. Worship is offering sacrifice, not merely kneeling in front of statues.

I don’t honestly think that God-followers such as Mary or the saints would mind us keeping our focus on God as well, and… Catholics would have one less thing to have to constantly justify explain to the people. Am I being too idealistic or is this a reasonable request?

You’ve got it all backwards. We Catholics don’t have to justify our practices to you. You have to obligation to try to understand why we do what we do before jumping to erroneous conclusions and accusing us falsely of doing what we most emphatically are NOT doing. Chew on that bit of information, dear fellow follower of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[E.E.N.S]

ChristianWAB:

I see this issue come up quite frequently and, in my humble opinion, it all boils down to how Catholics APPEAR to “honor” Mary and the Saints.

You don’t consider them deities, yet you offer prayers to them for intercession. You don’t practice idolatry, yet you adorn churches with statues to which Catholics often bow before and even KNEEL before.

Asking for intercession is not worship (though I know you know this)…and when a person is kneeling and praying before a statue of a saint, they are reflecting on how that person lived their lives totally devoted to God, asking for intercession to do the same - live totally for God.

ChristianWAB:
Is one unable to “honor” a saint or the mother of Jesus in their heart, without outward signs for others to see?
Yes, and we do this constantly. Is it wrong to show outward signs? I don’t only honor my mother in my heart, but I do outward signs all the time (hug, smile, etc.)

ChristianWAB:
I honor mother Mary in my heart. I don’t say the Hail Mary, because I reserve my prayers for God.
That is fine. Though realize that the “Hail Mary” is straight from the Bible and it is Christ centered and asking for her intercession (usually dwelling on Christ’s life and how we can conform to it.)

ChristianWAB:
I respect the lives that the saints lived and try to emulate them in my Christian living, yet I offer no prayers to them. I don’t bow or kneel before statues that are said to depict these saints.

That’s good as well. We don’t “offer prayers” to them them in and of themselves, we are again reflecting and asking for intercession.

ChristianWAB:
There’s a passage of the Bible (1 Thessalonians 5:22) that says that we are to,… “Abstain from all APPEARANCE of evil.” (Caps mine). Personally, I don’t see the harm in having Catholic Churches give outward evidence that they don’t worship Mary or the saints by removing the graven images and praying to our sole Mediator, Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5).

These things lift my heart to the kingdom of heaven, they aren’t “evil appearances.” Seeing these God loving saints (in their beautiful art as well), and reflecting on there lives and there advice on how to live a truly Christian life should give encouragement to all Christians…in fact, that is the main reason there is such artwork, to remind us who we are, and how we are called to live. (Another note: a picture of your friend is just as much a graven image as a picture of a saint.)

ChristianWAB:
I don’t honestly think that God-followers such as Mary or the saints would mind us keeping our focus on God as well, and… Catholics would have one less thing to have to constantly justify explain to the people. Am I being too idealistic or is this a reasonable request?

The focus IS on God! The saints all point to just that! And as for having one less thing to have to constantly justify, well, then we might as well get rid of it all together, because we are constantly justifying everything, even Christ Himself, amongst the other faiths of the world and even the world itself. (I am sure that you see this is not an option for anyone who calls himself a Christian.

 

[NonDenom]

I see this issue come up quite frequently and, in my humble opinion, it all boils down to how Catholics APPEAR to “honor”

Mary and the Saints.

You don’t consider them deities, yet you offer prayers to them for intercession. You don’t practice idolatry, yet you adorn churches with statues to which Catholics often bow before and even KNEEL before.

Is one unable to “honor” a saint or the mother of Jesus in their heart, without outward signs for others to see? I honor mother Mary in my heart. I don’t say the Hail Mary, because I reserve my prayers for God. I respect the lives that the saints lived and try to emulate them in my Christian living, yet I offer no prayers to them. I don’t bow or kneel before statues that are said to depict these saints.

There’s a passage of the Bible (1 Thessalonians 5:22) that says that we are to,… “Abstain from all APPEARANCE of evil.” (Caps mine). Personally, I don’t see the harm in having Catholic Churches give outward evidence that they don’t worship Mary or the saints by removing the graven images and praying to our sole Mediator, Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5).

I don’t honestly think that God-followers such as Mary or the saints would mind us keeping our focus on God as well, and… Catholics would have one less thing to have to constantly justify explain to the people. Am I being too idealistic or is this a reasonable request?

Hi All
This is a very good responce to the question. When someone sees you bowing down before a statue, they think that you are worshipping that statue or who it represents, and you can’t blame them. I have been told that Prots must worship their pew, because they kneel before the pew. There is a major difference here, we arent praying to the pew, we are praying to GOD. I still can’t understand why you would need to pray to anyone other than God himself. It almost sounds like you think that God is to busy and he needs a secretary.
Thanks

 

[Karin]

NonDenom:

. It almost sounds like you think that God is to busy and he needs a secretary.
Thanks

Yes…that is what I dont understand…kind of how I view it also.
Why ask for the Saints and Mary to intercede for you in the first place…wont God help you with out their help?
EENS…NO HEAD BANGING!!!

 

[Della]

NonDenom:

Hi All
This is a very good responce to the question. When someone sees you bowing down before a statue, they think that you are worshipping that statue or who it represents, and you can’t blame them. I have been told that Prots must worship their pew, because they kneel before the pew. There is a major difference here, we arent praying to the pew, we are praying to GOD. I still can’t understand why you would need to pray to anyone other than God himself. It almost sounds like you think that God is to busy and he needs a secretary.
Thanks

Okay, to you from your vantage point and lack of knowledge about what consistutes worship, you think you are correct. But, you simply aren’t. Kneeling and praying is NOT worship to Catholics and never has been. Offering the one sacrifice of Christ IS worship to Catholics and always has been. Statues are reminders of the persons they represent, and we see no reason why we can’t ask those in heaven to intercede for us any more than we can’t ask a fellow Christian to pray for us. What, should we all give up praying for one another because God can hear the prayers of the person needing prayer just as much as he can hear ours? Really, if you want to understand these things you have to stop assuming you know what Catholics believe and do. All you have to do is look it up in the Catechism of the Catholic Church if you truly do want to understand these things.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Karin:

Yes…that is what I dont understand…kind of how I view it also.
Why ask for the Saints and Mary to intercede for you in the first place…wont God help you with out their help?
EENS…NO HEAD BANGING!!!

LOL…that’s what I was thinking!

Really though, there’s more depth and love than many people realize. The saints are lights along the path, and we ask them to pray for us in relative situations and circumstances. Posts on the internet from relatively un-educated, un-saintly people is not going to do a whole lot…but we all try, don’t we? You for your side, me for mine (Catholic side ).

I like to reflect on how a sinner like myself has made it through this life…it is easier to relate to (sometimes even talk to) a person who was a sinner like ourself (many times even find a saint who had our same vocation in life), and ask them to interceed for us to help us be faithful to Christ like they were through out there life. Take St. Augustine for example. He was one of the biggest sinners, he broker every rule in the book, but yet he also came to be one of the greatest saints of all time, and even a Doctor of the Church (only 33 in 2000 years, that’s pretty good to say the least!)

We should all try, as brothers and sisters in Christ to give each other the benefit of the doubt when we are explaining our faith to each other, I don’t think anyone here is a Christian soley for “bad” purposes.

There are good, holy reasons why we pray with/to/whatever the saints - and nothing to do at all with idolitry or worship [of Mary/saints] - they are our brothers and sisters in Christ that have gone before us, living heroic, virtuous lives that we can try to emmulate (and ask for their help), ((and they are more alive, and know Our Lord MUCH better than we do.))

I appologize for any lack in charity that I sometimes show, and I want us all to be united in Christ (as Our Lord Himself prayed for), just not at the expense of Truth, for Christ Himself is that Truth.

Peace.

 

[Brendan]

ChristianWAB:

…, because I reserve my prayers for God.

Really CWAB,

You mean you’ve never asked anybody but God anything at all? Not for directions, not to pass the salt? Nothing
, I find that really difficult to believe.

After all, we DID cover the meaning of the verb “to pray” in this thread already

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=991729&postcount=23

 

[deb1]

NonDenom:

Hi All
This is a very good responce to the question. When someone sees you bowing down before a statue, they think that you are worshipping that statue or who it represents, and you can’t blame them. I have been told that Prots must worship their pew, because they kneel before the pew. There is a major difference here, we arent praying to the pew, we are praying to GOD. I still can’t understand why you would need to pray to anyone other than God himself. It almost sounds like you think that God is to busy and he needs a secretary.
Thanks

It has been explained that we do not pray to saints in the sense that you are mentioning.

Have you never asked a godly person to pray for you? If so, why did you do so? COuldn’t you take your prayers directly to GOd? Do you ever pray for family members? Please stop doing that now. If it is wrong to ask another-a saint in heaven- to pray for you then it is wrong for you to pray for your children, your parents, your siblings or your spouse.

As far as God needing a secretary, we do not believe that the saints sort prayers, only that they pray for us.

Part of your statement makes it seem as though you are more concerned with how Catholics appear then how you yourself appear. For example you criticize us because modern western culture might mistake kneeling before a saint to be worship. But you brush off the suggestion that someone might mistake your kneeling by a pew to be pew worship.

 

[Karin]

E.E.N.S.:

LOL…that’s what I was thinking!

Really though, there’s more depth and love than many people realize. The saints are lights along the path, and we ask them to pray for us in relative situations and circumstances. Posts on the internet from relatively un-educated, un-saintly people is not going to do a whole lot…but we all try, don’t we? You for your side, me for mine (Catholic side ).

I like to reflect on how a sinner like myself has made it through this life…it is easier to relate to (sometimes even talk to) a person who was a sinner like ourself (many times even find a saint who had our same vocation in life), and ask them to interceed for us to help us be faithful to Christ like they were through out there life. Take St. Augustine for example. He was one of the biggest sinners, he broker every rule in the book, but yet he also came to be one of the greatest saints of all time, and even a Doctor of the Church (only 33 in 2000 years, that’s pretty good to say the least!)

We should all try, as brothers and sisters in Christ to give each other the benefit of the doubt when we are explaining our faith to each other, I don’t think anyone here is a Christian soley for “bad” purposes.

There are good, holy reasons why we pray with/to/whatever the saints - and nothing to do at all with idolitry or worship [of Mary/saints] - they are our brothers and sisters in Christ that have gone before us, living heroic, virtuous lives that we can try to emmulate (and ask for their help), ((and they are more alive, and know Our Lord MUCH better than we do.))

I appologize for any lack in charity that I sometimes show, and I want us all to be united in Christ (as Our Lord Himself prayed for), just not at the expense of Truth, for Christ Himself is that Truth.

Peace.

Thank you! Between you and Deb1 and Della and a select few others you may totally convince me here…the explanations keep getting better and better as we go on!!!

 

[E.E.N.S]

Another thing that I want to point out is that there have been people on earth who have done miracles for us (think of the saints Peter and Paul for example), and they can surely do the same now that they are with Christ more perfectly now than ever…(many miracles have been documented from the saints even after they pass from this world to the next, in fact that is part of the requirement for their cannonization.)

Whatever miracles are done through a saint, whether here on earth or in heaven, are done by God, but God uses men to acomplish His will.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Karin:

Thank you! Between you and Deb1 and Della and a select few others you may totally convince me here…the explanations keep getting better and better as we go on!!!

You are more than welcome!

 

[deb1]

Karin:

Thank you! Between you and Deb1 and Della and a select few others you may totally convince me here…the explanations keep getting better and better as we go on!!!

:dancing: :dancing: :dancing:

 

[ChristianWAB]

Della:

That’s right. It all boils down to how you, with your misunderstanding of Catholic teaching and practice and through the lense of your particular brand (whichever it may be of the 30,000 sects) of Protestantism, see what Catholics are doing… You’ve got it all backwards. We Catholics don’t have to justify our practices to you. You have to obligation to try to understand why we do what we do before jumping to erroneous conclusions and accusing us falsely of doing what we most emphatically are NOT doing. Chew on that bit of information, dear fellow follower of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

I can definitely sense a tone of hostility and sarcasm in your response, which only puzzles me because the ideas I posed weren’t at all hostile and, if implemented, would at least minify the amount of questions that come in regarding what is often referred to as “Marian” worship.

Be that as it may, I’ll overlook your caustic tone to say a couple of things:

1.) I am, in fact, NOT a Protestant. If these “conclusions” are so erroneous, why do so many MILLIONS of people come to the same ones? If all Catholic practices truly ARE innocuous, why is there such GLOBAL confusion? And why does it take so many complex and elaborate explanations to explain away so many practices that, on the surface, seem to contradict many of God’s laws?

2.) You say that Catholics don’t have to justify their practices to me. I would agree with that IF Catholics didn’t claim that theirs is the* “true Church of Christ.”* If you make a claim THAT huge, then, yeah… I DO believe you have to justify their practices. The onus falls upon the “in-the-know” Catholic to educate people. For a church and its members to truly CARE about the souls of the perceived “lost,” elucidating the truth is a daily task in which ALL Catholics should participate.

If you’re on this forum AND in the Apologetics section, you must (at least to SOME degree) agree with this, even if your responses are, for want of a better term, a little less than friendly.

 

[deb1]

ChristianWAB:

There’s a passage of the Bible (1 Thessalonians 5:22) that says that we are to,… “Abstain from all APPEARANCE of evil.” (Caps mine). Personally, I don’t see the harm in having Catholic Churches give outward evidence that they don’t worship Mary or the saints by removing the graven images and praying to our sole Mediator, Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5).

I don’t honestly think that God-followers such as Mary or the saints would mind us keeping our focus on God as well, and… Catholics would have one less thing to have to constantly justify explain to the people. Am I being too idealistic or is this a reasonable request?

As a person in the process of converting myself, one of the aspects of Catholisim that has struck me is the fact that the Catholic church has its own culture. I am greatly impressed by the solemness of mass, the respectfulness of kneeling and bowing.

I think that most people would hesitate to criticize the Japanese for bowing to their elders. Few would insist that Japenese people change their entire culture to suit modern western culture. It would be xenophobic to do so.

The same respect should be given to Catholics and our traditions. Why should we have to surrender two milleniums of tradition and practices to suit a few modern Protestants?

Now as far as graven images goes…I would trust that you read the bible. Have you gotten to first Kings chapter six yet? When decorating the temple, SOlomon builds two fifteen feet high winged creatures and covers them with Gold. He placed these cherub in the inner room of the temple. Surely if God had a dislike of statues in the church then he would not have approved of such art work. Besides, our Catholic churches are beautiful. I have no desire to worship in a spartan enviroment.

 

[deb1]

ChristianWAB:

I

1.) I am, in fact, NOT a Protestant. If these “conclusions” are so erroneous, why do so many MILLIONS of people come to the same ones? If all Catholic practices truly ARE innocuous, why is there such GLOBAL confusion? And why does it take so many complex and elaborate explanations to explain away so many practices that, on the surface, seem to contradict many of God’s laws?

You are overestimating the confusion as to Marian worship. I think that it is only some that are confused. Most people are willing to accept our explanations as to our beliefs.

As far as complex arguements, I haven’t read any complex arguements. I think that we have been pretty straight forward with you. Many of the posts are simply rehashes or are further expounding on the original few explanations in this thread. We are simply trying to explain the same things in different ways.

I am also uncertain how Catholic practices contradict God’s laws. What specific laws are we contradicting?

 

[On_my_way]

Non-denom and ChristianWAB, I think you guys don’t know the difference between honor and worship. Non-denom I think I mentioned this to you before but since you must of forgot then here it goes again. Maybe I need to say it again for the people in the cheap seats that did not hear it before.

When I go to my TKD school to train. I bow to pay respect to the Korean Flag, because that’s where TKD came from. I also bow at my Master and any other person who is in my class out of respect. Now according you both it would be considered worship. How is that so? I know who God is. All i’m doing is paying respect and showing them the honor that they deserve. The same thing that we Catholics do with Mary. How is bowing to someone other than God himself Worship. Asking Mary to pray for us and our loved ones, how is that Worship?

Placing Stautes of Saints in the Church does not mean we are idolizing that Saint instead of Jesus himself. Stautes are reminders of how we should live our lives. I wish I could live my life as well as these Saints lived theirs. Anyone who has adopted and/or married someone who has kids should love as St. Joseph had loved. St. Joseph knew that Jesus was not his son but loved him like He (jesus) was his own.

By the way if I place a picture of my wife and kids on my desk at work next to a picture of Jesus, do I worship my wife and kids over Jesus? No I don’t.
The funny thing is with all this accusations of Worship of Idols by Catholics, these people do the same thing at Christmas. These very same people who accuse Catholics of Idolatry, still put up nativity sets at Christmas time. Funny how one is considered worship and the other is not.

ChristianWAB, since you used a passege from the Bible for your defense, maybe I’ll use a couple from which God told Moses to make statues. Maybe you should read EX 25:18-19 and Num 21:8. So if God told Moses to make Statues for specific reasons and not for worship, why is it worship when Catholics put statues of the patron saint in their Church?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

ChristianWAB and Karin;

Perhaps I can try to respond to your concerns in a different way.

Catholics say it is okay to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us since we are all part of the communion of saints. Most Protestants say “no” to this even though many of them recite the Apostles Creed… thus they profess to believe in the communion of saints but don’t correctly understand what this means.

The “communion of saints” refers to the bond of unity among all believers, whether on earth, or in heaven, who are committed followers of Christ. In Christ we are made part of God’s family (1 Tim 3:15), children of God (1 Jn. 3:1), joint heirs with Christ (Rom 8:17), and partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4). This communion of saints is known to Catholics as the Mystical Body of Christ. (1 Cor. 10:16; Gal 3:28; Eph 1:22-23, 4:4, 4:15-16, 5:21-32; and Col 1:18, 3:15.) Thus, we are joined in a supernatural union as members of Christ’s own body, and thus as members of one another. Each of us participates in the divine life of Christ Himself.

Consider the image of the vine and branches that Jesus talked about in Jn 15:1-5. Because we, as branches, are connected to Christ the vine, we are also connected to each other through Christ. It is the life and grace of Jesus that gives us life and unites us in our common pilgrimage to heaven.

St. Paul emphasizes this unity in Christ’s body in 1 Cor 12:12-27…

[14] For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
[15] If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.
[16] And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.
[17] If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
[18] But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
[19] If all were a single organ, where would the body be?
[20] As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
[21] The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
[22] On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable,
[23] and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
[24] which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part,
[25] that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
[26] If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
[27] Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

…and in Rom 12:4-16.

[4] For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,
[5] so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another…
…[16] Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly; never be conceited.

These are the biblical reasons underpinning the communion of saints - the Mystical Body of Christ - that provide the reason why Catholics ask the members of the body to which we belong to act and intercede on our behalf. In short…

(1) All Christians are members of Christ’s body and one another (Rom 12:5, etc.)
(2) Jesus has only one body (Eph 4:4, Col 3:15
(3) Death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rom 8:35-39); and
(4) Christians are bound in mutual love (Rom 12:10; Thess 5:11; Gal 6:2)

In that union of one body in Christ, that reaches from earth into heaven, we Catholics call for help and support from our older brothers and sisters who have already “won the race” just as in our human families we turn to our siblings for aid. It’s not a matter of thinking that the Father is not available, nor is it a matter of worshipping other than God. Indeed, it is a reaffirmation of the divine Christ that permits us to ask our brothers and sisters “in Christ” for their intercessions. Prayer to saints is a recognition of the unity of all Christians in the body of Christ - the one mediator - connected to and sharing in His divinity just as the branches are part of the vine.

 

[Karin]

On my way:

Non-denom and ChristianWAB, I think you guys don’t know the difference between honor and worship. Non-denom I think I mentioned this to you before but since you must of forgot then here it goes again. Maybe I need to say it again for the people in the cheap seats that did not hear it before.

When I go to my TKD school to train. I bow to pay respect to the Korean Flag, because that’s where TKD came from. I also bow at my Master and any other person who is in my class out of respect. Now according you both it would be considered worship. How is that so? I know who God is. All i’m doing is paying respect and showing them the honor that they deserve. The same thing that we Catholics do with Mary. How is bowing to someone other than God himself Worship. Asking Mary to pray for us and our loved ones, how is that Worship?

Placing Stautes of Saints in the Church does not mean we are idolizing that Saint instead of Jesus himself. Stautes are reminders of how we should live our lives. I wish I could live my life as well as these Saints lived theirs. Anyone who has adopted and/or married someone who has kids should love as St. Joseph had loved. St. Joseph knew that Jesus was not his son but loved him like He (jesus) was his own.

By the way if I place a picture of my wife and kids on my desk at work next to a picture of Jesus, do I worship my wife and kids over Jesus? No I don’t.
The funny thing is with all this accusations of Worship of Idols by Catholics, these people do the same thing at Christmas. These very same people who accuse Catholics of Idolatry, still put up nativity sets at Christmas time. Funny how one is considered worship and the other is not.

ChristianWAB, since you used a passege from the Bible for your defense, maybe I’ll use a couple from which God told Moses to make statues. Maybe you should read EX 25:18-19 and Num 21:8. So if God told Moses to make Statues for specific reasons and not for worship, why is it worship when Catholics put statues of the patron saint in their Church?

Thank you well written!

 

[Karin]

Robert in SD:

ChristianWAB and Karin;

Perhaps I can try to respond to your concerns in a different way.

Catholics say it is okay to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us since we are all part of the communion of saints. Most Protestants say “no” to this even though many of them recite the Apostles Creed… thus they profess to believe in the communion of saints but don’t correctly understand what this means.

The “communion of saints” refers to the bond of unity among all believers, whether on earth, or in heaven, who are committed followers of Christ. In Christ we are made part of God’s family (1 Tim 3:15), children of God (1 Jn. 3:1), joint heirs with Christ (Rom 8:17), and partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4). This communion of saints is known to Catholics as the Mystical Body of Christ. (1 Cor. 10:16; Gal 3:28; Eph 1:22-23, 4:4, 4:15-16, 5:21-32; and Col 1:18, 3:15.) Thus, we are joined in a supernatural union as members of Christ’s own body, and thus as members of one another. Each of us participates in the divine life of Christ Himself.

Consider the image of the vine and branches that Jesus talked about in Jn 15:1-5. Because we, as branches, are connected to Christ the vine, we are also connected to each other through Christ. It is the life and grace of Jesus that gives us life and unites us in our common pilgrimage to heaven.

St. Paul emphasizes this unity in Christ’s body in 1 Cor 12:12-27…
…and in Rom 12:4-16.
These are the biblical reasons underpinning the communion of saints - the Mystical Body of Christ - that provide the reason why Catholics ask the members of the body to which we belong to act and intercede on our behalf. In short…

(1) All Christians are members of Christ’s body and one another (Rom 12:5, etc.)
(2) Jesus has only one body (Eph 4:4, Col 3:15
(3) Death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rom 8:35-39); and
(4) Christians are bound in mutual love (Rom 12:10; Thess 5:11; Gal 6:2)

In that union of one body in Christ, that reaches from earth into heaven, we Catholics call for help and support from our older brothers and sisters who have already “won the race” just as in our human families we turn to our siblings for aid. It’s not a matter of thinking that the Father is not available, nor is it a matter of worshipping other than God. Indeed, it is a reaffirmation of the divine Christ that permits us to ask our brothers and sisters “in Christ” for their intercessions. Prayer to saints is a recognition of the unity of all Christians in the body of Christ - the one mediator - connected to and sharing in His divinity just as the branches are part of the vine.

Making more and more sense…espcially how you explained the COmmunion of Saints …thank you!!!

 

[Della]

I can definitely sense a tone of hostility and sarcasm in your response, which only puzzles me because the ideas I posed weren’t at all hostile and, if implemented, would at least minify the amount of questions that come in regarding what is often referred to as “Marian” worship.

Be that as it may, I’ll overlook your caustic tone to say a couple of things:

Your post was less than understanding, you know. Accusing Catholics of appearances of sin, idolatry, and Mary worship. Whether you intended it or not, your questions were of the “how many times a day do you beat your wife” variety that get wearisome to read.

1.) I am, in fact, NOT a Protestant. If these “conclusions” are so erroneous, why do so many MILLIONS of people come to the same ones? If all Catholic practices truly ARE innocuous, why is there such GLOBAL confusion? And why does it take so many complex and elaborate explanations to explain away so many practices that, on the surface, seem to contradict many of God’s laws?

You are apparently unaware of the simple fact that 3/4 of the world’s Christians believe as we Catholics do about these issues, including the Orthodox, Coptic, and others. And in the USA, the Catholic Church is the largest denomination. We outnumber people who think like you 4 to 1. So, why don’t you believe what 3/4 of the world’s Christians believe? And, life is complex, so why should it be any surprise that understanding God’s laws and what they really mean wouldn’t be? God never promised to be as clear as crystal to the casual seeker into truth.

2.) You say that Catholics don’t have to justify their practices to me. I would agree with that IF Catholics didn’t claim that theirs is the “true Church of Christ.” If you make a claim THAT huge, then, yeah… I DO believe you have to justify their practices. The onus falls upon the “in-the-know” Catholic to educate people. For a church and its members to truly CARE about the souls of the perceived “lost,” elucidating the truth is a daily task in which ALL Catholics should participate.

We have done so over and over again in this forum and elsewhere. The answers are readily available, as I already stated, for anyone who is truly interested in knowing the truth instead of continuing to pass on false information about the Catholic faith.

If you’re on this forum AND in the Apologetics section, you must (at least to SOME degree) agree with this, even if your responses are, for want of a better term, a little less than friendly.

No, I most certainly don’t admit to the notion that we Catholics have to “defend” the teachings of the Church to anyone. We do take up the challenge of explaining them to honest inquirers. As for offending you, I didn’t intend to do so, but to get you to see that your position isn’t automatically correct just because you hold it. If I did offend you, I do apologize.