Catholics accused of worshiping Mary

[ChristianWAB]

deb1:

The second part of the Hail Mary is this:

**Holy Mary, Mother of God- **Mary is the Mother of God, so this is simply her title.

**Pray for us sinners-**I think that this proves our point. We are asking Mary to pray for us, not praying to her.

Now and at the hour of our death- I don’t think that there is a more appropriate time for us to ask someone to pray for us. Do you?

As far as having a clearer conscious, you are not in any of our minds, so how do you know who has a clearer conscious?

Should Japense people not bow to the elderly or young men get down on one knee because a few mistaken souls could misinterprete what is happening?

Trust me when I say that I know the Hail Mary by heart and, though I’m tempted to talk about the prayer, my fear is that I’ll be reprimanded for not starting a new thread, so I’ll respectfully decline.

As for my conscience, it is just that… MY conscience. I never even hinted that I could delve into the conscience of another person, so I’m not entirely sure what you’re gettin’ at there.

Neither the Japanese bowing custom nor the marrying man down on one knee thing are directly related to Catholicism, so they’re not really relevant to the issue at hand.

 

[Knight4God]

I think it would be helpful we developed a common definition of “to worship” and “to honor”. Until the boundaries on these words are defined both Protestants and Catholics are going to talk past each other.

I believe that Catholics legitimately believe that they are not degrading God and worshiping a creature and do not intend to. And the Protestants legitimately believe that the words and actions used to express dulia and hyperdulia are really latria. So if we could beat out a common idea of the difference in each concept that we all agreed on, we would all have the same point to discuss what is “going too far” and what is “not going far enough”.

This should not be based on mere cultural forms alone however, like language or objects such as candles. These are merely outward cultural forms of an intended truth. So I think that with Mary we must acknowledged that when some burn candles to her, it is no more the when Protestants put flowers on the graves of loved ones tombs (showing honor) and for some Catholics is crosses the line into worship. There has to be a definition that takes mostly into account intention and “spirit and truth”, and then we can draw application from different cultural forms.

From a personal Protestant experience:

I attended a Latin Mass once, enjoyed it, it was very reverent. I know some Latin and could follow along. Towards the end when we were all kneeling, we prayed/talked/petitioned/spoke to God, and then almost without skipping a beat my Catholic brethren in Christ (weather we are “separated” or not!). Said the Ave Maria. Semantics aside on “to pray”. It is hard for an outsider to see any difference. So is prayer an act of worship? If not then Catholics have some legitimacy. But if it is then it puts them on shaky ground.

I also see three different issues:

a) whither how Catholics honor Mary crosses some definitional line into worship, and how Protestants treat Mary dishonor her
b) Whither the saints can hear us anyway. i.e. Catholic theology may not be wrong, it may be Protestants are incorrect on how we perceive “worship”, “prayer” and so forth, but Protestants are right that Mary could not hear us, intervene for us anyway. I see these are two different issues.
c) Semantics, which is somewhat irrelevant. Words do have meanings that can change over time and across cultures. They represent a universal truth, but I think we must acknowledge that to some “prayer” really does mean “worship only to God” and to some means “request”. So I can and cannot speak of praying to another human.

 

[Della]

Consecration to Mary

My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession. Amen.

This was the text taken from the link above:

catholic-forum.com/saints/pray0505.htm

Semantics aside, I wonder how God would view this “Consecration.” Sure, any Catholic can say that they don’t “worship” Mary and the Saints, but they will use plenty of other strong words to describe what they do feel is permissible to do, such as “consecration,” “Adoration,” “Devotion,” “Reverence,” etc.

That’s fine to convince fellow Catholics, Protestants and the like. But God’s view of all of this is what’s most important and semantics will not fool Him in the least. He knows your heart. He knows mine. I just hope for the sake of all Catholics that this extensive “adoration” of Mary won’t be viewed by the Almighty as something like misplaced adoration.

“I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.”

Isaiah 42:8 (KJV)​

No one thinks we are going to fool God, for goodness sake! And you are so right that God knows the heart, but you don’t know another’s heart, and neither do I (thanks be to God!). You cannot possibly KNOW what another person means by what they are doing if you don’t know their heart nor the context in which they are doing what they are doing, such as bowing or kneeling or using a certain phrase. You can only judge from your own perspective, which may be quite mistaken.

And we don’t need to be quoted Scripture verses as if they settle the whole matter from your point of view. It doesn’t, you know, because we know that verse every bit as much as you do, but we know what you don’t–the context in which Christianity has viewed that verse from the Apostles on down to our Magisterium today. The Bible is the Church’s book, not yours or mine. You haven’t made any point with that verse except to try to shoot down a very large strawman of your own making.

 

[ChristianWAB]

"…since you used a passege from the Bible for your defense, maybe I’ll use a couple from which God told Moses to make statues. Maybe you should read EX 25:18-19 and Num 21:8. So if God told Moses to make Statues for specific reasons and not for worship, why is it worship when Catholics put statues of the patron saint in their Church?"

I’ve read those bits of scripture and am very familiar with them, but in essence, you just answered your own question… when you said, "…God told Moses to make statues." God directly spoke to Moses and gave him a command. Moses followed it. Would any of us have done differently?

Another often-invoked scripture stems from the aforementioned Numbers 21:8. I also know this one quite well, It says:

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.”

Numbers 21:8​

Again, God made the command. Moses followed it. Yet, if you keep reading, you’ll see the eventual fate of that graven serpent:

“And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.”

2 Kings 18:3-4​

They’d probably argue that burning incense to the serpent wasn’t considered idol worship, yet what was done (destroyed the serpent image, etc) was right in the sight of the LORD. He proceeded to destroy this object of veneration… and that was actually ordered to be created by God. Imagine how God must feel about all of these other statues and images.

 

[GodBlessJoanie]

The one person who doesn’t want us to worship Mary IS MARY!
Blessings,
Joanie

 

[deb1]

ChristianWAB:

Trust me when I say that I know the Hail Mary by heart and, though I’m tempted to talk about the prayer, my fear is that I’ll be reprimanded for not starting a new thread, so I’ll respectfully decline.

**Starting a new theread on this topic would be interesting. So please go ahead and do so. **

---

As for my conscience, it is just that… MY conscience. I never even hinted that I could delve into the conscience of another person, so I’m not entirely sure what you’re gettin’ at there.
.
I assumed that in your quote below that is from a previous post that you were comparing yourself to Catholics. Afterall you use the ending er on clear, which usually indicates a comparision. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

---

I’m not violating any Commandments and I have a clearer conscience. Mary will forever be honored in my heart as an obedient servant of God. The Saints will forever be honored in my heart for their very important contributions to Christianity. Catholics

 

[Sherlock]

ChristianWAB:

My respect for Mary, much like my respect for Abraham, Moses, Daniel, David and countless others, resides within my heart. I don’t pray to Moses. I don’t pray to Abraham. I don’t pray to Mary. I don’t pray to Peter. I don’t pray to Paul. I don’t pray to Thomas. It’s not because I don’t like them or that I think they didn’t live great lives. I would just prefer to pray to God. I know that nobody would is either a Protestant or a Catholic would call me wrong for praying to God, so I go with that. ]

If you prefer to pray to God alone, that’s OK. Personally, I think it’s a bit rejecting of the family of believers (we are a family, not merely individuals. We are supposed to both help and be helped by one another.), but then Americans are used to individualism and it is thought of as a virtue. It is worth pointing out that God Himself is a relationship—the Trinity. Go-it-alone faith might be OK for you, but I just don’t see that modeled anywhere in the Old or New Testaments. But at any rate, if you want to only pray to God, so be it—that’s OK. But many Protestants go further and say that no one should pray to the saints. Their position is that the only correct way is to pray to God alone. That’s where I have problems—we are instructed to pray for each other: how am I supposed to know what to pray for if my neighbor, in need of prayers, doesn’t tell me? But as soon asks me to pray for him, hasn’t he violated that? Some Protestants make it an either/or proposition: praying to a saint means you aren’t praying to God. I’ve always thought this a ludicrous idea, as I’ve never met anyone, Catholic or Protestant, who was so wholly holy that they prayed every single second to God alone, so that any other prayer was a violation of their otherwise total time committed to God.

ChristianWAB:

My Advocate with the Father is my Lord and Savior, Jesus, so Jesus is my Rock. I pray to God in the name of Jesus. By doing this, I not only avoid any hint of breaking the 1st Commandment, but I Time and time again, Catholics on these forums have claimed that they don’t worship Mary and the Saints. Yet, as someone pointed out earlier, there are many prayers out there that paint a clear picture of worship to these figures. ]

If you came across Catholics that said that Mary was God and not a created being, then you’d have a case. But though I’m sure there are a few misguided individuals out there who have some screws loose, I’ve never come across them myself despite years of exposure to Catholics. And treating prayers as theological treatises is problematic: some are simply reflective of the particular period’s literary style (the 18th and 19th centuries, for example, being much more flowery than what we’re used to), and are perhaps thought of as “love letters” to a much-loved person.

Personally, having been a Protestant, I find it’s “me and Jesus” only approach to be rather anti-Scriptural. That is, I see the Christian life, as shown in the Scriptures, to be much more like a family than simply a mass of individuals unrelated to each other, each “doing his own thing”.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

ChristianWAB:

I’ve read those bits of scripture and am very familiar with them, but in essence, you just answered your own question… when you said, "…God told Moses to make statues." God directly spoke to Moses and gave him a command. Moses followed it. Would any of us have done differently?

Another often-invoked scripture stems from the aforementioned Numbers 21:8. I also know this one quite well, It says:

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.”

Numbers 21:8​

Again, God made the command. Moses followed it. Yet, if you keep reading, you’ll see the eventual fate of that graven serpent:

“And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.”

2 Kings 18:3-4​

They’d probably argue that burning incense to the serpent wasn’t considered idol worship, yet what was done (destroyed the serpent image, etc) was right in the sight of the LORD. He proceeded to destroy this object of veneration… and that was actually ordered to be created by God. Imagine how God must feel about all of these other statues and images.

Certainly God wouldn’t ask Moses to sin by asking him to do something that was forbidden. This seems to show clearly that the mere making of statues wasn’t forbidden but the worshipping of them was. The people were not venerating the serpant, they were worshipping it.

In 1 Kings 6 we see Solomon build the temple. In it were graven (carved) images of things on earth (gourds, flowers, palm trees) and in heaven (cherubim). The Lord did not COMMAND Solomon to include these graven images. After the temple, containing these graven images, was finished the Lord came to dwell in it (1 Kings 8:10). The Lord would never have put his stamp of approval on the temple by dwelling in it if he disapproved of the mere making of these graven images. He didn’t. What he disapproved of was the worshipping of graven images as gods.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[silvano]

Karin:

Yes we have covered that ground…I do know the difference between honor and worship. I also understand why you HONOR her…the issue that Della’s post has brought up now is you guys talk to dead people? Let me throw in here…I understand that truly we only know (IMHO) that God & Mary are in Heaven …how can you assume any of these other Saints are there, isnt that another big assumption?

Definitely NOT!!! There are thousands,if not millions of people that have benefited from Saints intercessions,including life threatening diseases that have been miraculously CURED! It was shown on EWTN that a Lutheran Minister,who was about to die in the hospital,received a medal of St Jude and was instantly cured by God,thru the latter’s powerful intercession.This is just a typical example.Many Protestants have received miraculous healing also,from St.Pio’s intercession which was shown on PBS,several years ago.I can go on and on.

 

[rayne89]

ChristianWAB:

Imagine how God must feel about all of these other statues and images.

You mean statues of his beloved mother and those Christians with heroic virtue and those who gave their lives for the faith. Our brothers and sisters in Christ whom we look to for examples of what it means to live the Christian faith with all your being.

These are statues, made of plaster or wood. Or paintings on canvas. They are the reminders of what we should strive to be like. You keep ignoring the fact that we are not worshipping statues or graven images. When those who made the golden calf bowed down before it they believed that golden calf had power of it’s own. That is idolotary.

I imagine God would be very glad that we do not forget those of the body of Christ that have gone before us. He knows what you apparently don’t. Those that follow the Catholic church teaching believe any and every answer to intercessary prayer (such as a cure attributed to St. Jude) comes from God -always. St. Jude is a creature, he has no power of his own. Because of his great faithfulness to God on earth, and the fact that he is now perfected in Christ in Heaven his prayers for anyone who requests them are very powerful. Much more so then a an imperfect creature on this earth who is still capable of sin.

Catholicism is a very ancient and rich faith. It is difficult for those on the outside looking in not to misinterpret what the Catholic faith is about. I walk into my mother-in-laws church (a protestant) and looks and feels no different then then a meeting hall. It is truly hard for me to understand what they consider worshipping God. So I imagine a non-Catholic christian would likewise have difficulty understanding our sense of spitituality.

But it seems to me rediculous that no matter how many times a Catholic will tell you “No we don’t worship Mary or Saints” you as a non-Catholic with a very limited understanding of our faith continuely insist “No you’re wrong you really do worship Mary and the Saints.”

Now I know why we have this emoticon on the forum. :banghead:

 

[Psalm45_9]

shannin:

My answer to that is always the same: “*If we really do worship Mary then why do we deny it?” *Don’t people always

We’ve always been accused of worshiping Her. They don’t understand the difference between Honor and Worship.

But we can build elaborate monuments and statues of our nation’s founding fathers and even name hosptials, schools, and bridges after them; and there’s no problem with that…

 

[cheddarsox]

I think some people deny they worship Mary because they don’t want to believe it is true. They know it is against the teachings of the church, so they call it something other than worship, and justify it to themselves.

The church does not teach that one should worship Mary.

But it takes place. It is an aberation of the Catholic faith, not the Catholic faith itself.

It is perhaps common enough that it should be addressed more forcefully by the church. Not everyone is misunderstanding or imagining that it takes place.

I was a Catholic. I am not talking from a place of misunderstanding or from the outside. While I was part of the church I experienced, witnessed and even took part in some Marian worship.

It is an unfortunate reality.

I regret the pain that it causes for those who have an appropriate devotion to the Mother of Christ.

cheddar

 

[rayne89]

cheddarsox:

I think some people deny they worship Mary because they don’t want to believe it is true. They know it is against the teachings of the church, so they call it something other than worship, and justify it to themselves.

The church does not teach that one should worship Mary.

But it takes place. It is an aberation of the Catholic faith, not the Catholic faith itself.

It is perhaps common enough that it should be addressed more forcefully by the church. Not everyone is misunderstanding or imagining that it takes place.

I was a Catholic. I am not talking from a place of misunderstanding or from the outside. While I was part of the church I experienced, witnessed and even took part in some Marian worship.

It is an unfortunate reality.

I regret the pain that it causes for those who have an appropriate devotion to the Mother of Christ.

cheddar

You took part in Marian worship? What exactly were you doing?

I agree there are probably some people for whatever reason who may go to far (I have not seen it personally) but I did speak of those who follow the teachings of the Church would never do such a thing. And your absolutely right Marian worship is not the teaching of the church.

There are those in the church that deny the Eucharist is the body of Christ, deny the validity of Vatican II -any person can rebel against the church. If someone is worshipping Mary (or anyone or thing else) it is against the teaching of the church.

I am not justifying anything. I have seen others pray the rosary -and I have prayed it myself. This is not Marian worship -we meditate upon the life of Christ as we pray the rosary. I have seen a person light candle in front of our statue a Mary -that is not Marian worship. I have seen a May crowning before -again not Marian worship. Even my 9 year old daughter (who often hears me read things aloud from this forum to my husband) laughs out loud at the idea that we as Catholics worship Mary-or statues. She says emphatically “We worship God, we honor Mary -how come they don’t know that?”

You can only speak from your experience so not assume because you became involved with a heretical group that it’s everywhere and the rest of us are us are just in denial.

 

[Mickey]

cheddarsox:

I think some people deny they worship Mary because they don’t want to believe it is true. They know it is against the teachings of the church, so they call it something other than worship, and justify it to themselves.

Hi cheddarsox!

This is a bold statement unless you claim to know people’s hearts.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

cheddarsox:

I think some people deny they worship Mary because they don’t want to believe it is true. They know it is against the teachings of the church, so they call it something other than worship, and justify it to themselves.

Rather I think they deny it because it really isn’t true.

The church does not teach that one should worship Mary.

But it takes place. It is an aberation of the Catholic faith, not the Catholic faith itself.

Help me understand you here. When you say “it takes place” are you saying that you personally know of people who believe that Mary is a god and they worship her as such? Is it possible, however remotely, that you are misinterpreting what you’re seeing or hearing about; that what you personally and subjectively consider worship really isn’t?

It is perhaps common enough that it should be addressed more forcefully by the church. Not everyone is misunderstanding or imagining that it takes place.

I’m not so sure about that. On what do you base your statement that it’s common?

I was a Catholic. I am not talking from a place of misunderstanding or from the outside. While I was part of the church I experienced, witnessed and even took part in some Marian worship.

You, at one point in your life, sincerely believed that Mary was a god? If, as you stated, the Church doesn’t not teach Mary worship how is it that you found yourself worshipping her?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Singinbeauty]

Psalm45:9:

But we can build elaborate monuments and statues of our nation’s founding fathers and even name hosptials, schools, and bridges after them; and there’s no problem with that…

But see, that is not worship… we don’t pray to these statues or use them as concentration objects when we pray to who they represent. We don’t have songs we specifically sing about them or to them. We don’t bow to them. And we don’t tend to make pilgramages to them. If touched we don’t expect ourselves to be healed either. That is the difference.

 

[Sherlock]

cheddarsox:

I think some people deny they worship Mary because they don’t want to believe it is true. They know it is against the teachings of the church, so they call it something other than worship, and justify it to themselves.

That’s claiming the ability to read people’s minds.

cheddarsox:

The church does not teach that one should worship Mary.
But it takes place. It is an aberation of the Catholic faith, not the Catholic faith itself.
It is perhaps common enough that it should be addressed more forcefully by the church. Not everyone is misunderstanding or imagining that it takes place…

As I’ve mentioned before, there are bound to be a few loose screws in any faith. But—“common”?—I’ve never come across anyone who worshipped Mary. I’ve come across some superstitious beliefs (saying X prayer X times will do X; that sort of thing) in both Catholic and Protestant circles, but I have never come across a single Mary worshipper.

cheddarsox:

I was a Catholic. I am not talking from a place of misunderstanding or from the outside. While I was part of the church I experienced, witnessed and even took part in some Marian worship.
It is an unfortunate reality

You did? Where was this? What did you do? Did you really believe that Mary was a Goddess? Did the other people tell you that Mary was a Goddess? This is odd stuff, to be sure, and I’m curious to know the particulars. As for it being an “unfortunate reality”—well, there are those who believe that aliens abducted them and gave them rectal probes (or worse). That’s an unfortunate reality too—there are nuts out there, and you apparently associated with some. I’m sorry you had that experience, but to be honest, I don’t think it’s common.

 

[Church_Militant]

Singinbeauty:

But see, that is not worship… we don’t pray to these statues or use them as concentration objects when we pray to who they represent. We don’t have songs we specifically sing about them or to them. We don’t bow to them. And we don’t tend to make pilgramages to them. If touched we don’t expect ourselves to be healed either. That is the difference.

Hi SB!
Points that need to be clarified:

1. Catholics do not pray to a statue.
2. There are all kinds of patriotic songs out there…(ever hear “the Battle of New Orleans”? “The Battle Hymn of the Republic”, or “God Save the Queen/ My Country Tis of Thee” Besides…what about all those “love songs” that lovers sometimes call their own or croon to each other?)
3. Bowing…what is the standard position for prayer? Kneeling? Which also happens at n-C altar calls in some of the churches that I’ve been in.
4. Pilgrimages? Again…Americans flock to D.C. and visit all the monuments erected to Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson, and visit their homes.

American of faith attend crusades, seminars, and all kinds of events related to their respective beliefs.

All this for far lesser men than the Blessed Virgin, the most unique human in history.

I know you don’t really understand, but these are just examples that come to mind. To Catholics…it’s all about that great cloud of witnesses…
God bless you!

 

[Knight4God]

I’m beginning to see….

Alright so far, defining worship is being based on outward acts. Some outward acts ae “worship” and others are “honor”. And the lines between the two are different for Protestants and Catholics.

Cultural Forms is the key:

I think this is the issue, putting to much emphasis in one aspect of the cultural dimensions. There are three main dimensions of a culture; a) what is perceivable b) what is organizational and c) what is conceptual.

What is perceivable are the various “forms” and outward aspects of a culture. This would be on the surface and displayed through such things as “shaking hands means I greet you”. This varies from place to place. Like a language, two languages can have similar sounding words and mean two different things, the words themselves are cultural forms used by the culture to express its deeper aspects (the conceivable dimension). Perceivable dimension also includes cultural artifacts (pens, paper, laptops, totem poles) and ceremonies. Also words such as “pray” so We cannot say that when someone uses the word “pray” they mean worship, they can mean whatever they want to mean by it, and it is an accepted concept that the word carries not the idea of worship, but the idea of request.

Therefore by very definition you cannot judge what defines “worship” and “to honor” merely by outward act. We cannot say “singing a song” is universally “worship” (even consistently, do we not sing songs to girlfriends?) Nor can we say that burning a candle to an object is worship by the very act itself. This is an outward expression that means something deeper. The question with this then is what the conceptual meaning behind the act is.

If a Catholic only “looks like they are worshipping” and we have no evidence that they are “in fact worshipping” Then we cannot use their cultural outward forms to make the decision on how far is too far. (i.e. just because you see them burn candles, sing sons, make pilgrimages, ect.)

So in the end, Catholics don’t worship Mary because they say they don’t. The issue for Catholics is to define what exactly on the conceptual level is the difference between honor and worship.

This conversation is just talking past each other, because we are debating the perceivable level, which is highly subjective and not the conceptual level where universal Scriptural norms lie.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Singinbeauty:

But see, that is not worship… we don’t pray to these statues

No one prays TO a statue. People who so choose (it’s not required) may ask someone in heaven to pray for him while in front of a statue of that person, but he is not praying TO the statue. HUGE difference.

or use them as concentration objects when we pray to who they represent.

I’m not quite sure what’s wrong with this. I remeber when my husband and I were engaged we were separated for about a year. Sometimes, if I were talking to him on the phone in a room where I had a picture of him I would look at the picture while we talked. I wasn’t talking TO the picture, nor did I think the picture was actually my fiance. I just liked having his face in front of me while we talked. “Concentration objects”, as you call them, is sort of the same thing. Those who so choose (it’s not a requirement) might like to look at a picture of the person they are asking for prayer. Of course, it’s not a photograph, but that doesn’t really matter. The person is not asking the picture itself to pray for him, it’s just a visual.

We don’t have songs we specifically sing about them or to them

There are songs about statues? I’ve never heard of anyone singing TO a statue. That would just be weird.

.

We don’t bow to them.

No one bows TO a statue. Those who so choose (it’s not a requirement) may bow TOWARD a statue out of respect for the person the statue represents, but no Catholic ever bows TO the statue as though the statue itself IS the person.

And we don’t tend to make pilgramages to them.

Sure we do. People travel to New York to see the Statue of Libery. People travel to Washington DC to see the Lincoln Memorial, etc.

If touched we don’t expect ourselves to be healed either.

God doesn’t use all objects as conduits of his healing grace, but he certainly uses some. In scripture He even used Peter’s shadow (Acts 5:15). Not exactly an object, but the same principle applies.

In Christ,
Nancy